Posted by steve on February 28, 2001, at 13:51:46
In reply to Re: Which is least bad: Zyprexa or Risperdal » SLS, posted by steve on February 28, 2001, at 12:26:00
Since I mentioned that Lilly had engaged in criminal behavior, I thought I'd provide a link:
http://insulinchoice.org/news/star_prozac.htm
Go to oraflex, and read:
"The evidence concerned Lilly's 1985 guilty plea to 25 criminal counts for failing to tell the U.S. Food and Drug Administration about deaths and illnesses of patients taking a Lilly arthritis drug called Oraflex, plus related charges."
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
> As with many other subjects, this has been mentioned on the board before. If you want to ban all posts about topics that have been brought up before, you can see if Dr. Bob will, but P-Babble would be pretty short then. The reason I posted it again is because I doubt that those who posted with new questions are aware of it.
>
> IMO the bottom line is this: anti-psychotics increase the extracellular levels of dopamine. When dopamine is metabolized outside the cell, it results in the release of neurotoxins, so called free radicals. Free radicals eradicate brain cells. Some things are very simple, and rooted in the laws of nature. Any kind of brain damage is not good. Things fall when I drop them. Accepting such simple truths doesn't mean that I have to do MRIs, or drop everything I see just to make sure that there might be one time when a bowling ball actually does gravitate upwards.
>
> Patients should be told that losses in the region of 7% per year, yes that is seven percent per year have been reported in some dopamine intensive parts of the brain. Not telling patients so is unethical, and should be criminal IMHO. Eli Lilly has been found guilty of criminal violations of safety regulations before.
>
> And yes any unnatural changes to the brain are by definition brain damage, whether they are minute, as caused by say marijuana, or severe, as caused by shooting yourself through the prefrontal cortex. You can survive both, but neither is particularly intelligent.
>
> Unnatural changes can also encompass hypertrophy, I think that's what brain tumors are.
>
> Peace to you, and your (remaining) neurons.
>
> S.
>
>
> > Please be careful.
> >
> >
> > Haven't we been through this already?
> >
> > I believe so.
> >
> >
> > Three problems:
> >
> > #1 These studies are of patients suffering from schizophrenia, a disorder for which the natural course involves a loss of brain tissue.
> >
> > #2 You are using a "bibliography" that seems biased in its selection of annotations to support the claim stated in its title. The author found what he was looking for. The author shows his transparant agenda with his somewhat passionate use of the term "brain damage". By the way, the ONLY appearance of the word "damage" is that of the author's in his paraphrasing with the following exceptions:
> >
> > - Previous brain INJURY and how such might impact upon subsequent neuroleptic treatment.
> >
> > - PROPOSED oxidative free-radical damage and the accumulation of glutamatergic exitotoxic substances in an attempt to explain tardive dyskinisia. NO DATA was offered. Both of these things can occur with a multitude of drugs.
> >
> > #3 The results of a thorough literature search will demonstrate equivocal and contradictory data and conclusions regarding this issue.
> >
> >
> > Just what sort of research review have you conducted for *yourself*?
> >
> > When this question came up a year or so ago, I did conduct a review of the literature *myself*, that I felt was well balanced (of course?). I am not in the mood to summarize it here, but to use the term "brain damage" is not applicable. "Changes in the brain" is better - especially when they are desireable and/or reversible. You should be able to find my piece if you include "basal ganglia" or "striatum" in you keywords.
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > FROM THE BIBLIOGRAPHY YOU CITED !
> >
> > I capitalized the words or phrases I thought were particular salient with regard to your supposition.
> >
> > This review cites AN INCREASE AND NOT A SHRINKAGE in the size of VARIOUS STRUCTURES of the brain due to exposure to neuroleptics.
> >
> > HYPERTROPHY: Growth or increase in size
> >
> >
> > 1998 MRI Studies demonstrate structural BRAIN CHANGES in schizophrenia patients treated with both standard and "atypical" neuroleptic drugs:
> >
> > Non-industry sponsored researchers are coming to realize that this rebound reaction to antipsychotic drugs-both standard and the newer atypicals-- may be so great, it could be causing structural brain changes such as swelling of the brain. Gur, et al., (abstract below) conducted an NIMH-funded MRI imaging study to monitor changes in the size of the basal ganglia and thalamic regions of the brain in schizophrenia patients treated with neuroleptic drugs. They compared them to a group of patients who were never exposed to neuroleptic drugs, and to a group of healthy comparison subjects: As they put it: "Differences between groups and correlations between subcortical volumes and dose of medication indicate that exposure to neuroleptics is associated with HYPERTROPHY...it appears that patients treated with neuroleptics show HYPERTROPHY relative to their neuroleptic-naive counterparts and to healthy comparison subjects."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Haven't we been through this already?
> >
> > I believe so.
> >
> >
> > Three problems:
> >
> > #1 These studies are of patients suffering from schizophrenia, a disorder for which the natural course involves a loss of brain tissue.
> >
> > #2 You are using a "bibliography" that seems biased in its selection of annotations to support the claim stated in its title. The author found what he was looking for. The author shows his transparant agenda with his somewhat passionate use of the term "brain damage". By the way, the ONLY appearance of the word "damage" is that of the author's in his paraphrasing with the following exceptions:
> >
> > - Previous brain INJURY and how such might impact upon subsequent neuroleptic treatment.
> >
> > - PROPOSED oxidative free-radical damage and the accumulation of glutamatergic exitotoxic substances in an attempt to explain tardive dyskinisia. NO DATA was offered. Both of these things can occur with a multitude of drugs.
> >
> > #3 The results of a thorough literature search will demonstrate equivocal and contradictory data and conclusions regarding this issue.
> >
> >
> > Just what sort of research review have you conducted for *yourself*?
> >
> > When this question came up a year or so ago, I did conduct a review of the literature *myself*, that I felt was well balanced (of course?). I am not in the mood to summarize it here, but to use the term "brain damage" is not applicable. "Changes in the brain" is better - especially when they are desireable and/or reversible. You should be able to find my piece if you include "basal ganglia" or "striatum" in you keywords.
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > FROM THE BIBLIOGRAPHY YOU CITED !
> >
> > I capitalized the words or phrases I thought were particular salient with regard to your supposition.
> >
> > This review cites AN INCREASE AND NOT A SHRINKAGE in the size of VARIOUS STRUCTURES of the brain due to exposure to neuroleptics.
> >
> > HYPERTROPHY: Growth, increase
> >
> >
> > 1998 MRI Studies demonstrate structural BRAIN CHANGES in schizophrenia patients treated with both standard and "atypical" neuroleptic drugs:
> >
> > Non-industry sponsored researchers are coming to realize that this rebound reaction to antipsychotic drugs-both standard and the newer atypicals-- may be so great, it could be causing structural brain changes such as swelling of the brain. Gur, et al., (abstract below) conducted an NIMH-funded MRI imaging study to monitor changes in the size of the basal ganglia and thalamic regions of the brain in schizophrenia patients treated with neuroleptic drugs. They compared them to a group of patients who were never exposed to neuroleptic drugs, and to a group of healthy comparison subjects: As they put it: "Differences between groups and correlations between subcortical volumes and dose of medication indicate that exposure to neuroleptics is associated with HYPERTROPHY...it appears that patients treated with neuroleptics show HYPERTROPHY relative to their neuroleptic-naive counterparts and to healthy comparison subjects."
poster:steve
thread:55031
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010221/msgs/55125.html