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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Deneb on June 19, 2006, at 23:21:51
In reply to Question: Are you one of them?, posted by Michael83 on June 19, 2006, at 23:10:38
I think it may be true that most people like us reflect more about ourselves. We tend to see our faults more clearly and we're probably more humble.
Deneb*
Posted by Adrift on June 19, 2006, at 23:40:53
In reply to Question: Are you one of them?, posted by Michael83 on June 19, 2006, at 23:10:38
>I look at some people, and they're just blind to the world. Uptight people. Rude people. Brainless housewives lost in their own worlds tooling around town in their minivans. Testosterone overdosed jerks in pickups going about their drone-like lives. I'm sorry to say it, but I honestly look at some people and I think, "is there really a person behind those eyes?"
yes, there are people behind those eyes, dealing with their own problems. Judging from the outide in isn't always the most accurate approach, although we all do it.
Posted by Gabbi~G on June 20, 2006, at 2:08:20
In reply to Yeah, that's me. Over there in the minivan. » Michael83, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 23:17:44
no one who drives a mini-van is a person.
nope
If you want to be a person you have to have the right vehicle, or perhaps no vehicle at all.
And you can't have house-wifey hair.. oh no.
You need the "excuse me I'm suffering" haircut, or perhaps studied disheveled angst hair.
Some Visible rebels are a good example.Yes they are allowed to divide the world up into the cool and uncool, but when they themselves are judged
well.. they go home and write poetry about it.
Now of course, there may be the odd exception to that rule.
Some mini-van drivers, may well be "okay" once you get to know them, but they have to prove themselves and make you say "Hey, you're not what I thought you'd be like"
but one *cannot* make the mistake of assuming that perhaps others that they don't know personally, who drive mini-vans, and *ack* maybe have children, and buy groceries, and are wearing the wrong jeans actually are people, and have had hardships, illnesses, and ethics.Sometimes I have to stop and think
"Is there a person behind that prejudice"
Posted by Michael83 on June 20, 2006, at 7:00:14
In reply to Yeah, that's me. Over there in the minivan. » Michael83, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 23:17:44
I didn't mean to imply that EVERY suburban housewive who drives a minivan is like that, not at all.
I was just using that as an example of people I wonder the most about.
Posted by Michael83 on June 20, 2006, at 7:05:35
In reply to Re: Question: Are you one of them? » Michael83, posted by Deneb on June 19, 2006, at 23:21:51
Very true, and I think we're most in touch with reality.
I don't mean "reality" as in knowledge, but time does not fly by in one blur for us because we deal with each day one at a time. Almost like we see the world from the outside, like from a 3rd person perspective, which actually makes us more in tuned with reality than someone dealing with it in a 1st person perspective.
Not sure if anyone will get that or can relate, but it's how I view the world.
Posted by Michael83 on June 20, 2006, at 7:09:36
In reply to Au Contraire » Dinah, posted by Gabbi~G on June 20, 2006, at 2:08:20
I don't dress in any unusual way, mostly in a "casual" kakhi and polo way, and very little about me would be considered "cool" or fashionable.
But if you must know, and if it hasn't been obvious, I detest most of the world.
Honestly, I would use that as a guage to how connected someone with the world is. I don't see how you can be in tuned with reality and not detest most people. I particularly don't like people who don't stop and think. Think about everything. Most people don't think about anything.
Posted by Dinah on June 20, 2006, at 7:24:41
In reply to Au Contraire » Dinah, posted by Gabbi~G on June 20, 2006, at 2:08:20
Well, I have the angst hair at the moment. :)
I was feeling sorry for myself and decided I wasn't worthy of even the budget hair places, so I chopped it off myself, with my husband evening the job a bit.
Now I *have* to wear it in braids or ponytails.
I wasn't offended, Gabbi. Just commenting that most of us on Babble probably couldn't be identified from a distance. :)
Posted by Dinah on June 20, 2006, at 7:26:18
In reply to Re: Yeah, that's me. Over there in the minivan. » Dinah, posted by Michael83 on June 20, 2006, at 7:00:14
Well, not only am I one of them, but I know bunches of them.
If you'd like to learn more, you've but to ask.
Posted by Gabbi~G on June 20, 2006, at 8:49:54
In reply to Re: Au Contraire » Gabbi~G, posted by Dinah on June 20, 2006, at 7:24:41
Sorry, I cliced the button to you, but it wasn't directed toward you
Posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 9:24:52
In reply to Re: Au Contraire » Gabbi~G, posted by Michael83 on June 20, 2006, at 7:09:36
> But if you must know, and if it hasn't been obvious, I detest most of the world.
Good to know about you. Thanks.
> Most people don't think about anything.
I'm not sure how you can support that statement.
gg
Posted by Dinah on June 20, 2006, at 9:39:54
In reply to Re: Au Contraire, posted by Gabbi~G on June 20, 2006, at 8:49:54
I know.
Love you Gabbi.
Posted by Phillipa on June 20, 2006, at 12:15:54
In reply to Re: Au Contraire » Gabbi~G, posted by Michael83 on June 20, 2006, at 7:09:36
My biggest problem is all I do is think and compare myself to other people. Love Phillipa
Posted by llrrrpp on June 20, 2006, at 20:12:25
In reply to Re: Au Contraire » Michael83, posted by Phillipa on June 20, 2006, at 12:15:54
That category of "Us" and "Them" is so fuzzy! I was reminded of that this morning (long-winded story to follow-sorrrrrrry!)
Waiting at the bus stop, sit down next to a guy, he says good morning, I say same. He asks me if I'm on my way to school (got my backpack on). Yes. What do you study? Psychology. Oh, I've got me one of those, psychologist and a psychiatrist too; they got me on depakote (sp?) and 2 anti-depressants and sleeping pills too; (long conversation ensued, in which he calmly, normally, told me about his paranoia, panic attachs, psychotic breaks, depression, and homicidal tendencies. Oh, well that's good that you're getting treatment, I say, because a lot of people never get help, they just self-medicate, and end up with a lot of substance-abuse problems (long conversation ensued about his drug use). This guy was well-groomed, articulate, calm, and seemed quite intelligent. btw, probably low-income, because of that bus route, and because he has to go to county hospital.
[I didn't ever disclose my own medication, and struggles with depression]
Travelling on the bus, on the way to school. I see another guy, same age as my conversant. Drinking wine out of the bottle in the park at 9am. Who knows what his diagnosis is.
Who's normal anymore? who's an other? Who's got problems? Who doesn't?
Am i more similar to the wino in the park, or the "normal people" on the bus? hmm
Posted by Michael83 on June 20, 2006, at 20:23:35
In reply to Question: Are you one of them?, posted by Michael83 on June 19, 2006, at 23:10:38
If you're sensitive please do not read this (thank you.)
I wasn't meaning to put anyone down, but I was rather trying to voice why I am glad to be me, even with large issues I have (if you wish to know about, you can find a post by me and my problem on the psychology board posted on 5/18/06)
My problem is that I think too much about things that should not be thought about. I'm trying to find truth, no matter how ugly it is, and the harsh truth of this world is more than people can bare, so most ignore it, which is why I said most people don't think about things. I look at everything (yes everything) from a completely unbiased and very "3rd person" perspective, something most people cannot do.
"Those people" don't ponder the world like or other people like me do. They don't care. They just find something comforting and stick with it. That's why I look down upon them.
Most people have weak intellect. They have no will. No ideals. No nothing. They just do what comforts them, like an animal in their natural environment trying to survive.
I also have other things to say about "those people," but I'll try not to elaborate so I do not offend anyone here. Let's just say I have much higher standards than most and I just look at some people and the mistakes they constantly make and the things they do to shelter themselves and wonder "what the heck is wrong with you?"
When you understand how small most people really are (intellectually, morally, in terms of personal will, etc), then you can understand why I cannot help looking down on others.
I feel miserable because of the things I constantly obsess over, but I still would not trade it to be one of the "sheltered" people. That's what my post was about.
With that said, I think a lot of you on here are not sheltered. You think about things and that's good. I really like and admire anyone you truly truly thinks about things and I think a lot of you do.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 20:49:26
In reply to In this post I will explain my comments., posted by Michael83 on June 20, 2006, at 20:23:35
> Most people have weak intellect.
> I also have other things to say about "those people," but I'll try not to elaborate so I do not offend anyone here.
With all due respect, while you may not have intended to offend anyone, I encourage you to try to read your words through "the others'" eyes. Those "others" may have more capacity for compassion, wisdom, and critical thinking than either you or me.
That said, please do not post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civilFollow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
Regards,
deputy gg
Posted by TexasChic on June 20, 2006, at 20:53:44
In reply to In this post I will explain my comments., posted by Michael83 on June 20, 2006, at 20:23:35
Okay, this is what I almost posted eariler, but I refrained because of fear of being misunderstood. So try to keep in mind I'm not trying to say anything negative in any way. Wow, I'm making this sound much worse than it usually is. I just like to be very careful with posting.
---------------------
Sounds like you're talking about the shallow, materialistic type of person compared to the type who are deeper and try to think of others. Of course, to assume people fall into either catagory based on appearances alone would be presumptuous, but I get what you were trying to say. I guess its hard to tell when someone is generalizing to make a point and when they literally believe EVERY person in the category is that way. Like when I say, "This ALWAYS happens to me!" Do I mean it really always happens, or am I exagerating to make the point that it happens alot? (That may not be the most apt example, but it was the only thing I could think of to make my point).
Minivan driving soccer moms have a certain reputation, but to assume EVERY minivan driving soccer mom is the same would be ridiculous. Its like the 'dumb blonde' thing I have to put up with. If someone literally believed hair color affected intelligence, well, I think that person's intelligence would be more questionable than the blonde's.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, people will use 'stereotypes' (for lack of a better word) to make a point, figuring most people know they don't REALLY mean everyone in that category is that way. But when in this environment (chatroom), there is a much higher possibility for it to be misconstrued. So I guess you have to try to proof posts thinking, 'could this be taken literally?'
I hope this makes sense.
-T
Posted by TexasChic on June 20, 2006, at 21:02:27
In reply to Please be civil » Michael83, posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 20:49:26
> Most people have weak intellect.
Could he have said 'alot of people'? I don't want to go to admin with this simple question, I'm just kind of asking in general to try to understand. If I'm in the wrong, feel free to let me know.
I just don't see how this is different from saying 'people suck', which I believe I've said before. Maybe I just got off lucky.
Thanks!
-T
Posted by Michael83 on June 20, 2006, at 22:30:07
In reply to Please be civil » Michael83, posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 20:49:26
I didn't mean to offend, in fact I went out of my to try not to offend because I know some people on this forum may be easily triggered or hurt by certain comments. I know this all too well, at certain times I can be triggered into intense fear by the simplest of things. But I posted a "caution" message at the top of the post if it's any consolation. I really really din't want to make anyone feel bad.
And in all honesty, I only said about 1% of what I could have said about "most people."
But on the other hand, "most people" aren't very considerate to me, especially when it comes my opinions, which I try not to voice.
I right off the bat get the "Ohhhhh, what do you think you're better than 'most people'?!?!?" If I do, what's wrong with that? Honestly, what logically thinking, self respecting person looks at the world and goes around thinking they're "better than no one"? Who can look at this cruel and ignorant world and not feel a bit "better than most"?
I don't shove it in people's face, and I try to tolerate even the most intolerable people. In real life I try to keep my feelings towards others to myself and behave humbly around others. But I was just venting bottled up thoughts on this board, it's not a reflection of things I go around saying to just anyone. Just venting frustrations.
In my opinion, if I'm "so great" I should at least have the courtesy to be reasonable and humble to most. A rude arrogant person isn't really "that great" in my opinion.
I am sorry if I broke the rules of the board, I will be more careful next time.
Posted by Michael83 on June 20, 2006, at 23:02:35
In reply to Re: Please be civil » TexasChic, posted by TexasChic on June 20, 2006, at 22:18:36
>>>>I kind of understand why you PBC'd Michael, like I said, its very easy to misconstrue in this environment. I however, read it as his way of trying to say that we, people dealing with 'mental illness' (I sure would like another term for that), are not beneath others. In fact, our introspective, obsessive nature may even make us more aware of other people's feelings.
You got it EXACTLY! That's exactly what I was trying to say. People like us reflect. Life can blur by fast for people without problems.Problems slow life down a bit and cause people to take a step back to "think things over."
Meanwhile, the masses, their lives are a blur of "blissful ignorance" and chasing the useless things of life.
Don't know why, but it reminds me of something Mark Twain wrote from "Adam's Diary."
"I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her. At first I thought she talked too much; but now I should be sorry to have that voice fall silent and pass out of my life. Blessed be the chestnut that brought us near together and taught me to know the goodness of her heart and the sweetness of her spirit!"
Twain wrote (it was a rewritten 1st person account of the Adam and Eve story) this as a reference to having an accurate general knowledge of the world (living outside the Garden), as opposed to living in the Garden (living in ignorance).
The "chestnut" is what the serpent referred to the forbidden apple as in the story, which represents I guess for me (or anyone else) as the problems (of thinking and searching for truth) which open my eyes to the world. Eve herself, the person who first ate the apple, would also represent part of the "problems," which would turn out to actually be a wonderful gift.
The first time I read that part of Twain's story was in August of 2002, when I was at my worst and in the "deconverting process." (I was basically having a nonstop, 24/7, 3 week long panic attack. I would go to bed trembling and wake up trembling .) I remember tears coming down my eyes right after I read that paragraph. To me, someone searching for self esteem to trust my own logic and search for truth, it was the most beautiful thing anyone had ever written. I remember the moment exactly. It was breath taking when the whole intention of the story came together.
(Sorry I had to vent that to someone.)
THAT'S what I mean.
Thank you for understanding my good intended post. =D I was just trying to bring those with problems up, not down.
Posted by AuntieMel on June 21, 2006, at 11:59:42
In reply to In this post I will explain my comments., posted by Michael83 on June 20, 2006, at 20:23:35
Please keep reading 'til the end.
I am (was?) one of those soccer moms. I even had a mini-van until it died (and I couldn't get another one, cause they don't make them with standard transmissions anymore.)
I have a pretty nice house in a very nice neighborhood.
keep reading......
I drove my van *full* of girls (only one was my kid) to soccer practices and games. Why? Two reasons - their parants didn't want to, or couldn't, but more important I found out a *lot* about what the girls were up to just by driving.
Why do I have a nice house in that neighborhood? My old house was almost paid for, but the schools were going down so I moved to get to a better school district.
keep reading......
BUT I *do* understand what you are talking about. A lot of my neighbors are pretty shallow. One time I participated in hosting a (big formal) party for my daughter's class. During the decorating, all the other moms talked about was who lived in which "mansion" and what so-and-so just got.
I couldn't get out of there quick enough.
{now I drive an SUV - it's a couple of years old: the last year they made them in with a standard transmission}
Posted by Tamar on June 21, 2006, at 16:08:42
In reply to In this post I will explain my comments., posted by Michael83 on June 20, 2006, at 20:23:35
If you haven't read Nietzsche's 'The Genealogy of Morals' I think you might find it quite interesting. Alternatively, 'Thus Spoke Zarathustra'.
Tamar
Posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2006, at 17:03:21
In reply to Re: Please be civil » gardenergirl, posted by Michael83 on June 20, 2006, at 22:30:07
> I didn't mean to offend, in fact I went out of my to try not to offend because I know some people on this forum may be easily triggered or hurt by certain comments.
I believe you. However, not meaning to and even posting a caution that some may be offended does not negate the rules.
>
> And in all honesty, I only said about 1% of what I could have said about "most people."It may be a good thing that you reserved the remainder.
>
> But on the other hand, "most people" aren't very considerate to me, especially when it comes my opinions, which I try not to voice.As Dr. Bob often says, "Two wrongs do not make a right." The civility rules apply even if one feels that others were not civil in return.
>
> I right off the bat get the "Ohhhhh, what do you think you're better than 'most people'?!?!?" If I do, what's wrong with that?There is no problem with thinking you are better than anyone else right up to the point of putting down others. I believe our individual rights extend only as far as others' begin.
>But I was just venting bottled up thoughts on this board, it's not a reflection of things I go around saying to just anyone. Just venting frustrations.
Venting can be a useful thing to do, but we do not have the freedom to say whatever we wish here.
>
>
> I am sorry if I broke the rules of the board, I will be more careful next time.Thank you. Please feel free to ask a deputy for feedback before posting if you are unsure of something. Some posters also use a "civility buddy" for guidance.
Take care,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2006, at 17:59:33
In reply to Re: Please be civil » TexasChic, posted by Michael83 on June 20, 2006, at 23:02:35
>
> Meanwhile, the masses, their lives are a blur of "blissful ignorance" and chasing the useless things of life.Out of sensitivity to the masses, who may not after all be chasing "useless things", would you please rephrase the above statement?
Feel free to consult the FAQ http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil and/or to email or babblemail a deputy, Dr. Bob or another poster for assistance.
Thanks,
deputy gg
Posted by TexasChic on June 21, 2006, at 18:03:15
In reply to Not PBCing you :) » TexasChic, posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2006, at 17:14:00
> I guess I'm just troubled, because I can't see how anyone can really know these things about others. They're inferences at best. No one really knows what's in another's heart, mind, or soul.
Too true.
> Surely no one would get offended because they consider themselves one of the uptight, rude, brainless people?
> They might feel offended if they thought they were being labelled as such. Many labels have derogatory or otherwise critical views embedded in them. That doesn't make the labels themselves wrong, but applying them to another group can lead that group to feel put down or offended. And even "uptight, brainless, rude" people, whoever they might be have feelings, don't they? I ask again, if you thought you were being labelled as such, how would you feel?I didn't see it as labeling as much as grumbling about the rude people in the world. But since you read it otherwise, I guess that means it must of been ambiguous, which we want to avoid.
> Could this possibly be one of those 'reword situations' to let the poster know his comments might be misunderstood?
> I suppose it could be, but actually Dr. Bob considers a "please rephrase" as more serious than a PBC, since it requires an action on the poster's part.Wow, I didn't know that. Shows how much I know.
> I appreciate your thoughts.
I appreciate being appreciated. :-)
I was very leery about posting this last night, I'm a big time confrontation avoider. But I felt like I was the only one getting what Michael was trying to say, so I thought I should speak up.
-T
Posted by Declan on June 21, 2006, at 18:03:22
In reply to Echoes of Nietzsche? » Michael83, posted by Tamar on June 21, 2006, at 16:08:42
Not that I know anything much about him, apart from having read Ecce Homo, which was astonishing and brilliant and crazy. But I would *like* to know more about him. He keeps cropping up...in the idea that Freud is domesticated Nietzche with something (what?) left out.
In the 1880s he said "He who overthrows us is strong; he who raises us up is divine; he who heightens our perceptions is profound."
(Where's that from?)
Prophets,of whatever sort, are interesting.And then also this about him...'Then his tone became that of a solitary man who knows he is no longer being heard: more strident, more virulent, more contemptuous. Balanced essays were replaced by aphorisms, thrown out like orders--a medium he borrowed from the French writers of the C18. At the end madness revealed itself, in the biting cleverness of his utterences, as in the precision with which they were made.'
Umm, I tried Thus Spake Zarathustra. Why couldn't I finish it?
Declan
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