![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on March 11, 2006, at 12:54:08
In reply to remeron withdrawal, posted by aleiya on March 9, 2006, at 15:59:21
Hi.
Before taking Remeron, what were your symptoms? It is quite possible that you are relapsing into depression rather than suffering a withdrawal syndrome. I think you should discuss this possibility with your doctor if your condition persists more than another week. You might benefit more from using another antidepressant. If not, then perhaps Remeron is the right drug for you afterall. The anxiety you felt at the higher dosage might have only been temporary if you had continued with it. Did you ask your doctor about this? The higher dosages tend to be less sedating.
To me, it looks like you still need treatment for your illness. Sorry...
Of course, I could be wrong. That's what doctors are for. Hopefully, you have a good specialist treating you.
- Scott
Posted by musky on March 12, 2006, at 23:45:53
In reply to remeron withdrawal, posted by aleiya on March 9, 2006, at 15:59:21
> no your not crazy... Sounds like you are weaning too fast... I suggest 10% every 2-3months.
this may sound so long but it cuts down on withdrawl symptoms... Im also told that the lower you go, it could get more symptoms NOT less as drs tell you. Its because the body is sensing it has less of the drug and it tries to "trick" you into getting more.. but never the less try other ways to cope with your anxiety... such as exercise, diet, meditation, acupuncture, massage. distraction of the mind and negative thoughts by listening to your favorite music or just a relaxaton tape,,, or just being in nature also helps... Dont fear the anxiety,,, that makes it worse.. just let it happen... I know this sounds crazy but if you feed the fear it will grow.. I had this problem too and learned if I ignore it ,, it goes away alot sooner than if i fear it and go with it... or even fight it..
Try any or all of these suggestions and keep me posted...
Hang in thereMusky..
Remeron made me MORE restless not less.. thats been my experience, and NO I dont beleive in the drug shopping stuff... I was on amytriptylene before this and that was my first experience of an antidepressant. they had said it was for relaxing my neck muscles... and I must say It DID NOT HELP ONE BIT!!! it too made me anxious...
and to go from drug to drug is silly, as no one drug is better than the other... They all affect the same thing in the brain cells. Its just one drug companies ploy over another.. If people would only do their research... An antidepressant is an antidepressant is an antidepressant... just in different packages... just like an apple will always be an apple.. so I wouldnt buy into anything that is said about trying different meds.. it reaks havoc on the body(not to mention the liver). and who wants to go on and off drugs and emotionally be a mess???? to me that is not what life is about.Musky
I have been reading the postings here and they have been comforting. Now I know I'm not crazy!
> I started on remeron in aug 2005 at 15 mg. for severe anxiety and depression. Went up to 22.5 which made me very anxious. Back down to 15 mg and just a couple of weeks ago I felt like I was ready to get off. I cut it back to 12.25 (I cut the pills in quarters) I actually started feeling pretty good, which I barely recognized since it has been so long. After 11 days I got in a hurry to get off and started taking 7.5 a week ago. The past 4 days I have had HORRIBLE anxiety and racing thoughts and last night I never shut my eyes and had bad anxiety all night.
> Did I try to wean off to fast? Can't stand the anxiety it is ruining my life and my families lives. Thanks all.
Posted by aleiya on March 27, 2006, at 16:55:11
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal, posted by musky on March 12, 2006, at 23:45:53
Thanks Musky for responding. I am still on the 12.25 mg remeron and finally broke down and asked my doc for some klonopin to get some relief. I wake up every morning with the same horrible anxiety dreading the day because I know how sick it makes me feel. It doesn't let up until the evening. I have been suffering from this anxiety since last summer when I started having panic attacks and then the depression started. Doc decided to try Remeron to see if it would help. It has not helped at all. I have lost my sense of well being and motivation. I asked my doc about getting off Remeron and he said to just stop cold turkey. Needless to say, I have decided to find a new doc cuz I know you can't do that. I will try the 10% every 2-3 months. Thanks again for your response and God bless.
aleiya
Posted by pinkeetoz on March 28, 2006, at 16:48:28
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal » musky, posted by aleiya on March 27, 2006, at 16:55:11
Aleiya, you are right to not want to quit Remeron cold turkey. It does have withdrawal symptoms. Be cautious about klonopin as well, it's highly addictive. Take care of yourself, pinkeetoz
Posted by SLS on March 29, 2006, at 8:49:08
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal, posted by musky on March 12, 2006, at 23:45:53
Hi Musky.
I must say that I disagree with your pronouncement that all antidepressants are the same.
> They all affect the same thing in the brain cells.
This is not true. For example, Remeron works in a very different manner than does Prozac. They work to regulate very different aspects of the neuronal machinery.
> and to go from drug to drug is silly,
Most people with a biological affective disorder will respond to at least one antidepressant or drug combination. Recent statistics indicate this to be true.
> as no one drug is better than the other...
This is pretty much what is seen. However, there is some indication that those antidepressants that act to influence two neurotranmitters are more effective than those that act on just one. This is still open to debate, though. It does seem that diffent people react very differently to the same drug just as does one person react differently to different drugs. We need a variety of different drugs to match the great variety of individual biologies. The differences between antidepressants might be subtle, but they are different enough to help a greater number of people.
> If people would only do their research...
I've done quite a bit, and I am led to conclude that it is indeed worth trying different therapies in an effort to treat such devastating illnesses.
It is unfortunate that scientists don't yet understand enough about the workings of the brain in health and disease to be able to design drugs specific to any one illness or any one individual. It is frustrating, I know.
- Scott
Posted by musky on March 30, 2006, at 23:35:34
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal » musky, posted by aleiya on March 27, 2006, at 16:55:11
>Hang in there aleiya:
yes its good you switched docs.. they really dont know half of the stuff we go through with a/d drugs.. you definitely have to taper..
good luck
muskyThanks Musky for responding. I am still on the 12.25 mg remeron and finally broke down and asked my doc for some klonopin to get some relief. I wake up every morning with the same horrible anxiety dreading the day because I know how sick it makes me feel. It doesn't let up until the evening. I have been suffering from this anxiety since last summer when I started having panic attacks and then the depression started. Doc decided to try Remeron to see if it would help. It has not helped at all. I have lost my sense of well being and motivation. I asked my doc about getting off Remeron and he said to just stop cold turkey. Needless to say, I have decided to find a new doc cuz I know you can't do that. I will try the 10% every 2-3 months. Thanks again for your response and God bless.
>
> aleiya
>
Posted by musky on March 31, 2006, at 0:55:36
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal, posted by SLS on March 29, 2006, at 8:49:08
> Hi Scott:
Im sorry but I disagree... If antidepressants did work,,, we wouldnt have so many people on them and so many people trying to get off with horrendous side effects and withdrawls.As for the Remeron yes I too have done my research and each drug may block at a different site(either before or after the synapse). and yes remeron is a dual action which worries me more as my experience has not been good at all with this drug as far as side effects.
It is blocking BOTH the serotonin and norepinephrine receptors in the brain.What meant to say in my earlier post was this , but meaning that the end result is still the same. The drug blocks the receptors then eventually the body responds by shutting down its receptors and then evetually these receptors are not made anymore.. A receptor on a cell is simply a protein which is now affected bythe drug.
This to me makes it very clear why we need to do more research into the neurorecptors and how they operate on a more detailed level..
I think that original studies with these drugs , which if you have done your research as you say,, show that the drug companies fund the research.there is enormous payback to market these so called wonder drugs..
What puzzles me is everyone seems to be taking them.. and if it truly is a biological disorder or whatever then we as a human race are definitely in trouble.If you look back years ago, when antidepressants didnt exist.. your suicide rates were lower..
And how come now on all the package inserts there is distinct warnings about the risk of these drugs?? Obviously some of the data from clincial trials is being released..
When you talk about biological affective disorder, I dont see how so many have this.. it seems everyone has some sort of disorder.. we tend to over diagnose what is probably normal response to our environment..
and as far as responding to one antidepressant or another, it also has been shown that in order to get a drug approved, one only has to have about a 30% improvement rate..(just a little better than placebo response).. to me this is not a true response.. Cognitivie therapy achieves a much higher response rate to depression that drug therapy and this has been documented.YOu have to remember statistics can show anything they want it the proper tests are applied(also done by the drug company).
You say that everyone is different yet they keep fiving the people the same thing over and over to fix a very complicated problem... The very fact that scientist dont know alot about the funcitoning of the brain/body in illness is the very reason they need to not be so hasty to prescribe a/d on such weak data presented to them by drug companies.. Doctors are pressured to do this and in todays quick fix society, its much easier to pop a pill than to get to the ROOT of the problem..
If these drugs help people,, then why are there so many sites such as these that are full of people like myself ,that are frustrated, hurt , and definitely not better and trying to get off the a/d???
Just the people I have encountered over the last few years have shown that the ones OFF the a/d were feeling much better.
Sorry to be so insistent... IM not a doctor and dont claim to say that my experience applies to everyone,, but i do work in a research lab and understand a little more that the average person about how cells communicate. That is what our particular reasearch lab does.
When i read these posts it really infuriates me to see so many people trapped in this cycle of anxiety, panic, depression, etc. and not getting better by taking the a/d.. or suffering with the withdrawl effects and side effects..
I dont think this is the therapy that will help us battle this disease.. it only masks the symptoms and takes away our human emotions which are supposed to be there for a reason.
I think if we all shed a little more tears and supported each other , we would heal sooner than suppressing our emotions with drugs..
Sorry scott.
just stating my side... thanks for your input
but I know what Im doing with my body and thats getting off the Remeron and feeling good inside againTheres more than one way to skin a cat they say
and this a/d world is not it..im sure you will find I am just one of many who are in the same boat.
Until one takes the drug themselves they cannot judge.
And one has to ask themselves.. if the drug they are taking is truly helping them , then WHY do they keep taking it??? and why are so many people on this site struggling on other meds and STILL NOT RIGHT?? A
Hang in everyone and try to get clean!!
MuskyHi Musky.
>
> I must say that I disagree with your pronouncement that all antidepressants are the same.
>
> > They all affect the same thing in the brain cells.
>
> This is not true. For example, Remeron works in a very different manner than does Prozac. They work to regulate very different aspects of the neuronal machinery.
>
> > and to go from drug to drug is silly,
>
> Most people with a biological affective disorder will respond to at least one antidepressant or drug combination. Recent statistics indicate this to be true.
>
> > as no one drug is better than the other...
>
> This is pretty much what is seen. However, there is some indication that those antidepressants that act to influence two neurotranmitters are more effective than those that act on just one. This is still open to debate, though. It does seem that diffent people react very differently to the same drug just as does one person react differently to different drugs. We need a variety of different drugs to match the great variety of individual biologies. The differences between antidepressants might be subtle, but they are different enough to help a greater number of people.
>
> > If people would only do their research...
>
> I've done quite a bit, and I am led to conclude that it is indeed worth trying different therapies in an effort to treat such devastating illnesses.
>
> It is unfortunate that scientists don't yet understand enough about the workings of the brain in health and disease to be able to design drugs specific to any one illness or any one individual. It is frustrating, I know.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by jules354 on March 31, 2006, at 7:13:43
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal, posted by musky on March 31, 2006, at 0:55:36
i just had to weigh in here. i understand what both of you are saying, musky and Scott.
Remeron saved my life. I love Remeron. I wrote poems about Remeron.
I want to be off Remeron now because I want to have a baby and because I'm scared about the long-term effects of being on such a powerful drug. If the suicidality comes back, I'll go back on it. That's the deal I made. But I'm working hard to be off it, and it also scares me how hard it is to go off it.
It's clear we need better solutions to mental illness (including free therapy and meds and bodywork). And I think we all need to be critical and aggressive about getting better info about side effects, addiction and withdrawal. It's been stunning to me to learn how many of us share the same w/d symptoms yet how many of our doctors are blithe about this.
But then again, this is a health-care industry that prescribes meds that give people heart attacks and waits until people die to pull them off the market.
take good care,
jules
Posted by SLS on March 31, 2006, at 9:05:56
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal, posted by musky on March 31, 2006, at 0:55:36
Hi Musky.
> Im sorry but I disagree... If antidepressants did work,,, we wouldnt have so many people on them
I fail to see the logic here. That's like saying if sex felt so good, we wouldn't have so many people doing it.
> and so many people trying to get off with horrendous side effects and withdrawls.
Again, I fail to see how the desire to discontinue an antidepressant is a de facto demonstration of its lack of effectiveness. There are many reasons why people discontinue antidepressants. Many attempt to discontinue precisely because they did work, and that they maintained a remission for an extended period of time. Of course, many must discontinue one failed antidepressant to move on to another. The fact is that the great majority of people do not intend to remain on an antidepressant for the rest of their lives for a variety of reasons.
> As for the Remeron yes I too have done my research and each drug may block at a different site(either before or after the synapse).
This is a far different pronouncement than the one you issued in your previous post.
> and yes remeron is a dual action which worries me more as my experience has not been good at all with this drug as far as side effects.
I think it is a mistake to generalize unto an entire population one's own experience with these drugs.
Most antidepressants suck with regard to side effects, I agree. Too bad, but it's the best we've got at the moment.
> What meant to say in my earlier post was this , but meaning that the end result is still the same.I wish this were true. I wish the end result was that everyone always responded to a single antidepressant. Unfortunately, things don't work that way. This is at least indicative that each drug results in producing a different biological state that varies from individual to individual and drug to drug.
Scientists really don't know how these drugs work and are not fully convinced that they have elucidated every property of each drug.
> The drug blocks the receptors then eventually the body responds by shutting down its receptors and then evetually these receptors are not made anymore..
Is that all the body does? I think there are cascades of events beyond the immediate receptor that are important to the therapeutic effects of these drugs.
One must consider not only what these drugs do, but where they do it. Not all drugs exert their properties in the same regions of the brain.
> A receptor on a cell is simply a protein which is now affected bythe drug.
That is rather simple, I agree. However, since different drugs affect different receptors, they are obviously not all the same. They do not all result in the same changes in membrane sensitivity.
> This to me makes it very clear why we need to do more research into the neurorecptors and how they operate on a more detailed level..
Research needs to extend well beyond the level of the synaptic neurotransmitter receptor. Much of it already does.
> I think that original studies with these drugs , which if you have done your research as you say,, show that the drug companies fund the research.
Not 100%, I assure you.
> there is enormous payback to market these so called wonder drugs..
That's capitalism.
> What puzzles me is everyone seems to be taking them.. and if it truly is a biological disorder or whatever then we as a human race are definitely in trouble.
Bingo. We certainly are in trouble. At a rate of approximately 10%, depression alone accounts for a huge loss in the productivity of an economy and a burden on the public support system, whether it be capitalism or socialism. We do indeed need more and better treatments.
> If you look back years ago, when antidepressants didnt exist.. your suicide rates were lower..
Reporting practices. Differences in psychosocial stress. Old news. New world.
> And how come now on all the package inserts there is distinct warnings about the risk of these drugs??
Because there are risks. Also because each treatment-emergent event must be reported, whether there is a cause-and-effect relationship or an unrelated coincidence.
Why should we expect psychotropic drugs to be free of risks, anyway. How many non-psychotropic drugs are free of risks? That's a double standard. We have what we have.
> Obviously some of the data from clincial trials is being released..
Hey! The system almost works! I guess not all scientists are liars.
> When you talk about biological affective disorder, I dont see how so many have this..
Scientists continue to elucidate the genetic and epigenetic contributions to affective disorders in order to understand why this fact of epidemiology exists.
> it seems everyone has some sort of disorder.. we tend to over diagnose what is probably normal response to our environment..
Perhaps. I don't know what the rate of misdiagnosis is. Where does this leave those who really do suffer from a brain disorder? What difference does it make to them what the rate is? Should we deny them access to medications that will help them? I don't get it?
> and as far as responding to one antidepressant or another, it also has been shown that in order to get a drug approved, one only has to have about a 30% improvement rate..(just a little better than placebo response)..
There is so much to take into consideration when interpreting the statistics of effectiveness. The rate is significantly higher than 30%, by the way. 30% seems to be the placebo response rate. Still, the rate of effectiveness of any one antidepressant is disappointingly low. I guess that means we should discontinue the sale of all of them? No. What it means is that we should encourage the production of more and better drugs.
> Cognitivie therapy achieves a much higher response rate to depression that drug therapy and this has been documented.
That's quite a remarkable statement to make. It is in opposition to everything I have yet encountered.
Listen, I can see that we are not going to reach a consensus here. You have written quite a long post - too long for my impoverished brain to attend to. I'll leave the rest for others to research independently. Like you, I encourage others to do their own research whenever possible. It is unfortunate that depression can so debilitate one such that they can barely read, learn, and remember. Sometimes they have no better choice than to listen to their doctors and visit message boards like this one.
I strongly encourage others to not look at Psycho-Babble as a definitive source of information. First of all, the majority of us are not professionals in the study of mental illness and its treatment. Secondly, the population here seems to be skewed towards people whom have had difficulties with the treatment of their mental illness. It is not representative of the general population. Sorry, but I can't provide statistics at this point in time.
The bottom line is that mental illnesses do exist. Many of them have a biological component. Drugs effectively treat a large number of sufferers, regardless of etiology. The drugs used do not have a 100% success rate and can produce side effects. Many of these drugs produce a syndrome of withdrawal symptoms upon discontinuation. Scientists do not yet understand enough to design more effective drugs. Drug companies do sponsor some, but not all, of the research into the drugs they produce. Not all scientists are liars.
- Scott
Posted by musky on April 13, 2006, at 3:06:24
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal » musky, posted by SLS on March 31, 2006, at 9:05:56
>Hello Scott:
Hmmm we obviously are at different ends of the spectrum here on our views about treatment for dperesssion, etc.
But if you see what is going on in the general population , more and more people are freaking out that are on meds than not..this is very concerning to me.
Im not saying dont let there be any choice. but Im saying that the patient should be allowed to have more of a say in whether they want to try the drug.. NOT the doctor telling them to take a drug and then going from med to med.. I cant see how doing this is helping the patient emotionally
yes you may find one that works, but at what cost to the patient??? They usually have to go through hell first and many weeks of symptoms, withdrawls, etc. before finally being numbed out on whatever the final drug is.
Patients should be allowed to have a more active role in their treatment plan . After all they know their body better than anyone,, they live in it 24/7.
Drugs are not the only way to treat MDD, etc. there are other just as effective and safer ways. Just because something is called alternative , doesnt mean it doesnt work... and just because there isnt published data out there doesnt mean it doesnt work,
Pharmaceuticals is a multi billion dollar industry and they have the money to fund these research trials.
> > >
> I fail to see the logic here. That's like saying if sex felt so good, we wouldn't have so many people doing it.
>> The logic is that if the drug worked ,, then it would be a one time thing and then you would be off ...much like a round of antibiotics.. the fact that people are still depressed on it shows that it didnt work. and when they do try to get off they suffer w/d.. how can that be so helpful??
>
> > and so many people trying to get off with horrendous side effects and withdrawls.
>
> Again, I fail to see how the desire to discontinue an antidepressant is a de facto demonstration of its lack of effectiveness. There are many reasons why people discontinue antidepressants. Many attempt to discontinue precisely because they did work, and that they maintained a remission for an extended period of time. Of course, many must discontinue one failed antidepressant to move on to another. The fact is that the great majority of people do not intend to remain on an antidepressant for the rest of their lives for a variety of reasons.
yes this is true,, however the fact that they felt better after taking the a/d then stopped could very well have been that they would have recovered anyways on their own..
>
> > As for the Remeron yes I too have done my research and each drug may block at a different site(either before or after the synapse).
>
> This is a far different pronouncement than the one you issued in your previous post.No not different at all.. whether the drug blocks before or after a synapse,, the final result is the same,, the receptor in the end is shut down because their is overload by the drug in the system, that is what i mean by it all affects the same thing.. the receptor
>
> > and yes remeron is a dual action which worries me more as my experience has not been good at all with this drug as far as side effects.
>
> I think it is a mistake to generalize unto an entire population one's own experience with these drugs.No , not generallizing a whole population, but reading so many articles out there, it seems to me that this is the majority of cases , not minority. I have yet to meet someone that is feeling just great on this.
> Most antidepressants suck with regard to side effects, I agree. Too bad, but it's the best we've got at the moment.
that doesnt justify to keep giving it out so commonly.. i think it needs to be used very conservatively , if at all.
>
> > What meant to say in my earlier post was this , but meaning that the end result is still the same.
>
> I wish this were true. I wish the end result was that everyone always responded to a single antidepressant. Unfortunately, things don't work that way. This is at least indicative that each drug results in producing a different biological state that varies from individual to individual and drug to drug.Exactly my point.. which is why they need to stop practicing the one size fits all drug theory. The physician's desk manual only lists what they think is the effective dose,, this may indeed be alot lower that what is in the manual.. and they are generalizing their findings on a very small number of patients.. they neglect to take into account that specific persons age, gender, wt, metabolism.
>
> Scientists really don't know how these drugs work and are not fully convinced that they have elucidated every property of each drug.Again, my point of what worries me... Until they know for sure, they must not prescribe so readily.. we are really being the guinea pigs here.
>
> > The drug blocks the receptors then eventually the body responds by shutting down its receptors and then evetually these receptors are not made anymore..
>
> Is that all the body does? I think there are cascades of events beyond the immediate receptor that are important to the therapeutic effects of these drugs.of course not,, the receptor though is a huge part in cell signalling.. there are many cascades of events that happen seperate of the receptor ,like you state, but the receptor plays a big role, .. knock out the receptor and you have serious trouble.. You may be effecting things downstream but you are messing up other signalling events as well, this is what is not good.
>
> One must consider not only what these drugs do, but where they do it. Not all drugs exert their properties in the same regions of the brain.
Exactly.. they also affect other systems in a negative way, such as the fat metabolism in the liver for example with Remeron.. how can this possibly be a good thing??? And it is very common having weight gain on remeron. Also it affects blood cell production.. not good either.. and do they even have data showing where else this drug goes then if it affects other regions in the brain??
>
> > A receptor on a cell is simply a protein which is now affected bythe drug.
>
> That is rather simple, I agree. However, since different drugs affect different receptors, they are obviously not all the same. They do not all result in the same changes in membrane sensitivity.All these drugs are in one family or another.Each family still affects the serontonin or norepinephrine in the brain. SSRI, SNRI, for example.
>
> > This to me makes it very clear why we need to do more research into the neurorecptors and how they operate on a more detailed level..
>
> Research needs to extend well beyond the level of the synaptic neurotransmitter receptor. Much of it already does.Yet they still give out the drug, not knowing and not following patients long term.
>
> > I think that original studies with these drugs , which if you have done your research as you say,, show that the drug companies fund the research.
>
> Not 100%, I assure you.pretty close to it I would say... Next time you look at a clinical trial ,, find out who the funders were.. yu will be surprised..
>
> > there is enormous payback to market these so called wonder drugs..
>
> That's capitalism.Call it what you wish... its still true.
>
> > What puzzles me is everyone seems to be taking them.. and if it truly is a biological disorder or whatever then we as a human race are definitely in trouble.
>
> Bingo. We certainly are in trouble. At a rate of approximately 10%, depression alone accounts for a huge loss in the productivity of an economy and a burden on the public support system, whether it be capitalism or socialism. We do indeed need more and better treatments.This I agree with you... but we keep going around in circles.. instead of making progress. Which leads me to believe we are looking at this the wrong way. we are looking at treating the problem AFTER it happens not looking at ways to PREVENT it in the first place.
>
> > If you look back years ago, when antidepressants didnt exist.. your suicide rates were lower..
>
> Reporting practices. Differences in psychosocial stress. Old news. New world.
Ya, but it worked...
>
> > And how come now on all the package inserts there is distinct warnings about the risk of these drugs??
>
> Because there are risks. Also because each treatment-emergent event must be reported, whether there is a cause-and-effect relationship or an unrelated coincidence.
yes I understand there are risks.. but why take them if you dont have to???
>
> Why should we expect psychotropic drugs to be free of risks, anyway. How many non-psychotropic drugs are free of risks? That's a double standard. We have what we have.That doesnt mean we have to use it so freely and still have the problem at hand.. have we wiped out depression?? no,.. even after ALL these drugs.. one can develop all the drugs they want.. we still have the problem.. and we will continue to have it until we change our tactics..
>
> > Obviously some of the data from clincial trials is being released..
>
> Hey! The system almost works! I guess not all scientists are liars.Ya only the rich ones are liars..ha,ha
>
> > When you talk about biological affective disorder, I dont see how so many have this..
>
> Scientists continue to elucidate the genetic and epigenetic contributions to affective disorders in order to understand why this fact of epidemiology exists.I think we are over analyzing this affective disorder thing..
>
> > it seems everyone has some sort of disorder.. we tend to over diagnose what is probably normal response to our environment..
>
> Perhaps. I don't know what the rate of misdiagnosis is. Where does this leave those who really do suffer from a brain disorder? What difference does it make to them what the rate is? Should we deny them access to medications that will help them? I don't get it?Of course not.. im simply stating that these people who truly say have an organic disease shall we say should have the choice to take or not take, but should be given more choice than just meds... about other treatment options..so that they are not locked into one method of treatment .. especially if side effects are worse than the disorder itself.
>
> > and as far as responding to one antidepressant or another, it also has been shown that in order to get a drug approved, one only has to have about a 30% improvement rate..(just a little better than placebo response)..
>
> There is so much to take into consideration when interpreting the statistics of effectiveness. The rate is significantly higher than 30%, by the way. 30% seems to be the placebo response rate. Still, the rate of effectiveness of any one antidepressant is disappointingly low. I guess that means we should discontinue the sale of all of them? No. What it means is that we should encourage the production of more and better drugs.For what reason??? again as I stated earlier we keep looking at the same way to try to get to an endpoint. For example if you saw that a bridge was out to cross a river, would you keep trying over and over and over to use the broken bridge ,or would you stop and try ANOTHER route?
the very fact that we have been spilling out these drugs for years and have not come any closer to effectively treating depression, anxiety etc. proves only one thing... need to find another way...
>
> > Cognitivie therapy achieves a much higher response rate to depression that drug therapy and this has been documented.
>
> That's quite a remarkable statement to make. It is in opposition to everything I have yet encountered.could you give an example ?? I myself have been succesful with cognitive therapy.. I suggest you reasearch some of Dr. David Burns books on this issue... Very well respected pshchiatrist.. not a drug pusher. Just for one example
>
> Listen, I can see that we are not going to reach a consensus here. You have written quite a long post - too long for my impoverished brain to attend to. I'll leave the rest for others to research independently. Like you, I encourage others to do their own research whenever possible. It is unfortunate that depression can so debilitate one such that they can barely read, learn, and remember. Sometimes they have no better choice than to listen to their doctors and visit message boards like this one.Yes this is true, and these very same people who are in such a state are the ones at most risk of just being drugged and numbed and tossed aside and just treated like a puppet. I just hope that they will find a way that helps them and all we can do is support, guide,,
>
> I strongly encourage others to not look at Psycho-Babble as a definitive source of information. First of all, the majority of us are not professionals in the study of mental illness and its treatment. Secondly, the population here seems to be skewed towards people whom have had difficulties with the treatment of their mental illness. It is not representative of the general population. Sorry, but I can't provide statistics at this point in time.
>
Well I must totally disagree. The very reason that this message board is so full of posts just like mine is showing that people are finally speaking out on these drugs... and its not only the message board , people are writing , books , on TV, etc. with very similar experiences as we have here... Until those doctors take the drug themselves they cannot claim what is best for the patient.. They may be the experts in their field, but they are not in that persons body,nor are they experiencing that persons symptoms..> The bottom line is that mental illnesses do exist. Many of them have a biological component. Drugs effectively treat a large number of sufferers, regardless of etiology. The drugs used do not have a 100% success rate and can produce side effects. Many of these drugs produce a syndrome of withdrawal symptoms upon discontinuation. Scientists do not yet understand enough to design more effective drugs. Drug companies do sponsor some, but not all, of the research into the drugs they produce. Not all scientists are liars.
>Yes Of course we have mental illness, but drugs are not the only approach here. the very fact that scientists do not yet understand enough is reason enough to test more in the lab in vitro, before so hastily pushing clinical trials through to test on people... Again we are simply treating the symptoms , NOT the cause... and we are wasting far too much time develping yet more and more drugs instead of spending more time on preventative measures.
I think alot of our mental illnesses can be prevented Before they happen not after.. and that doesnt include developing newer drugs.. how many times have we said that before??
No scientist will only skew results to get their paper published first.. statistics can be presented such that it looks good on paper..
No maybe not all scientist are liars.. just the drug companies.. its business... thats the reality of it..
I encourage everyone out there to hang in there and stay in touch with pscho babble ... you have to make your own decisions what works for you.Your body will tell you what is healthy for it or not.. think twice before taking any med. prescription or not,, educate yourself and trust your gut instinct... We were given this gift for a reason...
Good luck scott,
thanks for the Debate!!!!
Musky
>
> - Scott
Posted by GuitarManSG on April 19, 2006, at 17:15:36
In reply to remeron withdrawal, posted by aleiya on March 9, 2006, at 15:59:21
Ive been on remeron for going on 4 years 30 mg a day at 10 pm, Ive had this horrible "ringing" in my ears for the passed 3 years , the ringing goes 24hrs a day 7 days a week, Ive gained about 40 lbs, after about 3 years the remeron"Quit Working" meaning the Panic Attacks returned, Pdoc upped my dose to 30 mg a day, and gave me
1 mg klonopin , I ran out of the remeron 2 days ago, called in my prescription, and had a friend go pick it up for me, lo and behold he didnt show up at 10 pm with it, so I missed a dose
I woke up this morning without the usual "groginess" and the ringing in my ears was gone!!!!!! I called My Pdoc and told him this and he said "Why dont you just stop taking the remeron then" and just come in for your regular appt on the 26th, he also said "You shouldnt expect to have any withdrawl symptoms, from remeron , just some insomnia" After reading the posts here , I must say Im scared out of my wits
beings that he told me to go off the meds after
years of use, (which means that Ill probably never get another prescription out of him for the remeron) which means I wont be able to slowly "Taper" grant you I have the klonopin
to take the edge off but still Im very very scared.......any help would be appreciated
Thanks in Advance,GuitarManSG
Posted by GuitarManSG on April 19, 2006, at 17:32:12
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal, posted by GuitarManSG on April 19, 2006, at 17:15:36
I forgot to mention that I was originally diagnosed with PTSD and Panic Disorder with Agorophobia,that was 4 years ago, I find that I cannot hold a job at least for any length of time
I compose music and Ive found that over the passed 4 months I hardly pick up a guitar , I sold a Brand New Alesis Synth, and sold another guitar I owned...and Music used to be my life!!!!
There are certainly some things going on here...
Posted by musky on April 19, 2006, at 22:41:10
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal, posted by GuitarManSG on April 19, 2006, at 17:15:36
Guitar Man;
I would suggest getting your Remeron Rx. refilled if not by your pdoc,, by just any doctor
Theres nothing written you have to go to your doctor.. ANY Dr. can write a RX... NOt that im for going back on remeron.. but the smarter way would be to taper VERY Slowly.... not cold turkey
I hate that when docs say to just quit... they DONT know... they just dont have time to follow up pts who want to taper, etc.. ITS like coming off heroin or any other street drugs ,, they dont make those people quit cold turkey... and a/d are just as potent.. It even says in the publications ive read that not to quit Remeron suddenly as it can lead to seizures.. I dont want to scare you but these are the facts out there.. EVEN my pharmacist told me the same info...
Im very surprised your doc..didnt know this common sense info!!Sorry, but try this way instead
and only taper 10% every 2months or so... this is how ive done my taper and so far so good...IM down to 2mg from original 45mg... i had terrible wt gain too... ridiculousGood Luck
MuskyIve been on remeron for going on 4 years 30 mg a day at 10 pm, Ive had this horrible "ringing" in my ears for the passed 3 years , the ringing goes 24hrs a day 7 days a week, Ive gained about 40 lbs, after about 3 years the remeron"Quit Working" meaning the Panic Attacks returned, Pdoc upped my dose to 30 mg a day, and gave me
> 1 mg klonopin , I ran out of the remeron 2 days ago, called in my prescription, and had a friend go pick it up for me, lo and behold he didnt show up at 10 pm with it, so I missed a dose
> I woke up this morning without the usual "groginess" and the ringing in my ears was gone!!!!!! I called My Pdoc and told him this and he said "Why dont you just stop taking the remeron then" and just come in for your regular appt on the 26th, he also said "You shouldnt expect to have any withdrawl symptoms, from remeron , just some insomnia" After reading the posts here , I must say Im scared out of my wits
> beings that he told me to go off the meds after
> years of use, (which means that Ill probably never get another prescription out of him for the remeron) which means I wont be able to slowly "Taper" grant you I have the klonopin
> to take the edge off but still Im very very scared.......any help would be appreciated
> Thanks in Advance,
>
> GuitarManSG
Posted by musky on April 19, 2006, at 22:50:22
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal, posted by GuitarManSG on April 19, 2006, at 17:32:12
> ya, ya , i was told i had panic disorder too... anxiety maybe,, but a disorder,,ya right.. never had problems before with managing anxiety,, until all these pills originally prescribed to me for muscle tension /dizzyness.
anyways.. yes I think there is something going on.
I too love music and sing.. its my passion.
As I have tapered Off the remeron some of my emotions have been coming back.
Otherwise it just "holds one back" somehow..
Sounds to me that the Remeron has done this to you too... just numbing people out..
Believe me.. there are other ways to manage panic.. from cognitive therapy(changing the way yu think), to acupuncture , mediation, good diet, etc, etc.. As I have said in other posts.. I cant stress acupuncture enough for treating panic successfully,, it has helped me tremendouslyI no longer take any thing for anxiety.. Its been 2yrs since I had any ativan... and I feel so much better that way.. I get my times but I can manage on my own now without drugs!!!I havent had any real major panic attacks for months now, and have been working again for 2yrs after not wanting to leave my house either...
Musky
Good luck
Hang in
MuskyI forgot to mention that I was originally diagnosed with PTSD and Panic Disorder with Agorophobia,that was 4 years ago, I find that I cannot hold a job at least for any length of time
> I compose music and Ive found that over the passed 4 months I hardly pick up a guitar , I sold a Brand New Alesis Synth, and sold another guitar I owned...and Music used to be my life!!!!
> There are certainly some things going on here...
Posted by SLS on April 20, 2006, at 7:40:48
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal, posted by musky on April 19, 2006, at 22:41:10
> Sorry, but try this way instead
and only taper 10% every 2months or so...I should think that one can taper much faster than that. I don't understand why one couldn't reduce the dosage every 2 weeks. That's about how long it takes for receptors to reregulate themselves.
I am not immune to withdrawal syndromes. However, I have been able discontinue Effexor 300mg within two weeks using a flexible-dosing strategy. I have also used this method to discontinue benzodiazepines. I haven't had to discontinue Remeron, so I can't speak with certainty regarding its withdrawal syndrome, but I can't imagine that it would be that much different. It wouldn't really hurt to at least try tapering it more quickly.
- Scott
Posted by Marian29 on April 21, 2006, at 16:47:59
In reply to remeron withdrawal, posted by aleiya on March 9, 2006, at 15:59:21
Hi, I've been on 30 mg Remeron daily for anxiety and depression since November, also take Cymbalta. It's time to try to get off the Remeron because of an intolerable weight gain, despite careful eating and lots of exercise. For those of you who gained weight and then quit Remeron, did you then lose the weight you'd gained? How long did it take?
Posted by jules354 on April 22, 2006, at 7:06:32
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal, posted by Marian29 on April 21, 2006, at 16:47:59
i lost the weight pretty easily as i tapered off remeron (but my tapering off period was really long, like 2 1/2 years). i'm sure how much you lose and how quickly depends a lot on your diet and exercise routines, but my appetite stabilized almost as soon as i started tapering off and that made it a lot easier to eat right, and i also had more energy in the morning, which made it easier to exercise regularly.
take care,
jules
Posted by Marian29 on April 22, 2006, at 14:50:57
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal, posted by jules354 on April 22, 2006, at 7:06:32
Thanks for your reply. I'm going to try a pretty quick taper, as I've only been on the med for four months. I'm at half dose right now and the anxiety is bearable, but I do feel as if I have the flu.
We'll see how it goes.
Posted by SandyWeb on April 22, 2006, at 18:15:24
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal, posted by Marian29 on April 21, 2006, at 16:47:59
Hi Marian,
Just wanted you to know that I quit 45mg (took it for 2 years) 10 days ago. I have to admit that I was using Topamax for about a month and a half before quitting Remeron, and that med caused me to lose a lot of weight very quickly. I had gained over 50 pounds on the Remeron in those 2 years. I had to keep buying new wardrobes!!!!
After quitting the Remeron cold-turkey 10 days ago (at the same time as the Topamax), I still have not gotten my appetite back. I figure my body has enough fat on it still to munch away on that! Lol. I don't have scales, so I haven't a clue how much I weigh.....but I actually fit into my old pants 7/8 (although 9/10 is a bit more comfy at the moment), whereas just recently I was wearing pants in size 14 and almost ready to go to size 16. Yup.....a lot of weight.
So I think, even without the Topamax, the weight would have come off quickly simply because I don't have an appetite. I even forget to eat! I drink coffee, diet Pepsi, and sometimes I'll have a bowl of hot cereal or a roll. I don't feel weak from lack of food....I think there is still enough flab on me that the fat is what is being "eaten". At some point, I fully expect to get a NORMAL appetite back.....not that "Remeron Hunger".
So from my experience, the Topamax may have started the decrease in appetite.....but being off both it and Remeron now for 10 days, I still have that lack of appetite. WooHoo! Just in time for summer! Lol.
I wish you the best.
Sandy
Posted by Marian29 on April 22, 2006, at 19:18:05
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal » Marian29, posted by SandyWeb on April 22, 2006, at 18:15:24
Thanks for your message, Sandy. And congrats on getting the weight off! I can't wait to get off this med now!
Posted by musky on April 24, 2006, at 0:54:58
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal, posted by Marian29 on April 21, 2006, at 16:47:59
>Hi Marian
For me the wt gain was ridiculous too. I gained over 40lbs ...never a wt problem before . Funny how common this side effect is, yet the docs dont tell you this when the rx it to you.. it seems..
figures..
anyways so far since tapering I have lost 20 of these pounds... i just hope i can loose the rest after i am completely off. I think i should since i never was over wt before ... always around 107lbs..
Good luck
muskyHi, I've been on 30 mg Remeron daily for anxiety and depression since November, also take Cymbalta. It's time to try to get off the Remeron because of an intolerable weight gain, despite careful eating and lots of exercise. For those of you who gained weight and then quit Remeron, did you then lose the weight you'd gained? How long did it take?
Posted by Jimbobwe64 on July 24, 2006, at 2:18:34
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal, posted by SLS on March 29, 2006, at 8:49:08
Hello. For a lot of you out there in the same boat as I am. I have several things to say about anti-depressants as I've learned over the past ten years. First of all, anti-depressants work differently for each person concerned. I know some friends that take Wellbutrin and it works fine for them, but for others it's quite useless. I was on Paxil for years and it actually worked. The problem was that as time continued on, the Paxil worked less and less, and the dosage needed to be raised, which happens in a lot of cases, with other types of anti-depressants, too. As far as I'm concerned, though, I personally think in a lot of people such as myself, that all anti-depressants do is mask other problems, such as vitamin deficiencies, and other problems. If the doctor who prescribed these medications, actually took the time to talk to the patient and help him/her to change his diet, then there would be one hell of a lot less people on anti-depressants and a lot more in much, much better health, nutrition-wise as well. Until I learned to change my diet, it was almost impossible for me to get off my anti-depressants, which until this point, I had been using for 11 years. Over the last year I had been taking Remeron in combination with effexor, and at the same time, learning what I could do dietary wise to lessen the anti-depressants, which at this point weren't working again, imagine that. With my changes in diet, and addition of healthy vitamins and nutrients, I've actually gotten to the point where a week ago, I had weaned off both medications, totally I(I had weaned off effexor about six months ago) and took about 2 months to go from full dosage of Remeron down to nothing which I've been doing for a week and a half. Until I got down to nothing, I couldn't believe this, but, I had no symptoms whatsoever, giving me the lowest amount of medications that I've had in 11 years. I never, ever thought that I would get this far, wow, how impressive. Now, since I've been down to no dosage, that's a different story, though. I am actually now having panic attacks and a bit of depression, etc, however, I firmly believe these symptoms are as a result of withdrawal from the Remeron. So, I just have to stick it out and tell myself that these symptoms will pass with time, and to not go back on the meds unless I know these symptoms are much more severe and persistent. So, if anyone would like to know what I've done, dietary wise, I'd be more than happy to chat with you. Keep one thing in mind, though, and that is that I'm definitely not a doctor, and also that different things work for different people. Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to read this, and I look forward to passing my knowledge to you.
PS, I'll also let you know how things are working for me a couple months down the road, too.
Cheers.
Jim
Posted by SLS on July 24, 2006, at 5:53:31
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal, posted by Jimbobwe64 on July 24, 2006, at 2:18:34
Hi Jim.
Thanks for the opportunity to correspond with you.
What do you feel are the most important components to your nutritional plan?
- Scott
Posted by jules354 on July 24, 2006, at 14:10:34
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal, posted by Jimbobwe64 on July 24, 2006, at 2:18:34
Following up on Scott's question, can you say what kind of professionals helped you work out a nutritional plan? I've been to see Chinese herbalist/nutritionists and energy healers who have all been very helpful with suggesting diet changes that helped me physically and emotionally, but I'm curious to hear who helped you.
take care,
jules
Posted by jimbobwe64 on July 25, 2006, at 17:16:40
In reply to Re: remeron withdrawal » Jimbobwe64, posted by jules354 on July 24, 2006, at 14:10:34
Hi, Jules and Scott. I recieved my advice from several sources. I spoke to a naturopath and was referred to 5-HTP. This actually worked for quite a while, but, it eventually interfered with the medications that I was taking at the time, including remeron. Now that I've gotten away from the Remeron, I've slowly been improving. In addition, since the Remeron is gone, I continued taking 5-HTP, and found that not only has it stopped interfering with my illness, but, it's actually helping to improve things. I know that you can find 5-HTP in most health stores, but, again, it's very important that you speak to an expert prior to going on something like that. Also, a doctor (believe it or not) recommended to me a product called "spirulina" which comes in a powder or capsule form, that gives you between 5 - 8 servings of vegetables and fruits a day. In addition to that, I try to eat as healthy as possible, which means avoiding refined sugars, packaged products (MSG) and a number of other things. The big one for me was getting rid of Caffeine, which increased my panic attacks and depression immensely. So, it was pretty much a combination of things that over the years has improved my health. If you'd like me to expand on anything that I've discussed here, I'd be more than happy to. Hopefully anything I've said helps you out.
Jim
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Withdrawal | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.