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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by qbsbrown on July 19, 2009, at 15:42:15
In reply to Re: Anyone had a successful rapid detox from benzos? » qbsbrown, posted by SLS on July 19, 2009, at 14:05:22
> > Never tried the gabitril. I never did well on meds that touch histamine well though. Maybe I'll ask doc about it.
>
> Gabitril is not histaminergic. It is a GABA reuptake inhibitor. It is kind of a weird drug, though. Some people respond well to it as an anxiolytic/hypnotic, some people experience increased anxiety and brain fog.
>
> > Lyrica made me feel high, depersonalized, and a big false sense of reality, lol.
>
> How many days did you take it for?Oh, I took Lyrica for a while. Started low, doc even had me at 900mgs. It was a total false sense of well being, and feeling stoned. That was the second toughest med to come off of after benzos.
> > I am familiar with depakote and have access to it.
> >
> > Is it counterproductive that Depakote works on, and enhances GABA when I'm trying to get off benzos?
>
> I don't believe so. It does not affect the receptor directly.
>
> > My CNS is already damaged and compromised, would depakote just mess it up further?
>
> I think the worst thing that can happen is that Depakote produces a mild dysphoria, but not a true depression. This disappears as soon as you stop taking it.Yes, Depakote in the past did induce dysphoria in me, just as every other psych med has, hence me trying to get off of them.
> > How much Depakote do you think that I would need to take? It usally wipes my emotions, memory, and cognitive functioning, but it might be a means to an end.
>
> Wild guess? 250-500mg. Maybe even as little as 125mg. You will have to experiment.Wow, that's low. The docs had me up to even 1750mgs at one time.
I wonder if a lower dose could do the trick for kicking benzos. I know for sure at around 2000mgs I wouldn't be able to feel any benzo wd, but i'd be out of commission for a while.
> With Depakote, you are not swapping one addictive drug with another. However, I would not discontinue the drug until you are completely off the BZD. Withdrawing from a BZD and an anticonvulsant simultaneously might increase the risk of seizure.
Thanks Scott.
Why do you think that benzo forums, are totally against using other meds to help wean off of the benzos? Granted there hasn't been a lot of success or controlled studies with meds working for benzo wd, or else i guess we'd all be on them.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on July 19, 2009, at 17:12:38
In reply to Re: Anyone had a successful rapid detox from benzos?, posted by qbsbrown on July 19, 2009, at 15:42:15
then again, when i was detoxed in the hospital last summer, i think they only used 500mgs of depakote. but when i got out, i quit the depakote right away, and severe wd kicked in w/ in days, racing thoughts came back, so i re-instated.
They also used an antipsychotic and an antidepressant, which i think both made worse, except helped the sleep.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on July 23, 2009, at 13:52:16
In reply to Re: Anyone had a successful rapid detox from benzos?, posted by qbsbrown on July 19, 2009, at 17:12:38
Looks like it is gaining ground for benzo wd in many clinics.
Some interesting success stories
http://www.drugtalk.com/depakote/index.htm?p=2
I've called my doc about it, I have some being sent to me, i think i'll give it a go.
Brian
Posted by SLS on July 23, 2009, at 15:32:46
In reply to Scott, Depakote seems to be working, posted by qbsbrown on July 23, 2009, at 13:52:16
Thanks for the link.
I am very excited to see how you do with the Depakote. Good luck.
- Scott
Posted by qbsbrown on July 23, 2009, at 18:03:39
In reply to Re: Scott, Depakote seems to be working - Woohoo! » qbsbrown, posted by SLS on July 23, 2009, at 15:32:46
I really hope it helps. This is my 5th taper attempt, and by far the most difficult. Sometimes it's almost funny how out of my mind i am from it.
I've been reading that some very prominent rehab facilities are using it more commonly, apparently 1 called Silver Springs.
I spoke with the psychiatrist, and he said if the taper is really difficult, to give it a go.
Now I wonder the dosage? He said 500mgs ER. I'd like to know what they use at silver springs. I read another study saying 750mgs.
So not sure how much. We'll see how/if I can tolerate the 500mgs.
Like i said, i tried the trileptal, and it just made me and my withdrawal symptoms worse.
I've taken depakote before (chronic migraines), so i'm quite familiar w/ it. And I had taken much higher than 500mgs before.
Posted by qbsbrown on July 23, 2009, at 18:44:49
In reply to Re: Scott, Depakote seems to be working - Woohoo!, posted by qbsbrown on July 23, 2009, at 18:03:39
Come to think of it, I believe that i was taken off of valium 30mgs in 1 week w/ 500mgs depakote last summer. My problem was is that i quit the depakote right after the valium, come to find out, you need to hold on to it for 4-6 weeks after the taper.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on July 23, 2009, at 21:13:47
In reply to Re: Scott, Depakote seems to be working - Woohoo!, posted by qbsbrown on July 23, 2009, at 18:44:49
Ok, so i know all of ashtons's work, and all the benzo sites that advocating going extremely slow (and not adding any meds), which is all i can do on valium solo (dropping 1mg every 2 weeks), perhaps faster on depakote. I mean, i have the most severe and uncommon wd symptoms. It's total tolerance withdrawal, it's at a point to where I'm afraid to leave my friends new apartment in fear that i'll get lost, that's how confused my brain is.
When you are at this point in benzo tolerance and poop out, is there really a point in maintaining going slow? Or with your theory of kindling, and kind of how i'm feeling, is to jump on an anticonvulsant and getting it over with.
Of course this would not be advocated by any of the benzo forums and benzo experts, but it just kida feels like it's time to get it done and over with.
They call detoxes, especially using phenobarbitol ones "barbaric", but it feels more barbaric for me to carry out this for another year, not be able to get off the couch and leave the apartment.
I mean, if I did it in 1 week last summer, and felt 1000 times better than now, is it maybe time for a quicker process?
Brian
Posted by SLS on July 24, 2009, at 7:07:19
In reply to Scott, taper rate?, posted by qbsbrown on July 23, 2009, at 21:13:47
Personally, I feel that the 10% reduction every 4-5 weeks is absurd. It is an unnecessarily protracted process.
Once you get the Depakote on board, I think you will be able to determine a reasonable taper rate based upon the presence or absence of withdrawal symptoms. The key to prevent kindling is to disallow withdrawal symptoms to persist for any more than a few hours. If you feel them emerge, simply take a small amount of medications - just enough to cause the symptoms to disappear. I use fractions of pills to accomplish this.
It is interesting that Trileptal made things worse. I'll need to ponder that for awhile.
- Scott
Posted by qbsbrown on July 24, 2009, at 10:29:24
In reply to Re: Scott, taper rate? » qbsbrown, posted by SLS on July 24, 2009, at 7:07:19
> Personally, I feel that the 10% reduction every 4-5 weeks is absurd. It is an unnecessarily protracted process.
>
> Once you get the Depakote on board, I think you will be able to determine a reasonable taper rate based upon the presence or absence of withdrawal symptoms. The key to prevent kindling is to disallow withdrawal symptoms to persist for any more than a few hours. If you feel them emerge, simply take a small amount of medications - just enough to cause the symptoms to disappear. I use fractions of pills to accomplish this.
>
> It is interesting that Trileptal made things worse. I'll need to ponder that for awhile.
>
>
> - ScottYeah, most of the benzo experts and benzo forums advocate going that slow.
Oh yeah, even dropping the 1mg every 2 weeks, i for sure can feel the drop, when i started dropping 2mgs at beginning, it was brutal (but i started in severe tolerance). I am extremely chemically sensitive, and do not tolerate medications well, hence me wanting to be off.
Oh, well I feel the withdrawal symptoms all day long, 24/7 craziness/madness/psychtic of obsessive/intrusive/racing thoughts/confusion, there is no pause and/or break. No updosing or any amount of a benzo would help me at this point.
From wake til sleep (and I even wake up at 4-5am). Such hypersensitivity to light/sound, that any light creeps in the windows, even w/ an eye mask on, and i'm up, and it's off to the races w/ the thoughts.
IT was ok, until i stupidly dropped the trileptal.But like I had said, the trileptal was having a paradoxical reaction (which i have to all meds, and adverse) like antidepressants would make me more depressed, and more compulsive behavior), where as it was inducing almost a rapid cycling bipolarity, hypomanic type symptoms in morning, depression in afternoon, and normalcy at night.
So if Depakote can bring me any relief I would be forever grateful to the gods.
I don't know if it is worth enduring these types of symptoms for a year. But I know that w/o the help of another drug, I can not decrease any faster.
Sadly, here is a list of WD symptoms that I have. I'm picking these off of the yahoo benzo site (i think it's the largest group). Mind you they are extremely anti-med/psychiatry/or using other meds to help wean you off.
My laundry list of symptoms are brutal
aching muscles
Agitated sight
Agoraphobia
Allergic reactions to foods previously tolerated
Anxiety
Body temperature fluctuations,
Body temperature reading higher or lower than 98.6
Blurred vision
Confusion
Dehydration
Depersonalisation (a feeling of not knowing who you are)
Depression
Derealization
Disorientation
Dry mouth
Dysphoria
Emotional blunting
Exercise - exacerbating all benzo symptoms,
Extreme thirst
Heart palpitations (these have mostly ceased)
Hypersensitivity to light, sound, and other stimuli
inability to comprehend the simplest things,
Inability to concentrate,
inability to cope with a lot of information
Insomnia
Intrusive thoughts,
Iris in eyes changes colour
Loss of interest in people and/or things
Muscle spasms
Muscle tone, wastage
Muscle weakness
Obsessions
Obsessive behaviour
Panic attacks
Paranoia
Perspiring
Racing thoughts
Rapid weight loss
Repetitive thoughts
Suicidal feelings
Thinking you are dying
Thinking you have some awful disease other than benzo withdrawal,
Thirst
Thyroid disturbancesGood times. Hope you have any/some suggestions. You can now see why I consider a detox facility, lol.
Brian
Posted by SLS on July 24, 2009, at 13:16:50
In reply to Re: Scott, taper rate?, posted by qbsbrown on July 24, 2009, at 10:29:24
> > Personally, I feel that the 10% reduction every 4-5 weeks is absurd. It is an unnecessarily protracted process.
I guess I have to rethink this issue.
Of course, I wish such a long taper period weren't necessary, but perhaps it is.
It seems that those people who take the longest to discontinue a drug have the worst withdrawal. This can be looked at two ways without having more information to work with. Is the extended length of discontinuation a result of the degree of tolerance and withdrawal severity or is the withdrawal severity and persistence the result of a protracted discontinuation schedule? Perhaps the optimum rate of taper is greater than what might seem intuitive.
Kindling?
I don't know.
Now that you are already kindled (in my way of thinking), you will be extremely sensitive to dose reductions. It may not matter whether you drop by 2mg or 4mg. You might experience the same degree of withdrawal symptoms regardless.
If it were me, I would try to use an anticonvulsant drug like Depakote to reduce the severity of withdrawal symptoms along with the time it takes to discontinue. I would consider it an experiment. If it fails, either choose another anticonvulsant, or move on to another strategy. Maybe there are food supplements like magnesium that would help. Magnesium competes for the glutamate NMDA binding site and reduces neuronal excitability. There are people who post on the Alternative board who can be of help with this.
All I know is that I would not be willing to tolerate the experience of withdrawal symptoms that you have. I would sooner discontinue a drug by "feel" than use some sort of rigid taper schedule.
- Scott
Posted by qbsbrown on July 24, 2009, at 14:12:25
In reply to Re: Scott, taper rate? » qbsbrown, posted by SLS on July 24, 2009, at 13:16:50
> > > Personally, I feel that the 10% reduction every 4-5 weeks is absurd. It is an unnecessarily protracted process.
>
> I guess I have to rethink this issue.
>
> Of course, I wish such a long taper period weren't necessary, but perhaps it is.
>
> It seems that those people who take the longest to discontinue a drug have the worst withdrawal. This can be looked at two ways without having more information to work with. Is the extended length of discontinuation a result of the degree of tolerance and withdrawal severity or is the withdrawal severity and persistence the result of a protracted discontinuation schedule? Perhaps the optimum rate of taper is greater than what might seem intuitive.
>
> Kindling?
>
> I don't know.
>
> Now that you are already kindled (in my way of thinking), you will be extremely sensitive to dose reductions. It may not matter whether you drop by 2mg or 4mg. You might experience the same degree of withdrawal symptoms regardless.
>
> If it were me, I would try to use an anticonvulsant drug like Depakote to reduce the severity of withdrawal symptoms along with the time it takes to discontinue. I would consider it an experiment. If it fails, either choose another anticonvulsant, or move on to another strategy. Maybe there are food supplements like magnesium that would help. Magnesium competes for the glutamate NMDA binding site and reduces neuronal excitability. There are people who post on the Alternative board who can be of help with this.
>
> All I know is that I would not be willing to tolerate the experience of withdrawal symptoms that you have. I would sooner discontinue a drug by "feel" than use some sort of rigid taper schedule.
>
>
> - ScottWell, in my case, I really hope the Depakote works. It's probably a crap shoot. Like I had said, I went from 30mgs to 10mgs in 10 days while on trileptal, but stupidly quit the trileptal (cause it was inducing rapid cycling type symptoms), and i was hit like a ton of bricks, and to re-instate 30mgs. Now when i tried to re-introduce the trileptal, the brain was rejecting it (hates chemicals) and was making withdrawal worse, plus the rapid cycling was coming back.
Depakote i was able to come off in a week last summer, just that i quit it at the same time, should have held.
It always seemed much smoother, grounding, and had less anxiety than trileptal, and was more tolerable.
Yeah, it does make me stupid, introverted, some of the fun side effects, but perhaps not on a small dose of 500.
For sure worth a shot. And yes, a year of this hell is unimaginable as I've already dealt with it for 4 months. It seems pretty barbaric to me.
It seems for detox, that either tegretol/trileptal, depakote, or phenobarbitol are the choices.
Thanks Scott.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on July 25, 2009, at 15:16:02
In reply to Re: Scott, taper rate?, posted by qbsbrown on July 24, 2009, at 14:12:25
I took 500mgs last night. For the first time in a long time, got a little naturally tired. Best sleep that I've had in a long time.
I woke up and wanted to go out and do things, for the first time in a long time.
I was able to leave the house, and go for a ride, run errands etc.
You were right about 1 thing; total dysphoria. Just felt emotionally crappy for every second.
So it seems like a trade off. I could not take it, and not be able to leave the apartment, and to the year long taper, or put up w/ the dysphoria, and perhaps get this over with quicker.
I don't in any way crave taking the valium, or want to take more of it, if anything, i loath it. So there's no addiction going on, but the dependence of the mind and body.
I wonder how much quicker i could taper if I continue. Does 1mg a week sound right? Or would you even try to go faster than that?
How fast do you think you would try? I could try 1mg a week, seeing as i've been doing 1mg every 2 weeks. Typically for the first week after a cut, im pretty messed up, and then it settles a tiny bit for the second week.I mean if a med makes you feel crappy, and provides no relief, is there a point in going super slow, barring that i don't wanna risk psychosis, which has felt very close the whole time.
Sure my CNS is messed up and compromised, but i don't see how going very slow will help allieviate anything. It will only begin to heal once off the drug.
I appreciate your thoughts.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on July 25, 2009, at 15:48:35
In reply to I took some depakote Scott, posted by qbsbrown on July 25, 2009, at 15:16:02
But it has helped immensly. Not in severe shock and fear, able to communicate w/ other etc.
Do you think hold 500mgs for a while, or give 1000mgs a go?
I noticed that one benzo expert doc uses 750mgs for his detox. My doc said i could do 500 for a week, then 1000 if I like.
But when they thought i was bipolar, i took 1500-2000, even as starting doses.
But perhaps w/ my brain/body being in shock, and chemically sensitive, it's more beneficial to at least wait a week?
Posted by qbsbrown on July 25, 2009, at 15:55:00
In reply to Re: I took some depakote Scott, posted by qbsbrown on July 25, 2009, at 15:48:35
Oh, and has taken away a LOT of paranoia. I would be too affraid to eat certain/many foods that i was having adverse effects to, so have been avoiding many things out of paranoia.
Today, I just saw something, and was hungry, so ate it w/o fear.
A great feeling!
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on July 25, 2009, at 17:26:23
In reply to Re: I took some depakote Scott, posted by qbsbrown on July 25, 2009, at 15:55:00
Except that i still had an allergic reaction to the food. There are only a handful of foods i can tolerate. Damn! A little set back.
Crap,
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on July 27, 2009, at 1:39:24
In reply to Re: I took some depakote Scott, posted by qbsbrown on July 25, 2009, at 17:26:23
Ok, 2 doses and I'm done. Like I said , SO chemically sensitive. Never had such horrific depression and dysphoria, almost felt like a nervous breakdown at the dog park, everything looked depressing and horrific.
What is your opinion on a phenobarbital detox? I know it was banned in the UK and deemed "barbaric", but is still commonly used in the US. I think dragging this out for a year would be more barbaric.
Then again, I've been reading my old posts here, and back in '04 I was begging to get off klonopin, and was talking about how chemically sensitive i was/am, and couldn't tolerate them.
So not sure if the gabitril and/or pheno would work
Regards,
Brian
Posted by SLS on July 27, 2009, at 6:02:33
In reply to Depakote a no go Scott, posted by qbsbrown on July 27, 2009, at 1:39:24
> Ok, 2 doses and I'm done.
Crap.
What about Neurontin? It seems to be effective for alcohol withdrawal at higher dosages. I'll have to look into phenytoin.
> Like I said , SO chemically sensitive. Never had such horrific depression and dysphoria, almost felt like a nervous breakdown at the dog park, everything looked depressing and horrific.
Wow. That is worse than I thought would occur so quickly at a low dosage.
> What is your opinion on a phenobarbital detox?
Would you enter a clinical facility to try it? I really don't know anything about it. However, if it is standard practice with a high success rate, perhaps it is time to stop playing with the other anticonvulsants.
> I know it was banned in the UK and deemed "barbaric", but is still commonly used in the US. I think dragging this out for a year would be more barbaric.
>
> Then again, I've been reading my old posts here, and back in '04 I was begging to get off klonopin, and was talking about how chemically sensitive i was/am, and couldn't tolerate them.
>
> So not sure if the gabitril and/or pheno would workTopamax (topiramate), too.
I imagine you would know quickly whether a drug would work or not. I doubt you would have to wait much more than a week to determine efficacy.
- Scott
Posted by qbsbrown on July 27, 2009, at 14:16:27
In reply to Re: Depakote a no go Scott, posted by SLS on July 27, 2009, at 6:02:33
> What about Neurontin? It seems to be effective for alcohol withdrawal at higher dosages. I'll have to look into phenytoin.
>
Neurontin has given me random suicidal ideology out of nowhere 2 times before. Like i was perfectly fine, then i'd be laying in bed, imagining me going to walmart and buying a gun. SCARY crap. And I'm not a suicidal guy. Like i said, i have bad adverse reactions to all meds> > What is your opinion on a phenobarbital detox?
>
Not sure about the pheno detox. I've never tried a barbituate before, but yeah, i hate the anticonvulsants.
> Topamax (topiramate), too.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12858324?ordinalpos=13&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17071548?ordinalpos=8&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15510234?ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
>
> I imagine you would know quickly whether a drug would work or not. I doubt you would have to wait much more than a week to determine efficacy.Interesting on the topamax. All that i remember it doing was giving me derealization, and making me stupid. Took a couple of doses and threw it away like most meds, lol.
Let me know if you find any decent info on the phenobarbitol detox, or the flumenzil.
Thanks for the help. Sadly it looks, that the only way out of this, is through.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on July 27, 2009, at 14:28:21
In reply to Re: Depakote a no go Scott, posted by SLS on July 27, 2009, at 6:02:33
I remember asking the doc for neurontin in '05 for benzo wd. And felt better immediately. Can't remember why i threw it away so fast, lol.
Maybe a try, but the suicidal ideology scares me. First time i had ever envisioned or pictured me carrying it out. And i wasn't not, or am not even suicidal, lol!
Posted by qbsbrown on July 27, 2009, at 14:31:29
In reply to Re: Depakote a no go Scott, posted by qbsbrown on July 27, 2009, at 14:28:21
tegretol (carbamazepine) seems to be option number 1. I'm imagining that i'd have the same reaction to it as trileptal? Then again, i had exact opposite reactions between celexa and lexapro
Posted by SLS on July 27, 2009, at 15:29:06
In reply to Re: Depakote a no go Scott, posted by qbsbrown on July 27, 2009, at 14:31:29
> tegretol (carbamazepine) seems to be option number 1. I'm imagining that i'd have the same reaction to it as trileptal? Then again, i had exact opposite reactions between celexa and lexapro
I like the Tegretol option. It is not activating as is Trileptal, so perhaps you won't develop agitation or other psychiatric side effects.
- Scott
Posted by qbsbrown on July 27, 2009, at 16:37:15
In reply to Re: Depakote a no go Scott, posted by SLS on July 27, 2009, at 15:29:06
So you think that Tegretol would not act the same as Trileptal? Which was basically inducing a rapid cycling bipolar type symptoms in me.
Or would you try Gabitril first (given my reaction to trileptal)?
Dr. Heather Aston, who doesn't advocate using meds for withdrawal, except an antidepressant if suicidal says, "There have been some reports that gabapentin (Neurontin), tiagabine (Gabitril) and possibly pregabalin (yet to be licensed) help with sleep and anxiety in withdrawal. However, there have been no controlled trials and it is not clear whether these drugs themselves cause withdrawal effects. In practice additional drugs are seldom needed with very slow benzodiazepine tapering. Only in special situations there might be a place for an antidepressant, beta blocker, sedative antihistamine or anticonvulsant.
PS- Are there any good online pharmacies w/ no prescription required?
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on July 27, 2009, at 17:43:29
In reply to Re: Depakote a no go Scott, posted by qbsbrown on July 27, 2009, at 16:37:15
It seems that my gaba is so messed up, that anything that touches is, causes great depression, including depakote, niacinimide, and other supplements that effect gaba.
I don't know, perhaps one could have the same effect as depakote that i was able to get out of the house and do things (totally agoraphobic), but just not make me see horrible ugly things, and depressing thoughts.
Trileptal made me see ugly things, and depressive thoughts, hence me worrying about tegretol.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on July 27, 2009, at 18:31:51
In reply to Scott, which one acts on GABA the least, posted by qbsbrown on July 27, 2009, at 17:43:29
It says that Gabitril binds to histamine H1 and serotonin 5HT1B,
Anything serotonic, even a small amount of 5htp makes me feel depressed, and anything that touches histamine makes me feel super groggy and hung over.
Am I screwed? LOL. Seems that anything that I try just makes me worse. But I feel like I'm floating, on an acid/lsd trip, and that anticonvulsants make me feel more grounded, connected to the earth.
I can't even drive right now. My friend needed help putting a bed together, which there is no way my withdrawal mind/brain can comprehend how to do so. On 2 doses of depakote, i felt grounded, could remember some portuguese, paranoia lessened, and i told my friend to have me put the bed together before it wore off, lol. But the depression, sights, images were just too much to bear.
Posted by SLS on July 27, 2009, at 19:09:04
In reply to Gabitril, posted by qbsbrown on July 27, 2009, at 18:31:51
Gabitril (tiagabine) is a GABA reuptake inhibitor. That is not to say that it wouldn't be an ideal drug for you, but if you wish to avoid GABAergic drugs, Gabatril would be one to stay away from.
Topamax and Phenobarbital both modulate GABA receptors, but don't necessarily stimulate them directly. Topamax is looking more and more attractive. It works primarily by blocking glutamate receptors (AMPA/Kainate). Glutamate neurons are probably kindled in your condition. Starting at a low dosage and working up to 100mg gradually should minimize cognitive disturbances. This was my experience on two occasions.
- Scott
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