![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on January 1, 2005, at 20:19:42
In reply to Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 1, 2005, at 19:51:15
about relapse rates? ie - how many people do not choose to continue administering shocks to themselves?
I would have thought that this would be one of the biggest problems.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 1, 2005, at 20:23:11
In reply to Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 1, 2005, at 19:51:15
>My is web site on how we can win the war on drugs and alcohol by teaching people how to self administered electric "shocks" as a negative reinforcer.
See now here I think you really mean a punisher and not a 'negative reinforcer'. See a negative reinforcer is the taking away of a NEGATIVE stimuli in order to REINFORCE (increase the frequency) of a certain response. A punisher, on the other hand is the administering of a negative stimuli (such as an electric shock) to decrease the frequency of a response, such as drug and alchohol use.
By the way, I do not like your implication that homosexuality is an undesirable behaviour.
Posted by yellowbrickroad on January 1, 2005, at 22:50:52
In reply to Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 1, 2005, at 19:51:15
We'd all be some rich-*ss drunks and addicts by now.
It's not like the people on these boards have never seen a self-proclaimed Messiah of Recovery.
What we've never seen is one of these methods that lasts longer than the money-back guarantee.
What we've never seen is a doctor worth his salt who would endorse such an approach...but when two parties that make their living off of our illnesses are throwing stones at each other, it's easy for the sick to believe anything nasty about either or both of them, isn't it?
The doctors are in it for the money, after all, aren't they? At some point, we have all felt this.
But then what are the charlatans with the miracle cures in it for? And how many years of cut-throat schooling did they put themselves through for the benefit of their craft? How many years of student loans are they paying off? How much malpractice insurance do they pay for the right to continue "helping" people?
You know, all of us who have been slaves to our addictions have had the desire to punish ourselves for them. This is why 12 step groups can--unfortunately--devolve into cults of confession...endless moral inventories that add up to non-stop self punishment. Every bad feeling, every misstep must be exposed as the end result of some sin of our own.
Well, not every addict buys into that approach. I don't. I would never tell another drunk or addict to relentlessly find fault with themselves in order to recover, and I wouldn't put up with anyone else telling me to do the same.
And I wouldn't smile and tell you that I don't think you should feel guilty, that it's not your fault, but go ahead and shock, slap, or cut your way back to sobriety. As a former self-injurer, I can tell you that it's an addiction in its own right. As a drunk, I can tell you that we punish ourselves enough already.
This is SICK.
I would take this approach as a joke if I didn't know how many people are just waiting for someone to tell them that what they really need is the right form of punishment for their illness. All of us feel guilty for not being well, at times. All of us have felt that we should be willing to try anything, that we are irresponsible if we don't.
Oh, and by the way, "Negative Reinforcement" does not mean what you think it does. Look it up. It means that a stimulus is REMOVED in order to encourage a certain behavior. How can you argue for something if you don't even understand the terms YOU use to explain it?
Food for thought.
YBR
Posted by Faradism.net on January 1, 2005, at 23:40:50
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by alexandra_k on January 1, 2005, at 20:23:11
> >My is web site on how we can win the war on drugs and alcohol by teaching people how to self administered electric "shocks" as a negative reinforcer.
>
> See now here I think you really mean a punisher and not a 'negative reinforcer'. See a negative reinforcer is the taking away of a NEGATIVE stimuli in order to REINFORCE (increase the frequency) of a certain response. A punisher, on the other hand is the administering of a negative stimuli (such as an electric shock) to decrease the frequency of a response, such as drug and alcohol use.
>
> By the way, I do not like your implication that homosexuality is an undesirable behaviour.
>
>Page 23. A test of 4,096 clients published June 1950 showed 60% abstinence.
http://proper.itgo.com/ThePunishmentCure.htmlVery well put and you are "en lo correcto". Thank you for taking the time to constructively edify me.
As for recidivism rates. I believe alot of people might be under the miss impression that all Aversion Therapy "Punishment" is about the same and that similar methods are used. There is no set standard.
Dr. Osmit of the Southwest Biological institute has a pain index category he numbers from 1. to 4. and I am sure the National Chronic Pain Society has it's own unit of measure.
Using Dr. Osmit's index, I believe that if you used a category 4. Electroversion (i.e. electrical used above 40 volts delivered in one sudden blast ) you might eliminate the spirit of cooperation in some less determined clients.
"Make sure the attitude of cooperation is not shocked out of existence". T.P.C. book Page 136 para 3. in the FILES section of Yahoo! Groups : Faradism.
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Faradism/message/189My version starts at zero volts and the people them selves produce as much current as they can tolerate.
A third principle character in the electrical intervention is the significant other or an associated problem such as a court order.
"Aversive Control. Control of the behaviour of another individual by use of psychologically noxious means; e.g., attempting to force better study habits by withholding a child's allowance, or withholding sexual contact unless the partner complies with a request".
Faradisms are done gently and slowly and on your own. It doesn't cost you a thing (I used a Dimmer Switch and fashioned a "Tens" myself).
There is a tendency to acclimate rather quickly to the event so the voltage has to be turned up surprisingly quick until you really can't take it any more. Other wise it's not aversive.
In the Punishment Cure book all but one therapist, use the sudden "shock" as the negative stimulus. ( did I say that right? :)).
Individual and cultural differences also factor in. In Mexico one is expected to "throw down" with the Chicharra or shock box as a macho game. For us it's just a part of life. Some people have more heart than others and the proof is in the pudding as they say. It works good for Mexicans.
You can't get a Tens Unit powerful enough in the USA for under about one hundred bucks but in Mexico they cost around twenty. Availability is a factor. You must have one with you for the sudden laps. Otherwise you almost have to start all over.
The drug in question is also an issue. It works best for crack because the rush is short lived and pairing the negative "thing" with the blast is easier. It has never been tested by professionals with real crack.They say it works better for some groups as opposed to others. In the Punishment Cure they speak of homeless types being less successful because of lower intelligence but I believe several factors might be at play. Such as not having a shock box with them at all times or the counselor teaching them is inexperienced (i.e. never was an addict and never used this method on himself)
The therapist might not have known what or how to communicate with the homeless or he might not have cared about them at all.
The Schick-Shadel.com 1-800-CRAVING ( who do their own form of Faradism has moved to an area where the college educated are in the majority.
That might indicate higher intelligence is called for BUT I did it with no help at all and I'm hardly one deemed to be of high intelegence ( Dad! How do you spell inteligence?).Happy New year and provecho.
The TIMEP.S.
If we had a nickel for every overnight cure...
Yea?.. and if my sister had balls she'd be my brother what up? You need a nickel? I'll give you a dime.This got me off of crack in one day and it's free!
Talk about money degrades healing so stuff it I'M OUT.See you on the T.V. The documentary channel. I'll make sure to down load your words of wisdom for all occasions. Can we call you at home for the interview. I can't wait to see what bloody axiom you'll spout next. I told you I wasn't intelligent, just sober. :)
Talk among yourselves I just realized by the idiots post the caliber of the group. He must of had someone take the entrance test for him (lol).
Page 7.) John Wesley founder of Methodism wrote in 1760 "How much sickness
and pain may be prevented or removed and how many lives saved by this UNPARALLEL'D REMEDY. And yet with what Vehemence has it been opposed?"(Page 10.) last line in paragraph 2. Stanford University Professor Alberto
Bandura concludes "It appears that behavioral technics can accomplish these
goals in a GREAT many cases".Later gold bricker.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 1, 2005, at 23:42:25
In reply to If we had a nickel for every overnight cure..., posted by yellowbrickroad on January 1, 2005, at 22:50:52
I have heard of behaviourist principles being used to treat addictions. I think that the point here may have more to do with the buying of an electric shock kit rather than just telling you to use a rubber band, however. Selling of the strategy instead of directing you to the text book it came from.
The hardest part of this 'strategy' (which I do quite honestly think should be seperated from SI) is getting people to not drop out of treatment (ie to continue to shock themselves). No suprises there, the hardest thing about ANY brand of treatment is getting people to adhere to the treatment.
I have also heard of token economies used for drug rehab. Would you stay clean for a week for $100? (Not to be used for drugs once the week is up!). Unfortunately people objected to paying addicts to stay clean.
> Well, not every addict buys into that approach.
Woo hoo I have found another!!! Well done you! (I should probably take this opportunity to advise you that there are many people here who very much like the AA NA approach).
> This is SICK.
Um. You might get a civility warning for that one?
Posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2005, at 0:01:51
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 1, 2005, at 23:40:50
But do you have to buy a box? And what is wrong with the old rubber band on the wrist trick? Now my question is probably better stated as the following:
Out of all the people who brought (or were given) the apparatus to do this - how many of them stayed clean for a while. And of course, what I am really interested in is how many said to themselves 'bugger this!'.
Now, I may have some of the details wrong. Please correct me anybody at all.
I once heard a story (in a lecture) that there was a lady who had a baby with a disorder. The infant refused to eat. If milk was placed in its mouth it would spit it out. The upshot was that if something wasn't done then the baby would die.
The lady heard of a behaviourist and went to see if something could be done. Indeed, something could be done. If the spitting out of food were to be followed by a mild shock then the baby would stop doing this and would not die. The woman asked the behaviourist to do this to her baby. The behaviourist said something like: 'In the USA it is illegal to administer (positive) punishers'. He would lose his lisence to practice if he did this to her baby. He would probably lose his lisence to practice if he showed her how (and gave her the equipment) to do this herself. She fought this in court. The baby died.
And that, ladies and gentlemen (according to my appalling memory) is the story of the positive / negative distinction of both punishers and reinforcers. It is okay to put a kid in time out because time out is the removal of something positive (company) not the administering of a punisher (isolation). No no no, there is a HUGE difference, god forbid.
>you might eliminate the spirit of cooperation in some less determined clients.
Yeah, no sh*t! Pain results in lashing out, of both animals and people. I think to call these people 'less determined' may be instructive. Those who succeed in drug treatment may well have succeeded in almost any other variety of drug treatment. You can't say 'but they tried that first and it didn't help' - because maybe they weren't as determined then as they are now.
> A third principle character in the electrical intervention is the significant other or an associated problem such as a court order.
Do you mean it is illegal to administer these shocks to anyone other than yourself?
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 0:30:10
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2005, at 0:01:51
> But do you have to buy a box? ((((((((( No you can use a pre-exsisting pain like arthritis or a tooth aliment. You could use vinager while you drink or smoke. Thats aversive as ACK.)))))))) And what is wrong with the old rubber band on the wrist trick? Now my question is probably better stated as the following:
>
> Out of all the people who brought (or were given) the apparatus to do this - how many of them stayed clean for a while. ((((Do you mean before re-boostering? All of them. It was about ten years before I relapsed on crack. It happened fast and I didn't have a shock box. The day I made one, I was off f it within 24 hours. Their still talking about it in Compton. Others i have lent my shock box to leave the drug infested area and never come back. I saw only at a baileys all buffed out and happy. I lent him the box for about one hour! )))) And of course, what I am really interested in is how many said to themselves 'bugger this!'. ((((((((((( it is for people who volunteer for treatment. It is not forced on anyone.)))))))))
>
>
> The lady heard of a behaviourist and went to see if something could be done. Indeed, something could be done. If the spitting out of food were to be followed ((((((((((THe "shock" doesn't FOLLOW the targeted event. It is done at the same time. And that story is in the Punishment text. Don't bother do do anything intelligent (sp?) before you judge it now. I told you where its down loaded to. wanta nickel to look it up?)))))))))by a mild shock then the baby would stop doing this and would not die. The woman asked the behaviourist to do this to her baby. The behaviourist said something like: 'In the USA it is illegal to administer (positive) punishers'. He would lose his license to practice if he did this to her baby. He would probably lose his license to practice if he showed her how (and gave her the equipment) to do this herself. She fought this in court. The baby died.> >you might eliminate the spirit of cooperation in some less determined clients.
>
> Yeah, no sh*t! Pain results in lashing out, of both animals and people. (((((( Only if it is a sudden pain. )))))) I think to call these people 'less determined' may be instructive. Those who succeed in drug treatment may well have succeeded in almost any other variety of drug treatment. You can't say 'but they tried that first and it didn't help' - because maybe they weren't as determined then as they are now.(((((((I prayed every day and night, I went to jail I lost my family and job! Don't tell me I wasn't determined. This is the only thing that worked.))))))))
>
> > A third principle character in the electrical intervention is the significant other or an associated problem such as a court order.
>
> Do you mean it is illegal to administer these shocks to anyone other than yourself? (((((((( When the book was written it was like being a weight trainer. Anyone could do it.))))))))
> I am sorry it is real hard to type. Please call me if you really want information on this. Happy New Year everyone.
Posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 1:00:15
In reply to Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 1, 2005, at 19:51:15
This is what I saw when I went to the site to check out the downloaded text:
"Your joining these groups endorses the method in question and sends a highly needed message to politicians and news broadcasters to start Faradism Clinics around the world or to disseminate information to help people develop their own faradic technic. Post any pertinent information or questions here."
In order to read the text, I would have to join the group, and I am told that joining implies endorsement.
Posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 1:06:48
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 1, 2005, at 23:40:50
This response to my post was added to the end of a response to someone else:
"P.S.
If we had a nickel for every overnight cure...
Yea?.. and if my sister had balls she'd be my brother what up? You need a nickel? I'll give you a dime.This got me off of crack in one day and it's free!
Talk about money degrades healing so stuff it I'M OUT.See you on the T.V. The documentary channel. I'll make sure to down load your words of wisdom for all occasions. Can we call you at home for the interview. I can't wait to see what bloody axiom you'll spout next. I told you I wasn't intelligent, just sober. :)
Talk among yourselves I just realized by the idiots post the caliber of the group. He must of had someone take the entrance test for him (lol).
Page 7.) John Wesley founder of Methodism wrote in 1760 "How much sickness
and pain may be prevented or removed and how many lives saved by this UNPARALLEL'D REMEDY. And yet with what Vehemence has it been opposed?"(Page 10.) last line in paragraph 2. Stanford University Professor Alberto
Bandura concludes "It appears that behavioral technics can accomplish these
goals in a GREAT many cases".Later gold bricker. "
Actually, I'm a woman. And you can post to me directly, if you'd like.
Posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 1:24:00
In reply to Re: If we had a nickel for every overnight cure... » yellowbrickroad, posted by alexandra_k on January 1, 2005, at 23:42:25
I have found, to my own surprise, that there is a lot to like about AA and NA, too. That came when I met several people in different meetings who were not at all like those I had encountered for years.
I've actually found some good meetings, too.
My previous bad experiences had to do with certain groups that, IMO, distorted the program into a RELENTLESS quest for flaws, failings, and sins. All that constant self-examination began with some kind of assumption that we were there to root out the evil in us. It was more like a cult, in that way.
But I've since met sober people who don't do it like that. At all. And I always think that the free sources of help (like AA) are invaluable.
I have often wondered if the reason I found my way to the "bad" groups for such a long time is that their message was a strong one, and it spoke to the self-hatred I was filled with. Now that I'm older and less interested in finding out "what's wrong with me," I'm more likely to find the supportive people in the program. In any event, I'm glad that I can still consider AA to be an option. And I'm glad that I live in an area with so many meetings that it's possible to find ones where I'm comfortable.
YBR
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 1:35:41
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 0:30:10
This is what I saw when I went to the site to check out the downloaded text:
"Your joining these groups endorses the method in question and sends a
highly needed message to politicians and news broadcasters to start Faradism Clinics around the world or to disseminate information to help people develop their own faradic technic. Post any pertinent information or questions here."
In order to read the text, I would have to join the group, and I am
told that joining implies endorsement.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~You can join JUST long enough to read the book. as for not knowing the proper terms I apologise I was only 15 when I went to college and it has been a long eventful life since then.
Only thingy i remember is respect for others and not putting up with el censorshipos who talk first and never apologise for their offences later.
What are you so afraid of? I have more practical ( prima facie ) knowledge of this therapy than anyone one Earth. I'm doing a documntary on it this month. I have been on brodcast in the Us and Mexico in two languages.
I teach politicians and doctors alike. Its analgolus to a lesbian eating another lesbian, she can do it better because she has had one for years. I don't think you ever have. Done Faradic Aversion Therapy. I mean, you probably think its E.C.T. Thanks for beating me over the head with the basic psy.1. course, I am sure thats why you learned it. Did you read the part about Bi-polarism? You can call me right now. I am not a bad person or masia (sp?/meaning?) or snake oiler.
I always get beat up by people like you who so desperatly try to protect their tuff. I'am not a threat to anyone. I came here on new years day to give what I could to help others. What did I do wrong? The TIME
Posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 1:42:44
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 1:35:41
Why can't I read the text without joining the group? It says on the site that joining implies endorsement. That means I would have to endorse it in order to gain access to the information in the first place.
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 1:47:14
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic » Faradism.net, posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 1:42:44
> Why can't I read the text without joining the group? It says on the site that joining implies endorsement. That means I would have to endorse it in order to gain access to the information in the first place.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The book is out of print or I would send you one. I will however re-word the page so it doesn't offend you and you can peruse the text at your leasure. You can send me the right words to use by this medium or directly to my e-mail via my faradism.net contact form.
Posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 1:55:43
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 1:47:14
And when/where will your TV appearance take place?
Posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 1:57:57
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 1:47:14
It's about endorsing something in order to read about it.
What if I don't want to send a message to my Congressman that I support this method?
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 2:02:36
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic » Faradism.net, posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 1:55:43
> And when/where will your TV appearance take place?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The appearances I have don't are listed at the bottom of my faradism.net page. The documentary is a work in progress with a gentleman and lady I met at a probation/parole job fair. They are supposed to calling me sometime this month.Now what do you want changed on the group pages?
The TIME
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 2:23:37
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 1:47:14
One of these might open I can't see them because I have a web TV unit and it can't make them resolve. http://proper.itgo.com/ThePunishmentCure.jpg
http://proper.itgo.com/The%2520Punishment%2520Cure.jpg
http://proper.itgo.com/The%20Punishment%20Cure2.jpg
http://proper.itgo.com/The%20Punishment%20Cure.jpg
The TIME
Posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2005, at 2:23:52
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic » yellowbrickroad, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 2:02:36
I do have to say that it is strange to say you have to endorse it before you can read it. How do you know whether you want to endorse it or not until you have read it?
I think that what is hard to take is that you seem to be portraying this as a 'wondercure' for addiction. Just like how there are 'wondercure' ways to lose weight, or whatever. It sounds like your technique worked great for you, and that it has worked great for some other people too. That is terrific. But maybe be a bit cautious about overextending that to ALL people with addiction.
Seeing as this is all very behaviouristically oriented and all it is worth considering the relationship between 'determination' and cesation once again. According to behaviourism either (a) there aren't any mental states or (b) mental state terms refer to classes of behaviour. On the first analysis 'determination' is meaningless, a 'mentalism'. On the second, the mark of determination is cessation. If you cease then you were determined, if you do not cease then you were not determined. If you don't like this (most find it unpalatable) then perhaps it can be taken to illustrate that while behavourism may be ok insofar as it goes it leaves something very important out of the picture indeed.
P.S. on timing. So you say that in this instance the punisher is meant to be administered at the SAME TIME. The same time as what, exactly - an urge to use? A thought of using? In the behaviourist literature I have encountered (not a heck of a lot of it thank god) timing has indeed been an issue. They want to know the optimal time between the stimuli and the reinforcer so as to better control the behavioural output they require. I thought that same time delivery was very hard to come by indeed. If we are talking delivery in response to an urge or a thought then there inevitably will be a time delay. First you have to notice, and then you have to deliver. Quickly, to be sure, but I don't think that 'at the same time' is as effective as immediately (unscientific sorry) after.
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 3:51:52
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic » Faradism.net, posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2005, at 2:23:52
I do have to say that it is strange to say you have to endorse it before you can read it. How do you know whether you want to endorse it or not until you have read it?
~~~~~~~
This is what you would be endorsing, it is on the cover page before you join:
Antediluvian short cut to drug,nicotine and alcohol craving extinction. The primary purpose of this e-group will be to bring together for public dissemination, information about Faradic Drug and Alcohol Abuse Free Resistance Aversion Training or Counter-Imprinting. Faradism is a psychotronic application employing a common "Tens Unit" that is used to deliver a small electrical skin shock (to the hand) pared with targeted behaviors which eliminates ALL desires to drink, smoke or use. Works great with diet and libido control too. This got me off of crack in 1 day, alcohol in 2 days and cigarettes in 3 days. This group is for those who feel baseline cognitive and other adjunct group talk/faith therapies have failed them and are willing to acquiesce to newer more practical or intensive forms of therapy. Roberto "like the \\//\\// || //\\// ]]))" Carbajal 915-833-4602
wWw.FARADISM.net
Your joining these groups endorses the method in question and sends a highly needed message to politicians and news broadcasters to start Faradism Clinics around the world or to disseminate information to help people develop their own faradic technic. Post any pertinent information or questions here.
Electrodiet group
EMOTIONAL CONTROL Group
FaradicSexResistance group
Black Box method of quitting Drugs!
Shock box diagram
"The Punishment Cure" Book
EN ESPANOL
~~~~~~~~~~~
I think that what is hard to take is that you seem to be portraying this as a 'wondercure' for addiction. Just like how there are 'wondercure' ways to lose weight, or whatever. It sounds like your technique worked great for you, and that it has worked great for some other people too. That is terrific. But maybe be a bit cautious about overextending that to ALL people with addiction. Point taken. Seeing as this is all very behaviouristically oriented and all it is worth considering the relationship between 'determination' and cessation once again. According to behaviourism either (a) there aren't any mental states or (b) mental state terms refer to classes of behaviour. On the first analysis 'determination' is meaningless, a 'mentalism'. On the second, the mark of determination is cessation. If you cease then you were determined, if you do not cease then you were not determined. If you don't like this (most find it unpalatable) then perhaps it can be taken to illustrate that while behaviorism may be ok insofar as it goes it leaves something very important out of the picture indeed.
~~~~~~
You mean like the 12 step social model does? "The new approach to alcoholism puts practicality before ideology.What works? Keeping motivation high, for starters. And it's not even necessary to admit you are an alcoholic to curb drinking".
~~~~~~~~~
P.S. on timing. So you say that in this instance the punisher is meant to be administered at the SAME TIME. The same time as what, exactly - an urge to use? A thought of using? In the behaviourist literature I have encountered (not a heck of a lot of it thank god) timing has indeed been an issue. They want to know the optimal time between the stimuli and the reinforcer so as to better control the behavioural output they require. I thought that same time delivery was very hard to come by indeed. If we are talking delivery in response to an urge or a thought then there inevitably will be a time delay. First you have to notice, and then you have to deliver. Quickly, to be sure, but I don't think that 'at the same time' is as effective as immediately (unscientific sorry) after.
~~~~~~~~~~~
If I could type I would have told you before you asked. If you had read my web page or group messages you would have found the answer to any question you could possible ask. I smoked a ( just to let you know that the moment I started writing this sentence I got hit by disgust because i had to reminisce about the drug! ) twenty dollar rock WHILE I took a self administered electroversion to my left hand and this was so easy. I had one of the apparatus ( dimmer switch ) electrodes taped to my trigger finger while I held the other by digital opposition. The pipe was in between.
I did the same with the alcohol and cigarettes. So did the Therapist who cured the baby. She was throwing up all the food she ingested. Not that she wouldn't ingest. she would but would then throw it up involuntarily. The shocks were given while she threw up. Kagen and Halveman (sp?) Psy.1.
http://members.tripod.com/~s_croll/crackcure/id6.html
"""""""""""""""""""""""
"The programs most alcoholics choose are based on the Minnesota Model, which
views alcoholism as an incurable disease. It involves group counseling to
confront a "denying" drunk, education about alcohol's consequences, and confessional self-help organizations like the AA. There are already cracks in the Minnesota Model's clinical monopoly. Although the personal experiences of thousands of alcoholics attest to the model's value, its failure rate--about 50 percent--reveals the futility of assembly-line
treatment. Indeed, aversion therapy, stress-management, and family therapy are
proving effective for many alcoholics".http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19940901-000025.html
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Alternative Alcoholism Treatment-Drug Rehab Center: Schick Shadel Hospital
Alternative Alcoholism Treatment-Drug Rehab Center: Schick Shadel Hospital #1 Success Rate in The World
http://www.schick-shadel.com"The fact that the owners of Schick Shadel are ALL former patients says a lot about the success of our addiction treatments. While we were all thrilled that our lives were given back to us in a ridiculously short amount of time at the hospital, we still had to make a business decision on our investment. When you knew first hand that Schick's medical treatment for chemical dependency worked, the decision to invest in Schick Shadel was an easy one".
Posted by chemist on January 2, 2005, at 4:33:31
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic » Faradism.net, posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2005, at 2:23:52
hello there...first of all, the citations given in the original post by mr. carbajal are incorrectly referenced, and there is a dearth of literature from the esteemed authors smith and frawley. included by mr. carbajal is a link to a reprint of a ``famous article'' by smith, frawley, and polissar. i note that frawley's CV containes numerous factual errors. fortunately, i have access online to the ISI science citation index (i am a theoretical chemical physicist, holding a Ph.D. in the area(s)), and the article is actually double-published, in two journals: j. addictive diseases (1997, and cited a grand total of 4 times in the past 7 years); and alcoholism-clin. exp. res (1991, cited 11 times in 14 years). the esteemed dr. frawley has a total of 16 refereed citations in the literature (1984 - 1997), 4 of which are 1-page letters to the editor commenting on other work; and 1 is a meeting abstract. of the 11 actual publications, the big winner for citations - 14 since publication in 1990 - is by frawley and smith and concerns ``chemical aversion therapy in the treatment of cocaine dependence,'' with a cohort of 20 patients - all customers of drs. smith and frawley's chain of 10-day cure Schick Shadel Hospital in Santa Barbara - and faradic therapy was not used: rather, a cocaine substitute was umployed to hasten aversion to the ``sight, smell, and taste'' of the real thing.
the schick shadel hospitals are worth investigating: they are pay-as-you-go betty-ford style clinics run by businessmen with medical degrees.
faradic therapy is a perpetuation of anecdotal and placebo-like ``effect'' that has been reported to ``cure'' epilepsy 150+ years ago and remains a great way to fatten one's bank account.
a primary inductor - a conducting, wound coil with electrical current normal to the magnetic field, as per the fundamentals of electrodynamics - induces an electric current in a second inductor, coupled with a resistor which in turn produces periodic bursts or, on a lower level, more frequent oscillations of the magnetic field (from the second inductor).
this is as old (literally) as faraday and maxwell. the rTMS business of late is the same business being pushed by mr. carbajal, albeit in a much more professional and controlled manner. the magnetic field is alleged to play with the electric field within the noggin, and there are bits and pieces in the literature every once in a while yet this methodology is most of utility in constructing transformers.
the above comments are not meant to be uncivil, but rather to inform the unknowing that behind a yahoo web site is a whole lot of nothing: the electrodynamics/statics, dearth of literature, questionable private-sector promotions, and downright evidence that addictions are better addressed by so many proven and effective remedies (e.g., imipramine for cocaine), not to mention the blatant advertising on this site for a toy electrical device for which the schematics are not correct, should be interpreted as nothing but factual information denying this person's claims.
all the best, chemist (and physicist too...)
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 6:25:15
In reply to thought i'd drop by..., posted by chemist on January 2, 2005, at 4:33:31
hello there...first of all, the citations given in the original post by mr. carbajal are incorrectly referenced
~~~~~~~~~~~~
You state this in the plural. All I "cited" was the journal of addictive medicine
~~~~~~~~~~~
is by frawley and smith and concerns ``chemical aversion therapy in the treatment of cocaine dependence,´´ with a cohort of 20 patients - all customers of drs. smith and frawley´s chain of 10-day cure Schick Shadel Hospital in Santa Barbara - and faradic therapy was not used: rather, a cocaine substitute was employed to hasten aversion to the ``sight, smell, and taste´´ of the real thing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My apologies I'm just a total idiot that learns by testing and doing not by reading about what somebody else done. And you are mistaken as to who the study was made on. They did use faradic therapy and chemical aversion. The faradic showed higher success since it is more controllable. Read the post. As to a placebo Crack cocaine, You are "en lo correcto" my bombastic friend. If you used the real thing you would be busted (that means incarcerated for the foreigners ejumucation ). BUT if you did use the real thing as I did then you would target the real reason people use crack and thats for the rush not the taste. Thus making it much more treatable. Your is like tooting on a straw to get someone to quit smoking tobacco. Doctor Please.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
the schick shadel hospitals are worth investigating: they are pay-as-you-go betty-ford style clinics run by businessmen with medical degrees.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Excuse me they were bought and sold a few years back and now it is run by former patients. Read the web I provided.
~~~~~~~~~~
faradic therapy is a perpetuation of anecdotal and placebo-like ``effect´´ that has been reported to ``cure´´ epilepsy 150+ years ago and remains a great way to fatten one´s bank account.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What I propose is a do it your selfer. It cost me a five dollar dimmer switch and a rock. N. V. Kantorovich 1920` findings were largely ignored page 21 para 3 & 4 the Punishment cure. page 22 para 1. " The uncertainties are compounded by the bitter backbiting in the alcoholism research field, with investigators who have put all their life work and reputation into one basket jealously guarding it, while trying to tip over the basket of the kid down the street. "
~~~~~~~~~~~
a primary inductor - a conducting, wound coil with electrical current normal to the magnetic field, as per the fundamentals of electrodynamics
- induces an electric current in a second inductor, coupled with a resistor which in turn produces.....
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Whatever has nothing to do with a dimmer switch or aversion conditioning. One guy in Japan used the pain from bee stings.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
this is as old (literally) as faraday and maxwell. the rTMS business of late is the same business being pushed by mr. carbajal, albeit in a much more professional and controlled manner. the magnetic field is alleged to play.....
~~~~~~~~~~~~
whatever, Electric eels were used before them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
with the electric field within the noggin,
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Its only to one hand. It never goes near the "noggin". You guys and your fancy terms.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
the above comments are not meant to be uncivil, but rather to inform the unknowing that behind a yahoo web site is a whole lot of nothing: the electrodynamics/statics, dearth of literature, questionable private-sector promotions, and downright evidence that addictions are better addressed by so many proven and effective remedies (e.g., imipramine for cocaine), not to mention the blatant advertising on this site for a toy electrical device for which the schematics are not correct, should be interpreted as nothing but factual information denying this person's claims.
~~~~~~~~~~
The schematic comes with the "toy" (actually it is a test kit for electrical engineers in Mexico given as extra course credit. Distributed by http://www.steren.com.mx
I have a sears one from 1906 I don't think you could not fathom out how it works. It involves physics. But you couldn't make as much money on that as the dope hu?
The Mexicans have dozens of ways of constructing "cajas de toques" or in the vernacular "chicharras". Thats not the point. You could use vinegar as a punisher or a tattooing for that matter, any thing but your dope. Off course YOU would want to get us off dope with dope :) Thats where the pesos are Hu my pecuniary minded friend. And in my group pages are other ways of making one. I invite you to post yours anonymously if your scared of losing money ). I followed the schematic and it worked fine. I am not a capitalist pig. I don't sell or advertise S*it. I am only working hard to save my people from drug dealers and drug makers who now run the FDA. who probably have money invested chemical concoctions the made in a wood shed.
The http://www.Schick-shadel.com center advertises that if you can smoke a cigarette in front of them in 5 days they will give you your money back. Wana take that bet? Just send someone who smokes there and put them to the test. Thats what your complaining about right? Not any test good enough for you?
Unless it involves dope cures. You and FDA are in for an awakening my tumid compadre. The days of drug dealers and drug makers are running out. Were taking responsibility for our own cures now and the very near future will prove me right.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
all the best, chemist (and physicist too...)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you Roberto carbajal welder ( freedom fighter. Musket Dueling Champion of the World )
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheDuel
Posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 10:33:11
In reply to Re: thought i'd drop by... » chemist, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 6:25:15
Hasn't anyone ever seen "A Clockwork Orange"?
YBR
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 12:21:17
In reply to Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 1, 2005, at 19:51:15
Because addiction has no solitary cause, the new view toward it demands that
single-minded approaches to drug treatment be abandoned. At least four studies, according to William Miller, have found no differences between groups of
alcoholics assigned to Alcoholics Anonymous and to no treatment at all. AA
simply doesn't work for a lot of people.The investigators, William Miller and Catherine Baca, M.D., of the University
of New Mexico's Center on Alcoholism, Substance Abuse and Addictions:
he says, the chug treatment community has been curiously resistant to using
what works. His colleague, Reed Hester, after a review of treatment outcomes
from 1980 to 1990, concluded that "despite much more knowledge of what works, treatment for substance abuse hasn't changed much in 40 years."
"Then we went looking for what was really happening. We gave one group the
manual and another group no manual. The manual turned out to be the variable
that was the potent treatment. But why?
"The key was that we had inadvertently motivated the control group and in spite
of our expectations, the addicts changed and moderated their drinking. Simply
giving them the manual, saying to them that we believed they could help
themselves, could handle it, you can do this, was enough."Feedback--specific and tailored to the individual, not general;
Responsibility--it's up to you, your choice, you are not a helpless victim of a
disease;Advice--firm and clear recommendations; Menu--there are different ways
to work this out; Empathy--the best therapists have this and are neither pushy
nor confrontational, but supportive and warm; and Self-efficacy--you can do it;
empowerment."Warm turkey." Tapering down and "sobriety sampling" give addicts a chance to kick their habits and help them not give up if they fail.
In the hands of trained therapists, this and other forms of "relapse prevention"
teaches addicts skills for coping with mistakes and setbacks. These methods also allow for moderate continuation of some addictions for some people, rather than insisting on total abstinence.
Some patients claim it not only stops cravings for long periods without
withdrawal, but also suppresses all desire for any drugs and generates an
emotional confrontation with their own thoughts and feelings, during which they
are inspired to reorganize their lives.Until now, says Miller, behavioral scientists have stuck to the conviction that
real change, if it happens at all, is gradual and painstaking. Now, says Miller,
we know that "relatively sudden and profound changes can and do occur, at least occasionally." If that capability could be harnessed, the impact on addiction
could be profound.Aversion therapy.
Toni Farrenkopf uses aversion conditioning to treat addictions, particularly those involving gambling and sexual behavior. He's worked with patients for whom a single incident of voyeurism, or indecent exposure, sometimes at a very early age, was so arousing that the addiction held
for decades."What we've learned is that people who are voyeurs and exposers are addicted to
the rush they get from contemplating, planning, and doing the behavior, not
necessarily from sexual release itself. With pedophiles, other factors drive the
addiction. But in all cases, you want to try and countercondition the behavior."Aversive therapy works by introducing negative consequences immediately after
the pleasurable experience occurs. One reason that many people don't become
addicted is that they rarely experience the worst consequences of their behavior
soon enough to override the pleasure.Farrenkopf uses covert sensitization with imagery. He'll show a sexual addict
arrest scenarios--being handcuffed, jailed, searched--10 seconds after an erotic
exposure and do this repeatedly. Or he'll expose them to a noxious odor or
painfully snap a rubber band on a wrist. "I help the patients experience all of
the painful things that happen when they are caught, or have to confront their
families after getting caught," he says. "It works for many."http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19940901-000021.html
Posted by chemist on January 2, 2005, at 20:23:49
In reply to Re: thought i'd drop by... » chemist, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 6:25:15
hello again, my comments delineated by asterisks below...all the best, chemist
> hello there...first of all, the citations given in the original post by mr. carbajal are incorrectly referenced
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> You state this in the plural. All I "cited" was the journal of addictive medicine*** actually you posted an abstract for an article that is published on-line, and is actually double-published over a six-year period. ****
> ~~~~~~~~~~~
> is by frawley and smith and concerns ``chemical aversion therapy in the treatment of cocaine dependence,´´ with a cohort of 20 patients - all customers of drs. smith and frawley´s chain of 10-day cure Schick Shadel Hospital in Santa Barbara - and faradic therapy was not used: rather, a cocaine substitute was employed to hasten aversion to the ``sight, smell, and taste´´ of the real thing.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*** the article i cite - and i do have actual journal reprint, not an abstract - is exactly about chemical aversion and faradic treatment is not invoked at all. i highly recommend that you actually read journal articles before you attempt to defend what the subject matter contained therein is about. i suggest a university/medical school library. ****
> My apologies I'm just a total idiot that learns by testing and doing not by reading about what somebody else done. And you are mistaken as to who the study was made on. They did use faradic therapy and chemical aversion. The faradic showed higher success since it is more controllable. Read the post. As to a placebo Crack cocaine, You are "en lo correcto" my bombastic friend. If you used the real thing you would be busted (that means incarcerated for the foreigners ejumucation ). BUT if you did use the real thing as I did then you would target the real reason people use crack and thats for the rush not the taste. Thus making it much more treatable. Your is like tooting on a straw to get someone to quit smoking tobacco. Doctor Please.
*** again, read the articles. in real journals. ****
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> the schick shadel hospitals are worth investigating: they are pay-as-you-go betty-ford style clinics run by businessmen with medical degrees.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Excuse me they were bought and sold a few years back and now it is run by former patients. Read the web I provided.*** i did. hence, the medical degree businessman comment. and they are pay-as-you-go. i assume you do object to the betty ford ref, i suspect? *****
> ~~~~~~~~~~
> faradic therapy is a perpetuation of anecdotal and placebo-like ``effect´´ that has been reported to ``cure´´ epilepsy 150+ years ago and remains a great way to fatten one´s bank account.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> What I propose is a do it your selfer. It cost me a five dollar dimmer switch and a rock. N. V. Kantorovich 1920` findings were largely ignored page 21 para 3 & 4 the Punishment cure. page 22 para 1. " The uncertainties are compounded by the bitter backbiting in the alcoholism research field, with investigators who have put all their life work and reputation into one basket jealously guarding it, while trying to tip over the basket of the kid down the street. "> ~~~~~~~~~~~
> a primary inductor - a conducting, wound coil with electrical current normal to the magnetic field, as per the fundamentals of electrodynamics
> - induces an electric current in a second inductor, coupled with a resistor which in turn produces.....
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
*** actually, it does: it is exactly how Faraday induction works. if you are going to make claims about therapy based upon a physical concepts proven experimentally and quantified two centuies ago, you should at least be aware of how the process works. ****
> Whatever has nothing to do with a dimmer switch or aversion conditioning. One guy in Japan used the pain from bee stings.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> this is as old (literally) as faraday and maxwell. the rTMS business of late is the same business being pushed by mr. carbajal, albeit in a much more professional and controlled manner. the magnetic field is alleged to play.....
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~*** ``whatever?'' even more reason to question your claims. so why are you not using bee venom or electric eels? too expensive, or too hard to market over the internet? ****
> whatever, Electric eels were used before them.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> with the electric field within the noggin,
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~**** wrong. your nerves do eventually involve some interation with your brain. otherwise, are you suggesting that the aversion therapy is working because you receive a pulse of induced electric field to the hand with which you might grasp a can of beer, perhaps? ****
> Its only to one hand. It never goes near the "noggin". You guys and your fancy terms.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> the above comments are not meant to be uncivil, but rather to inform the unknowing that behind a yahoo web site is a whole lot of nothing: the electrodynamics/statics, dearth of literature, questionable private-sector promotions, and downright evidence that addictions are better addressed by so many proven and effective remedies (e.g., imipramine for cocaine), not to mention the blatant advertising on this site for a toy electrical device for which the schematics are not correct, should be interpreted as nothing but factual information denying this person's claims.
> ~~~~~~~~~~
> The schematic comes with the "toy" (actually it is a test kit for electrical engineers in Mexico given as extra course credit. Distributed by http://www.steren.com.mx
> I have a sears one from 1906 I don't think you could not fathom out how it works. It involves physics. But you couldn't make as much money on that as the dope hu?*** i do not make money on ``dope.'' ****
> The Mexicans have dozens of ways of constructing "cajas de toques" or in the vernacular "chicharras". Thats not the point.*** yes, the Mexican government has been a leader in the area of pain administration for a long time: i believe Amnesty International has been a very interested onlooker *****
You could use vinegar as a punisher or a tattooing for that matter, any thing but your dope. Off course YOU would want to get us off dope with dope :)
**** i never stated what you assert. i would actually prefer that YOU not imply otherwise. ****
Thats where the pesos are Hu my pecuniary minded friend. And in my group pages are other ways of making one. I invite you to post yours anonymously if your scared of losing money ). I followed the schematic and it worked fine.
*** are you sure? what about the 1906 Sears model? and the schematic: that is fodder for a whole different discussion...****
I am not a capitalist pig. I don't sell or advertise S*it.
**** you are selling and advertising. the product does happen to be S*it, in so many ways. *****
I am only working hard to save my people from drug dealers and drug makers who now run the FDA.
**** drug dealers run the FDA? it is far from a perfect organization, yet i know that government jobs require a background check. perhaps the drug dealers have not been incarcerated or arrested and were recruited from the streets to help run the FDA? ****
who probably have money invested chemical concoctions the made in a wood shed.
**** can you please clarify what the above ``sentence'' means? gracias....****
> The http://www.Schick-shadel.com center advertises that if you can smoke a cigarette in front of them in 5 days they will give you your money back. Wana take that bet? Just send someone who smokes there and put them to the test. Thats what your complaining about right? Not any test good enough for you?
**** i do not smoke. i do not have to make that bet, and i am not ``complaining'' about any test being good enough for me. i am constantly complaining about the extreme ignorance displayed by people who peddle miracle cures as well as those who take them. ****
> Unless it involves dope cures. You and FDA are in for an awakening my tumid compadre. The days of drug dealers and drug makers are running out. Were taking responsibility for our own cures now and the very near future will prove me right.
*** let's hope the future involves proper use of the apostrophe by the faradic cult of wisdom, yes? ****
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> all the best, chemist (and physicist too...)
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Thank you Roberto carbajal welder ( freedom fighter. Musket Dueling Champion of the World )
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheDuel
>
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 21:38:20
In reply to Re: thought i'd drop by... » Faradism.net, posted by chemist on January 2, 2005, at 20:23:49
Obviously you didn't bother to read my first post. I am not a merchant. I don't "pedal" anything but a bike. Class is indicative and I don't think it comes from typing the proper syntax and the other typos you raised your college educated nose at. I apologize if my actions and motives offended you or anyone who reads the prior post. I am ashamed to have let myself get dragged down to that level of immaturity. I also would be receptive (tears welling up) to any suggestion that the group might offer. I desperately want to SEE people get better. I want to live in a better world, free from bickering. I don't know how to make this happen without adding to the confusion and pain. I am not a detached man, I have a passion for helping others. I wish you could see and hear from the people my counseling has rescued from the streets of skid row L.A. Before my father happened upon the "caja de toques" I was porting a dimmer switch with wires hanging from it telling people this got me off of crack in one day. I didn't realize it was such a big deal at first except after surviving multiple police assisted murder attempts and nurses and Doctors telling me how lucky I was to have survive and that this thing you call a God has a plan for me...well slow witted me said to myself..uh? I wonder if its that electrical thing? So here I am posting all over the world for years now. Again I apologize.
Roberto carbajal quixotic electro-ironworker. Protector of the all scientist who really want a better world and are humble enough to think their way might not be the only right way. Please forgive me ladies and gentleman and any one of you can call me at 915-833-4602 24/7. 1st.do no harm.
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