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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 23:26:28
Hello all
the recent posts are getting very frustrating here lately..
I guess we cant change the world..
my summary is this..
IF WE KEEP DOING WHAT WE ARE DOING , WE WILL KEEP GETTING WHAT WE ARE GETTING..and that is the bottom line here.
The most effective weapon we have in banishing depression /anxiety/neurotic behavior from your life is your own determination
Healthy thinking is a HABIT... just like neurotic thinking is a habit.Its about CHOICE... that is our true gift that is in all of us.. we can choose to believe we are victims or we CHOOSE to be the Survivor.. Every time we say we have a mental illness we will... NO this isnt denial talking..its REALITY..
Yes there is depression,anxiety and all that mood stuff of course .. but my point being is HOW we treat /cure it.. not HOW we mask it..
I hope we all can be happy and free from meds.. They have their place . but they should be used very conservatively , which at this time and age when it comes to mood altering drugs they are NOT..
Yes I will and have taken other meds for an infection, indigestion, pain, etc.. but again within reason and NOT indefinitely.. much like a broken bone.. we wear the cast until the bone heals then we TAKE IT OFF right??? so how come mood is any different..
I apologize for my ranting and raving. but this topic is really frustrating me to no end.!!All I know is im off the REmeron and IT DIDNT SAVE MY LIFE...IT DAMN NEAR KILLED ME AND MADE ME INTO A HOMOCIDAL MANIAC WITH FRIGHTENING DAYDREAMS... AND ITS SUPPOSE TO HELP PEOPLE??
NO., I HELPED MYSELF THANKYOU... MY WAY ...
take care all
God Bless
Musky
Posted by SLS on October 2, 2006, at 8:43:08
In reply to Staying off Remeron, posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 23:26:28
Probably the best way to stay off antidepressants is to stay on them.
At least stay on them long enough so that the terrain of the brain is changed substantially that it remains changed once the drug is discontinued.
Also, taper the dosage of the drug very gradually over the course of at least 4-6 weeks. I would go longer for higher dosages or longer treatment duration. This is to prevent a rebound depressive relapse.
How long should you stay on antidepressants?
9 months as a minimum for a first depressive episode. Longer for subsequent episodes. 12-14 months for a second episode; 18 months was suggested recently.
Another way to stay off of antidepressants is to reduce the biological pressure placed on the brain by reducing psychosocial stress. This often involves psychotherapy. However, it can include things like changing jobs, navigating relationships, avoiding weddings, sending children off to college, etc.
Depression represents a spectrum of experiences and relative contributions of the biological and psychological. Don't be afraid to treat the whole person.
If you are already on antidepressants, don't be in a rush to come off of them. Evaluate your overall situation and use your intellect to make logical decisions. Use the information provided by sources you deem responsible, if not reliable. If you decide to discontinue an antidepressant, use a gradual taper. Abrupt discontinuation (cold-turkey) might actually worsen or prolong the withdrawal syndrome.
This board was started to provide a forum to offer education and support regarding the withdrawal from psychiatric medications. I don't think it was meant to be restricted to those who were determined not to return to drug treatment. It is not an "anti-drug" board.
- Scott
Posted by Philip N. on October 2, 2006, at 9:41:05
In reply to Re: Staying off Antidepressants, posted by SLS on October 2, 2006, at 8:43:08
Hi Scott.
I quit cold turkey back in December after a 9 year history with SSRIs. In your opinion could that have impacted a return to Depression/Anxiety @ 6 months. Would getting back on them and maybe doing a very slow withdrawal if and when possibly offer a greater chance at success or does it matter? When someone cold turkeys does that increase the chance for relapse?
Thanks.....Philip
Posted by SLS on October 2, 2006, at 10:16:39
In reply to Re: Staying off Antidepressants » SLS, posted by Philip N. on October 2, 2006, at 9:41:05
> I quit cold turkey back in December after a 9 year history with SSRIs.
Gosh.
> In your opinion could that have impacted a return to Depression/Anxiety @ 6 months.
That would be highly speculative.
In my mind's eye, I can see how it might be possible.
I know this is exactly the question that you are struggling with. I don't think anyone but the most pioneering of scientists would feel confident in giving you an answer. My answer to you is that the abrupt discontinuation of antidepressants can be counterproductive.
> Would getting back on them and maybe doing a very slow withdrawal if and when possibly offer a greater chance at success or does it matter?
I think a gradual taper offers a greater chance at preventing a relapse.
> When someone cold turkeys does that increase the chance for relapse?
I believe so. I think it really opens the door for a rebound depression that might spread and perhaps blossom into a true relapse. It is a paroxsysmal destabilizing event that must surely produce chaos within homeostatic feedback loops. Depression can be an illness of oscillation. Allowing the system to drop so precipitously might swing the pendulum in the wrong direction.
I think the bottom line is that the appearance of your depression was LATENT to the discontinuation of antidepressants by 6 months. It is therefore not a withdrawal rebound depression. It is a true relapse and must be treated as such. Like I said before, knowing me, I would probably try one more time to restart antidepressants and attempt to discontinue them again. Yes, I would have to treat the relapse as a second episode. This would mean a minimum of 12-14 months of treatment AFTER full remission is achieved before beginning a gradual taper that should probably take 6-8 weeks. The 6-8 weeks is just a figure I came up with as I wrote this. I would be interested to hear other proposals.
The question for you is how much longer should you wait? Will the things that you are doing to combat depression right now begin to work so as to make drug treatment unnecessary? I don't know. Can you forecast how much longer your life can be maintained if things were to remain the way they are right now? Now subtract 2-4 weeks from that (that's how long it might take a drug to work again). That's how long you can wait. Sounds logical to me, anyway. It may not be.
- Scott
Posted by Philip N. on October 2, 2006, at 10:27:49
In reply to Re: Staying off Antidepressants » Philip N., posted by SLS on October 2, 2006, at 10:16:39
Hi Scott.
The last one I was on was Lexapro. I know all of the SSRIs are similar but I don't see much in these posts about Prozac. My doctor and I thought that if I return to the medicine I might try going back with Prozac. Some have indicated they would go back to what was working but I used Prozac in the beginning and I don't recall anything major (I know things could be different now). Do you know much on Prozac and do you think that this would be a good choice from Lexapro?
Thanks.......Philip
Posted by SLS on October 2, 2006, at 10:57:30
In reply to Re: Staying off Antidepressants » SLS, posted by Philip N. on October 2, 2006, at 10:27:49
> Hi Scott.
>
> The last one I was on was Lexapro. I know all of the SSRIs are similar but I don't see much in these posts about Prozac. My doctor and I thought that if I return to the medicine I might try going back with Prozac. Some have indicated they would go back to what was working but I used Prozac in the beginning and I don't recall anything major (I know things could be different now). Do you know much on Prozac and do you think that this would be a good choice from Lexapro?
>
> Thanks.......Philip
What is the rationale for NOT using Lexapro again?What is it about Prozac that makes it the most attractive candidate to try next?
The SSRIs are similar in name or concept only. They are truly different drugs that can have profoundly different effects in the same person.
- Scott
Posted by Philip N. on October 2, 2006, at 11:13:07
In reply to Re: Staying off Antidepressants » Philip N., posted by SLS on October 2, 2006, at 10:57:30
The main rationale was that it is used alot to aid in withdrawal from other SSRIs and I thought this might remotely have an impact on any future withdrawal(possibly not as harsh). Plus I haven't seen alot of stuff on the site about it but I haven't researched as much either.
Thanks Scott!
Posted by SLS on October 2, 2006, at 12:44:35
In reply to Re: Staying off Antidepressants, posted by Philip N. on October 2, 2006, at 11:13:07
> The main rationale was that it is used alot to aid in withdrawal from other SSRIs and I thought this might remotely have an impact on any future withdrawal(possibly not as harsh). Plus I haven't seen alot of stuff on the site about it but I haven't researched as much either.
Prozac is a forgotton drug that is attracting renewed interest. It is definitely unique among the SSRIs for various reasons, and I can think of no reason why you should avoid it except for if you failed to respond to it in the past at a dosage of at least 40mg. It is more activating than the other SSRIs. I tried it a long time ago, but when no one was going above 20mg. Perhaps I should revisit at some point.
- Scott
Posted by Philip N. on October 2, 2006, at 14:00:19
In reply to Re: Staying off Antidepressants, posted by SLS on October 2, 2006, at 12:44:35
Can you remember if it seemed any easier for people to deal wth? Isn't it the only one still approved by the FDA (for what that's worth) for people younger than 18?
Thanks Scott.
Posted by Philip N. on October 2, 2006, at 14:05:16
In reply to Re: Staying off Antidepressants, posted by SLS on October 2, 2006, at 12:44:35
Hey Scott. I forgot to mention that I only took it at 20 mg. (Prozac)
Posted by SLS on October 2, 2006, at 14:25:48
In reply to Re: Staying off Antidepressants » SLS, posted by Philip N. on October 2, 2006, at 14:00:19
> Can you remember if it seemed any easier for people to deal wth? Isn't it the only one still approved by the FDA (for what that's worth) for people younger than 18?
Yes.
Doctors are going up to 60mg at this point.
I wish I had a list of the things that make Prozac different from the other SSRIs. For some reason, the details escape me. I think it is somewhat more noradrenergic than the others as it inhibits the reuptake weakly, and it blocks to some extent 5-HT2A/C receptors. It does have multiple actions.
- Scott
Posted by musky on October 3, 2006, at 1:55:07
In reply to Re: Staying off Antidepressants, posted by SLS on October 2, 2006, at 14:25:48
> If this is a posting board about withdrawl .. why are you talking about going back on and again trying yet another med??
And there is long term withdrawl by the way ask a heroine addict.. a/d are no different.. rebound anxiety is withdrawl... youve changed the brain chemistry of course the brain will react for many months..Good luck Philip... no one drug is any better that the other even drug companies admit to this..
we seem to keep going round and round in circles here.. not getting anywhereHang in there anyone out there who wants OFF the meds and needs encouragement through withdrawls..
Musky
> Can you remember if it seemed any easier for people to deal wth? Isn't it the only one still approved by the FDA (for what that's worth) for people younger than 18?
>
> Yes.
>
> Doctors are going up to 60mg at this point.
>
> I wish I had a list of the things that make Prozac different from the other SSRIs. For some reason, the details escape me. I think it is somewhat more noradrenergic than the others as it inhibits the reuptake weakly, and it blocks to some extent 5-HT2A/C receptors. It does have multiple actions.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on October 3, 2006, at 8:41:31
In reply to Re: Staying off Antidepressants, posted by musky on October 3, 2006, at 1:55:07
> > If this is a posting board about withdrawl .. why are you talking about going back on and again trying yet another med??
Because switching medications as prescribed by a physician often involves discontinuing one drug to be able to begin another. Sometimes, drug holidays are a desired goal. Sometimes, women desire to discontinue medications during pregnancy, but to return to them post-partem. Sometimes, people just want to see if they can do without them.
> no one drug is any better that the other even drug companies admit to this..
1) Please present evidence that drug companies admit to this.
2) There is sufficient evidence that Effexor is more effective than Prozac or Paxil.
* I'm pretty sure I could come up with more.
> we seem to keep going round and round in circles here.. not getting anywhereI disagree. I think we have progressed quite far.
> Hang in there anyone out there who wants OFF the meds and needs encouragement through withdrawls..
Yes. This is a place for education and support.
- Scott
Posted by musky on October 5, 2006, at 0:15:51
In reply to Re: Staying off Antidepressants, posted by SLS on October 3, 2006, at 8:41:31
> > >those articles you listed are research trials funded by drug companies.. so statistics arent what they seem to be.. It is a fact that drug companies do not let you have access to their RAW data when first doing trials. This is because if they did include ALL data the results would not be favorable for the outcome they want thereby not being able to market their product.
And N of # (sample size ) is not that large to be convincing. Also initial testing of a/d is done on rats..which is a totally different system and can hardly be compared to what goes on in a human brain..
HERE IS AN ARTICLE I SUGGEST YOU READ OVER.. THEN DECIDE.
go to...
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2003/11/ma_565_01.html
Musky
Posted by SLS on October 5, 2006, at 5:51:49
In reply to Re: Staying off Antidepressants ,, posted by musky on October 5, 2006, at 0:15:51
> > > >those articles you listed are research trials funded by drug companies..
How could you possibly know, they were meta-analyses of many different studies?
> And N of # (sample size ) is not that large to be convincing.
Did you even bother reading the links? Thousands of people were enrolled.
There are definitely some problems in our system with the way pharmaceutical research is funded and conducted. However, that doesn't make it all entirely worthless.
So, now, how do we make all of this apply to Withdrawal?
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 28, 2006, at 11:09:15
In reply to Re: Staying off Antidepressants, posted by SLS on October 2, 2006, at 8:43:08
> This board was started to provide a forum to offer education and support regarding the withdrawal from psychiatric medications. I don't think it was meant to be restricted to those who were determined not to return to drug treatment. It is not an "anti-drug" board.
I agree, the idea is to be open to those who are determined not to return to drug treatment, but not to be restricted to them.
Bob
Posted by notfred on December 3, 2006, at 15:44:31
In reply to Re: Staying off Antidepressants, posted by musky on October 3, 2006, at 1:55:07
> Good luck Philip... no one drug is any better that the other even drug companies admit to this..No for me. Prozac (up to 60 mgs) and for that matter
all the SSRI's did nothing for me. Tofrinil, Doxipin, Effexor, and now Wellbrutrin clearly have AD effects for me.
Posted by Philip N. on December 6, 2006, at 18:37:48
In reply to Re: Staying off Antidepressants, posted by notfred on December 3, 2006, at 15:44:31
Are you saying that those other than the SSRIs have worked for you?
This is the end of the thread.
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