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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 27. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Kimbersaur on August 12, 2005, at 18:17:08
What do you mean by "brain zaps" and "brain shivers?" Can someone please describe these withdrawal symptoms?
Posted by AmandaEffexorScks on August 13, 2005, at 2:15:54
In reply to What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by Kimbersaur on August 12, 2005, at 18:17:08
Hi Kim,
What a brain zap to me is I'll be sitting/standing, minding my own business, and then it feels like your head is turning, even though it's not. The sensation lasts for a few seconds. It's like your equilibrium checked out for a moment, forgot what it's supposed to do. I turn my head and I get the same feeling; you get the sensation that your head is still turning when it's not. A very un-lovely feeling. People treat it with motion sickness pills and I hear it helps. Nausea is often associated with this feeling.
Personally I was familiar with these sensations before I ever thought about withdrawal. I would get them if I missed a dose of Effexor. I once asked my P Dr. about it and he said that sounded strange and he never heard anything like that. I think that was right before he left on vacation to the Carribean with the Effexor Rep.
It's a hard thing to describe but I hope this helps. If you want to experience brain zaps, and this goes for anybody, just start taking Effexor for a few months then stop. I shouldn't joke about it but I'm not a big fan of this drug, or atleast the drug company's lack of responsibility to its end-users (end-users being us, the suckers who take it and have no idea what's in store for us when we quit taking it).
Amanda
Posted by ed_uk on August 13, 2005, at 9:43:08
In reply to What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by Kimbersaur on August 12, 2005, at 18:17:08
I've never had a brain zap/shiver either - even when I quit Effexor cold turkey.
Most people who quit Effexor abruptly seem to suffer brain zaps. I guess I'm lucky.
~Ed
Posted by DizzyNikki2 on August 13, 2005, at 16:46:42
In reply to What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by Kimbersaur on August 12, 2005, at 18:17:08
Brain zaps are horrible. Exactly like Amanda described. I thought I was getting shocked at first. I read online somewhere that Canada was considering taking Effexor of the market because of the withdrawals. They called the brain zaps we refer to, electric shock sensory disturbances of the brain. Our poor brains! I hope to hell there are no long term affects. Ed you are oh so lucky for not having these things. With all the ones I am getting lately no wonder I am dizzy Nikki.
DizzyNikki
Posted by Kimbersaur on August 13, 2005, at 20:19:16
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by DizzyNikki2 on August 13, 2005, at 16:46:42
I guess I am really lucky too. I am down to 37.5 and I haven't had any brain zaps. Actually, I haven't had a very hard time at all.
Posted by SLS on August 14, 2005, at 9:16:35
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by Kimbersaur on August 13, 2005, at 20:19:16
Hi.
> I guess I am really lucky too. I am down to 37.5 and I haven't had any brain zaps. Actually, I haven't had a very hard time at all.
That's good news.
How much Effexor were you taking?
Often, the last 25% of the original dosage is the most difficult to reduce.
If for some reason you do begin to develop withdrawal symptoms, it might be a good idea to post your condition before committing to a complete discontinuation "cold turkey". It has been my observation that once a withdrawal syndrome is induced and kindled, it can get worse over time and not better. It is much easier to just continue tapering using a flexible-dosing strategy or perhaps bringing in another agent to crossover to or ease symptoms.
- Scott
Posted by Kimbersaur on August 14, 2005, at 14:05:40
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by SLS on August 14, 2005, at 9:16:35
> Hi.
>
> > I guess I am really lucky too. I am down to 37.5 and I haven't had any brain zaps. Actually, I haven't had a very hard time at all.
>
> That's good news.
>
> How much Effexor were you taking?
>
> Often, the last 25% of the original dosage is the most difficult to reduce.
>
> If for some reason you do begin to develop withdrawal symptoms, it might be a good idea to post your condition before committing to a complete discontinuation "cold turkey". It has been my observation that once a withdrawal syndrome is induced and kindled, it can get worse over time and not better. It is much easier to just continue tapering using a flexible-dosing strategy or perhaps bringing in another agent to crossover to or ease symptoms.
>
>
> - ScottI was on 150 before, and I didn't have any withdrawal problems until I got down to 37.5. Now I am getting headaches, hotflashes, and also short-term memory loss I think. But those have been easy enough to deal with. However, like you said, it is not getting better at all with time. I am not sure what I should do next. I was on 112.5 for a couple months, then 75 for maybe three weeks, and it has been about 2 weeks on 37.5. But I dont think "giving it time" to wear off before i take the next step is working. Besides, I kind of want to get it overwith soon, you know? Any suggestions?
Posted by AmandaEffexorScks on August 14, 2005, at 21:13:38
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by Kimbersaur on August 14, 2005, at 14:05:40
Hi Kim,
Before you quit cold turkey, get your vitamins, supplements, etc. in order, and give yourself time when you can pamper, sleep, cry, etc. If the nastiness doesn't hit then great, but if it does you'll be prepared.
Reading everybody else's experience really helps. I wrote about it daily starting at day 4 if you want to get the details on my symptoms and how I approached heading them off.
Good luck.
Amanda
Posted by Kimbersaur on August 15, 2005, at 1:41:01
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by AmandaEffexorScks on August 14, 2005, at 21:13:38
>
> Hi Kim,
> Before you quit cold turkey, get your vitamins, supplements, etc. in order, and give yourself time when you can pamper, sleep, cry, etc. If the nastiness doesn't hit then great, but if it does you'll be prepared.
> Reading everybody else's experience really helps. I wrote about it daily starting at day 4 if you want to get the details on my symptoms and how I approached heading them off.
> Good luck.
> AmandaThanks, I have already been reading your thread and I think it is very helpful.
Posted by SLS on August 15, 2005, at 10:44:57
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by Kimbersaur on August 14, 2005, at 14:05:40
Hi.
I had a great deal of success tapering from 300mg of Effexor within two weeks using a flexible-dosing strategy. This method becomes most important once you arrive at 25% of your original dosage. I would not drop from 37.5mg to 0mg. You still have room for further tapering.
You might want to try first taking smaller doses of Effexor more frequently during the day. This helps compensate for the drug's short half-life and produces more stable blood levels. How small can you divide your dosages? I took amounts of Effexor that were small enough to require that I take it 3-4 times a day. I probably worked down to 6.25mg doses. The "flexibility" lies in the freedom you allow yourself to take small amounts of medication only when you need to. It might actually be best to wait until withdrawal symptoms begin to appear before taking the next dose. Try not to let the symptoms persist for more than an hour, though. This is not only represents unecessary discomfort, but it might also be counterproductive in that it sparks a worsening of symptoms when they appear subsequently.
I wish I had the energy to write out in more detail the particulars of the flexible-dosing strategy. Perhaps you can look back at some of my previous posts. There really isn't that much more to say, though, if you grasp the fundamental principles.
1. Use smaller doses more frequently during the day.
2. Dose only when withdrawal symptoms appear
3. Try to use only enough drug to last 6-8 hours
4. Reduce the dosage of drug as the body permits
5. Try to use 6.25mg doses towards the end. Precision in dose size is not absolutely necessary, though. Approximations are sufficient. The flexibility in dosing period allows for this.
6. If 6.25mg lasts for more than 10 hours or further dosage reductions proves impractical, you might then consider complete discontinuation.
- Scott
Posted by Kimbersaur on August 16, 2005, at 0:15:33
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers? » Kimbersaur, posted by SLS on August 15, 2005, at 10:44:57
Thanks for going to all the trouble of typing that all out for me. I decided to try going from 37.5 to 0 today just to test out exactly how bad the withdrawal would be, and suprisingly, I have had no problems at all except for a bit more OCD, which I expected of course. I don't know if my luck will last long, but if not I will definitely try your flexible-dosing strategy. I'm sure I could cut my 37.5 tablets into fours if needed. I'm just a bit anxious to get off of it.
Posted by SLS on August 16, 2005, at 8:25:14
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by Kimbersaur on August 16, 2005, at 0:15:33
> I'm sure I could cut my 37.5 tablets into fours if needed. I'm just a bit anxious to get off of it.
Understood!
I can't see the harm in attempting discontinuation at this point. There are people who manage quite well. If it is going to happen, though, the worst usually begins at about 3 days after a large dosage reduction.
Good luck.
- Scott
Posted by tizza on September 9, 2005, at 19:30:24
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by SLS on August 16, 2005, at 8:25:14
Amanda I loved your comment about your pdoc and effexor rep, It made me laugh out loud. I have just gone from 150mg of effexor xr to 75mg quite smoothly but in response to the brain zaps that I got from coming off 300mg of Luvox cold turkey well, I felt like someone had hot wired my head into an electrical socket that was set to 30 second intervals. Then I was left reeling with the head turning feeling for 30 secs before the next one hit. Kimbersaur, just taper really slowly because I didn't have the chance when I switched from Luvox to Effexor because I had to have a 4 day clean out period. I'm an Aussie and I think my doc was taken to Fiji by the Luvox rep. He switched my drugs and was then unavailable for 6 weeks before I could have a go at him about the hell I went through. Just remember that tapering is the key. I was told that I would be JUST FINE.
Posted by ReadersLeaders on September 11, 2005, at 22:48:25
In reply to What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by Kimbersaur on August 12, 2005, at 18:17:08
> What do you mean by "brain zaps" and "brain shivers?" Can someone please describe these withdrawal symptoms?
From the website: "Focus on Recovery"
More specifically this web address:
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/focussober/vpost?id=450903Poster: LittleBlue
Date Posted: 5/20/05
"I'm a nursing student, and I also happen to be going through hellish effexor withdrawal. Maybe I can try and explain what is happening in your brain!
Depression is often a result of lack of serotonin, dopamine and other neuro-transmitters in your brain. These transmitters pass signals from brain cell to brain cell. Sertotonin and dopamine are responsible for regulating mood and emotion.
Normally, the brain recycles these transmitters...that is, once they pass from one nerve to another and do their job, they turn back around and go through the transmission again. This is referred to as "reuptake" and ultimately lowers the concentration and effectiveness of the transmitter.
Anti-depressants like Effexor work by removing the recycling mechanism, blocking the reuptake process. This makes the transmitter stronger. The increased strength of the transmitter increases activity in the part of the brain which it effects, which in this case is the part of the brain that produces happy feelings.
When you stop taking Effexor, the "block" that has been placed in the return pathway of the transmitter is removed. This can have an effect like opening a floodgate. A concentraton of transmitters has built up behind the block, and this concentration is suddenly flooding into your brain. It is confusing because although it HELPS your mood to have MORE serotonin, it becomes counter-productive when there is this sudden increase that happens with withdrawal. This flood of transmitter produces a concentrated rise in the excitability of nerve cells. These nerve cells in your brain are suddenly dealing with more transmitter being circulated, which increases the rate and number of electrical impulses whizzing around in your brain.
In other words, there is a very unnatural amount of electrical activity going on. I think this is why the effects feel so "zappy" and so much like electric shocks.Also, I know that too high a concentration of dopamine causes what they call "overactive brain"...hallucinations, difficulty telling reality from imagination. This is probably what causes the vivid dreams and nightmares.
This is my understanding of why we get these withdrawal symptoms. Hope it helps!
If you want to read my story check my other posts. I am on day 13 now of withdrawal and still feel like crap, but I find that it really helps to understand what is actually happening in my brain. Keep asking questions!"
This helped me a lot!
RL
Posted by michelle_13 on September 28, 2007, at 15:11:53
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by ReadersLeaders on September 11, 2005, at 22:48:25
Have you tried an Omega 3 supplement? Supposedly this can eliminate these in just days. I'm going to get some immediately after I get off work today.
Posted by springchick19 on June 18, 2008, at 12:08:33
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by DizzyNikki2 on August 13, 2005, at 16:46:42
I like to describe these brain zaps (or I've heard brain shivers) as like that flash that you see when you turn off the television. Maybe the newer televisions don't do that...but all of the tvs that I grew up with did and I'm only 28! It is like a circular flash in your head that either collapses in or spreads out. Like- ZING! I just yanked the electric cord out of the wall!
It makes sense that it is an electric disturbance in the brain- it certainly feels that way.
I have them all the time now, even when I take my effexor on time and I have never come across a doctor who's heard of this. I know it is not supposed to be dangerous, but I cannot see when it happens to me. It's like a sneeze- you lose vision for just a second as it happens. As I frequently have 5 or 6 in a row, I worry that it will happen while I'm driving or something and that I won't be able to react to what is happening around me!
Posted by Michelle_13 on June 18, 2008, at 12:21:29
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by springchick19 on June 18, 2008, at 12:08:33
I had that with effexor too. You need to increase your dose. Your body is metabolizing it quicker. Are you taking extended release? If not, that may work better for you. Hope this helps.
Posted by springchick19 on June 18, 2008, at 13:04:23
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by Kimbersaur on August 14, 2005, at 14:05:40
I've heard that a really good way to get off of these meds is to start on prozac at the same time. Because effexor is processed by your system so quickly and prozac takes a long time to process, you can slowly build up the prozac in your system while you wean yourself off of the effexor. It is supposed to help the symptoms, from what I've heard.
Posted by springchick19 on June 18, 2008, at 13:07:38
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers? » springchick19, posted by Michelle_13 on June 18, 2008, at 12:21:29
Yes, I have the extended release but I am already taking 225mg. I've tried increasing it before but it didn't seem to help- I just had more side effects and no extra benefit.
I actually hate effexor(!), but I have been on it for 6 years or so and I am afraid of not being able to function without it and I really don't want to go through the withdrawal!
Posted by Scooter1908 on August 8, 2008, at 15:49:53
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by SLS on August 16, 2005, at 8:25:14
I had horrible brain zapping when I quit taking Cymbalta cold turkey. It lasted for over two months. If I had to do it over again I would certainly wean off the drug. Quiting any drug cold turkey is probably not a good idea, but I had money problems and really no choice. I still have problems with being depressed, but I'm scared to try another drug. The good news is my brain zapping finally went away.
Posted by Michelle_13 on August 8, 2008, at 16:55:56
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by Scooter1908 on August 8, 2008, at 15:49:53
ALL anti depressants cause zap's when you get off cold turkey. Even if you wean off you get some, albeit not as severe. I wouldn't play around with starting and stopping ur meds... it will only make you more depressed. If you have a county hospital near you they will provide them at little to no cost if you don't have insurance. The psychiatrist visits are usually based on a slide-in scale based on your income. Good luck!
Posted by dock on November 12, 2008, at 4:06:27
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by ReadersLeaders on September 11, 2005, at 22:48:25
>Sertotonin and dopamine are responsible for
>regulating mood and emotion.
>
I think it's norepinephrine, not dopamine.
Posted by ERMRug on February 27, 2009, at 9:44:13
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by springchick19 on June 18, 2008, at 12:08:33
OH hell, so that's what they're called! Well, now I need to translate "brain zaps and shivers" into Italian for my docs here because it's a damn hard thing to describe to someone.
I get EYEBALL zaps! If I move my eyes back and forth it's like I can HEAR them, like the sound of two dry hands rubbing together.
It's all connected to the brain, I know, and I'm sure it's not serious, but it's too weird.
And I feel like my brain is moving if I turn my head. Yeah, ok, I know it's moving WITH my head, but I mean, like IN my skull it's moving at it's own pace to catch up with my movements.
OK, so, seeing how hard it is to describe in English, I realise how hard it is to do so in my second language...arrrgh.
Posted by Gmill on July 13, 2009, at 19:56:38
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by ERMRug on February 27, 2009, at 9:44:13
Oh yeah, the dreaded brain zaps! to me it is electrical pulses that occur for no reason or if I make sudden movements. They usually occur upon sudden discontinuation of certain medications. for me, if I quit taking my Lexapro (anti depressant) I get them approximately 3-4 days later and are so annoying. My doctor has the official name for it but can't remember however it is a legitimate condition usually due to the discontinuation of certain medications.
Posted by Gmill on July 13, 2009, at 20:01:03
In reply to Re: What are brain zaps and brain shivers?, posted by Michelle_13 on August 8, 2008, at 16:55:56
I agree,
It seems to me that only the antidepresants cause them when you go cold turkey. It happens if I don't take my Lexapro for a few days. It sux!!!
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