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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 5, 2003, at 17:44:49
In reply to Re: talking lettuce, posted by KimberlyDi on September 5, 2003, at 12:04:37
> I've had the same problem. My repressed anger runs free when I'm drinking. Strangely enough, I feel cleansed of anger afterwards, yet my husband pays the price. Then the cycle starts again.
>
> KDi in Texas
>
> > Katia,
> > Do your tornados correspond with alcohol imbibing? I do not ever get into rages, throwing things, etc., UNLESS I've been seriously drinking. It seems like my rage, which is usually justified but has not been healthfully released, feeds on itself and takes on it's own energy. Alcohol acts like gasoline on a simmering fire, usually towards my husband and prior to that to any man in my life who I felt triggered some deep hurt in me. I would get in touch with a hatred that I either didn't know was there to that intensity, or be able to contain it and work through it - but never completely if the insult was deep enough.
> >
> > I've said some horrible things to my husband. He can certainly get on my nerves in the best of times, but I do love him and normally would never willingly be so cruel. However, there have been times when he's been afraid for his safety. I am an avowed pacifist, a spiritual peaceworker. And I have gotten out of my mind with the urge to wreak havoc upon all living things. I've punched a hole through the wall, etc. But only when I've fanned the flames hot enough with alcohol. It's as though I no longer have conscious control, and sometimes no memory, of this inner insanely rageful furious harpy who I'm sure can take down a city block if she really got going. It really makes me wonder if that rageful demon always waits inside me ready to spring out when the walls are down, if I get invaded and overshadowed by the energy of hate when my protection is weak, who can say. I really don't know if it's my rage or someone or something else's.
> >
> > My father, however, who never drank, would always turn into a demonic sadistic brutal maniac when his malady struck. His BP manifested in hypomanic swings of multiple projects started and not completed, but more so of a simmering irritability which turned to rage and violence during the extreme mixed states stage, following by intense remorse and black depression. Fun times growing up. His sister was the same way. Mine take on much more of a hallucinogenic (lettuce talk) anguish but that may have something to do with what my neurons learned from my many acid trips.
> >
> > So, with that, what I've heard is that Depakote is probably the best mood stabilizer for this rageful type of mixed states, not that you're anything like my father was, but once again it's interesting how a subset of an illness has subsets of it's own, and on and on. If you're still enjoying your one glass of dopamine, it would be interesting to chart how you feel before and after and see if it incites any anger for you.
> > - Barbara
>
>
Posted by katia on September 6, 2003, at 13:33:04
In reply to Re: talking lettuce « KimberlyDi, posted by Dr. Bob on September 5, 2003, at 17:44:49
Hi Barb,
So, I'm not sure which board the following should be under! Substance abuse/alternatives/or medication!
I'm leaving it here.
so, I too have been abstaining since Sunday night and feel so much better for it. I'm also on this new diet for my metabolic type. The saddest part about it, is I'm following his instructions of one glass of wine ONLY per day and no more than five per week (I won't get to that). (I think I may just abstain altogether) And the big gun reason I'm following his instructions is not because of my health (not a strong enough factor), not b/c of Depakote (i.e. liver), but b/c I just spent $400 on testing and supplements that this better bloody work! And it's now or never. I can't keep doing this. I've just spent so much money and energy into a pdoc and a metabolic nutritionist to sort a life long mood problem out and I need to jump thru' the hole that has opened up for me. I can't miss this boat.
And the way I felt the past two times drinking on Depakote (after just two glasses of dopamine), I'm a bit scared to just have one at the moment. i enter into wacko land instantly.
And it just feels good now to be taking care of my body (in an educated way), for instance, I know that this is the right diet for my metabolic type and I'm not just stuffing a bunch of supplements down my throat b/c I "heard they're good for me". This feels right. I've even adapted to Xylitol in my coffee! (a healthy sub for sugar)(just one cup a day mind you - but that's the strongest cup!)
The fun part of this nutrition plan is for my type, I am suppose to eat more meat and less carbs and fruits and no soy! (And no wheat and less sugar.) So I threw my boca sausages away and subbed for chicken apple sausages! yum!
I asked my pdoc about the L-carnitine and he hadn't heard of it, and I told him what it was, he said it would be ok to take it, but start it now and then in a week start the Lamictal.
So you had an internal rash with the Lam? How long did that last? I keep having nightmares about the rash. Have you seen those pictures?
Glad to hear that you're doing better too.
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 14:51:41
In reply to Re: talking lettuce Barbara, posted by katia on September 6, 2003, at 13:33:04
Katia,
Got your message, yay! This is probably a more appropriate board for now because I'm going to be concentrating on REDUCING my meds, looking at my substance abuse, and increasing my overall health.I got the Metabolic Type Diet book a while back and it looked very interesting. I've been wanting to get the testing done but forgot about it until you mentioned it. How did you find this testing person? I've also been working with a high protein/fat low carb diet. I know I don't do well on simple sugars (hence the no alcohol - waaah!) but haven't always been a big protein eater or liker. I now eat fish and chicken 4-5 times a week, and meat every so often. I still hear that lettuce scream on occasion, so you can imagine the effect of a rare juicy hunk of steak.
The alcohol abstinence is very encouraging, it sounds like for you too, even though it's damned hard to give up such a delectable treat. I've had at least one glass of wine every night for at least 20 years now, and a few years back was taking Vicodin (a half a pill only) with it. It was such a lovely euphoric high that would have me feeling so mellow in no time. Plus it prevented any bad morning after headache. But whew, not good for a steady nightly diet. My poor liver.
Wouldn't it be a hoot to find out that after all this time it was booze that's been causing a large chunk of our problem? And that laying off it will make us feel even better than being on it? I really encourage you to abstain totally for at least 30 days, you'd have a good baseline to compare things from and that's enough time to detox and heal the nerves and see if this diet is making a difference for you. I don't know about you, but 5 glasses of D a week is more like a tease, and whooo boy, some glasses can sure hold a whole lotta liquid!
About lamictal, I never had The Rash, only an intense itching that was definitely NOT the rash. At first I thought I was developing an allergy to our cats (oh no!) then I thought I was getting flea bites or chiggers or some other microscopic beastie. I never associated lamictal with itching until I did a web search and got quite a few hits on anecdotal reports, some on this board, rather than from the medical literature.
The itching felt like little bees stinging and prickling, especially on my scalp, and nothing relieved it. I scratched until I bled. I felt terribly embarrassed in public, especially at a restaurant, because I must've looked like I had cooties. Eventually the itch moved into my ear canals and vagina. I was up to 175mg lamical and on the advice of my pdoc, reduced to 125mg. This made the itching subside in about 2 days and the lower dose felt better all around cause I was getting a little too hyped up on the higher amount. I'm really trying to not go beyond that point cause my fervent prayer is to get balanced enough to not need it, although I'll probably always need lithium (especially if it's good for the old brain cells). - Barbara
Posted by katia on September 6, 2003, at 15:41:20
In reply to Metabolic typing » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 14:51:41
> I got the Metabolic Type Diet book a while back and it looked very interesting. I've been wanting to get the testing done but forgot about it until you mentioned it. How did you find this testing person?
**I was referred two years ago by a friend. It's taken me this long to do it b/c I knew I'd have to make a strong committment to change my diet, mainly the drinking bit. It's under www.bloodph.com Dr. Kristal is the guy and it's actually in Marin. If you're ever back in the area or if he could refer you to someone there. It's not cheap. Also, there are four metabolic types and not everyone does well on the high protein one I'm on.
>>I've also been working with a high protein/fat low carb diet. I know I don't do well on simple sugars (hence the no alcohol - waaah!) but haven't always been a big protein eater or liker. I now eat fish and chicken 4-5 times a week, and meat every so often. I still hear that lettuce scream on occasion, so you can imagine the effect of a rare juicy hunk of steak.
Ha ha.....
> The alcohol abstinence is very encouraging, it sounds like for you too, even though it's damned hard to give up such a delectable treat. I've had at least one glass of wine every night for at least 20 years now
**I didn't realize you were having at least a glass every night. For some reason, I thought that you had two drinks per month. Yes, I think it's a HUGE factor in this illness. In fact, very frequently substance abuse goes hand in hand with BP and depression and other disorders. And the abuse masks the disorder and vice versa to where they get to be a tangles mess. I think it would be wise for us both to give it up for awhile anyway. To see what's what. One variable at a time....I feel pretty strongly about it, but what 'til I get back to work tomorrow. I won't go over one, but as you say abstaining seems easier. Unless I get a REALLY BIG GLASS. (it's just ONE glass right?) :-)
>My poor liver.
Milk thistle is good for the liver.
See ya over on the other board!
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 16:40:08
In reply to Re: Metabolic typing » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 6, 2003, at 15:41:20
>I didn't realize you were having at least a glass every night. For some reason, I thought that you had two drinks per month.
**I've been having 2 drinks a month on the average for the last 3 years since I got dx'd with fibromyalgia, but will go on the occasional binge and really feel it. Usually when I can't stand the anxiety or when I'm feeling really good. Lately I've had that phenonmena crop up where now that I'm feeling better, I want to 'celebrate' to keep the high going, like we discussed a few weeks ago. I was finding myself becoming very interested in the fine wine section at Costco. Chardonnay can appear as such an elegant, civilized way to celebrate feeling better, to savor the delights of life once again. Sneaky little demon.
I posted on another thread a helpful book I got with the addiction/abuse thing "The Heart of Addiction", Lance Dodes, MD. It's so far been the most helpful path I've come across to understand the intense drives that make us want to drink/drug, even when we KNOW better. My resolve has always faltered, like your comment about how you'll do when you get home from work, but this book contains some really interesting theories and has helped me keep my resolve. See ya - Barbara
Posted by katia on September 7, 2003, at 0:51:18
In reply to Re: Metabolic typing » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 16:40:08
The WAY that you describe chardonnay makes me want to indulge in some! Let's start calling it trashy, syrupy sweet, rancid chardonnay - want some?
I have heard that through continuous use (addiction), we create pathways in the brain that are only activated, i.e. dopamine released when given that substance. We literally have grooves in our brains or something like that that we need to reconstruct thru' years of abstinence. When I find the source and a better description, i"ll let you know.
I had a beer tonight, but didn't want anymore and I feel fine. Just one. This will be the test.
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2003, at 13:23:14
In reply to Re: Metabolic typing » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 7, 2003, at 0:51:18
Hi Katia,
Yes, please find that source if you can. I've heard a similar theory about fear gouging 'grooves' between the amygdala and cortex. The amygdala, being in the limbic center, can't listen to reason from the neocortex and the neocortex, getting habitual zings from the amygdala, interprets the signals as danger/fear and a neural pathway eventually gets setup that's more habit based than anything. I'd be real interested in which brain structure communications are implicated with substance abuse. I've heard the caudate accumbens where dopamine is made is a big player for the pleaure principle stimulation, but the possibility that neural pathways need to be severed and how that might happen is really fascinating.Funny thing, I also indulged last night - had one (smallish) glass of that disgusting yellow motor oil putrid swamp juice. Went out to dinner, thought 'Heck, it's Saturday, I'm having a nice meal out, eating protein to sop up the alcohol, let's just see'. One was quite enough and I had no desire to get high, to drink anything else. I didn't feel anything one way or the other physically this morning, maybe a little guilty after my staunch resolve.
My goal is moderate drinking, perhaps back to my 2 per month limit and never let it get out of hand again. I was able to do it for 3 years without too much trouble. I was so miserable, however, that my occasional binges were understandable - to me. They certainly weren't helping to heal my misery or chemisty but except for a few nasty scenes with my husband were not causing major problems. Those scenes with my husband caused me to abstain and it wasn't any big loss. But lately, with my Mom's death finally healing, financial pressures eased somewhat, feeling better, the curious urge for more more more enjoyment is looking alot like a manic impulse. Interesting, yes, but I don't want to be the lab rat and hurt myself doing the research. I'm now armed with enough reading material to understand the perils to support my resolve for moderation, if I feel it's safe to go that way, or total abstinance if it's too tempting. Obviously, bingeing is out forever more. I really have learned my lesson on that one. But for moderation to have any chance, it's crucial to abstain for at least 30 days, so say the books, and more like 90 - probably to break that neural connection. So it will be great to appreciate the structural neurological basis for doing so. It just helps me all around if I understand the underlying process. Hey, good to talk to you about all this, Katia. It's helping alot. - Barbara
> The WAY that you describe chardonnay makes me want to indulge in some! Let's start calling it trashy, syrupy sweet, rancid chardonnay - want some?
> I have heard that through continuous use (addiction), we create pathways in the brain that are only activated, i.e. dopamine released when given that substance. We literally have grooves in our brains or something like that that we need to reconstruct thru' years of abstinence. When I find the source and a better description, i"ll let you know.
> I had a beer tonight, but didn't want anymore and I feel fine. Just one. This will be the test.
> Katia> The WAY that you describe chardonnay makes me want to indulge in some! Let's start calling it trashy, syrupy sweet, rancid chardonnay - want some?
> I have heard that through continuous use (addiction), we create pathways in the brain that are only activated, i.e. dopamine released when given that substance. We literally have grooves in our brains or something like that that we need to reconstruct thru' years of abstinence. When I find the source and a better description, i"ll let you know.
> I had a beer tonight, but didn't want anymore and I feel fine. Just one. This will be the test.
> Katia
Posted by katia on September 7, 2003, at 15:27:09
In reply to Re: Metabolic typing » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2003, at 13:23:14
You make me laugh Barbara. tonight at work that's how I'll describe the chardonnay. And if you want a red, try this decomposed rancid skunk blood?
It's really helping me too. It seems we have similar patterns in regards to swamp juice and patterns, etc.
I feel the more support we can get into place the better. I think since I'm on the medication, I'm on that diet plan and with support from you and friends, I can stick to just one (at a time) for months now. I may be overly ambitious; but I feel strongly about this. I went about three months last summer with nothing and about 6 weeks in the spring/late winter with nothing. And what I've found is once I start drinking again after abstinence, it is very controlled, but it really just takes time before the pattern comes back, re: regrooving the pathways in 30-90 days. It's great we have so much awareness around it and try not to beat ourselves up too much. The awareness is big. I have improved so much in the drinking dept. over the years.
And sometimes, it's harder to abstain (it is harder) when i'm on the higher end of things. CELEBRATE LIVING!!!!
It's something about needing an outlet, an expression, a celebration of life and ourselves and how much we love and are enchanted by it.
Maybe on a regular basis doing something of an outlet for this? that is healthy. When the urge to drink it there maybe try and find another outlet. If i had a boyfriend, mine would be sex. So maybe it just transfers from one "addiction" to another.
I understand that alive energy all too well. It's just what to do with it; it almost feels like depression is a natural follow to this energy. Because for me it's often plugged back down and not allowed full expression - it's depressed. It feels like BP is so much about energy - maybe transforming that energy in life affirming creative expressions? It's so difficult b/c the energy sometimes takes on a life of its own. You know what I mean.
all for now!
Katia
This is the end of the thread.
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