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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 18:24:35
In reply to Re: Any ethicists out there?, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 18:24:08
Posted by gardenergirl on December 12, 2004, at 18:38:50
In reply to Re: Any ethicists out there? » Dinah, posted by TofuEmmy on December 12, 2004, at 18:10:23
Oh Dinah, what a difficult situation.
I was struck by a couple of things in your original post. First, it sounds like they ARE treating the pneumonia, although perhaps not as aggressively as they might in the hospital. In his condition, I have to think it would be impossible to know if more aggressive treatment would actually make a difference or not. So it doesn't feel to me as if treatment were being withheld in order to speed his death. Perhaps I am assuming too much, however.
I know that one thing Hospice does in order to increase comfort and quality of life in the end is to avoid constant back and forths to the hospital. I've seen lots of older adults in nursing homes, who, when they deteriorate, can be back and forth so much it makes your head spin. All that transporting and changing caregivers, chaos, and so on seems like it would be disturbing on some level. So that may be another reason they are treating the pneumonia as they are...to avoid beginning a cycle of back and forths.
Regarding causality, I can certainly understand the distress that thinking along those lines would bring. And I think most of us would worry about second-guessing and whether we made the right choice or not. But there is another factor or two that is at play. Regardless of the decision, it's also up to your dad's body and spirit to some extent. And perhaps God. Or fate, or whatever you believe. I guess I'm just saying there's more at play in the outcome than any one decision.
Okay, mostly I just want to be with you in spirit. I'll be thinking of you in the coming days, and I hope you know you are valued here and I'm sure IRL. I know you will not make a capricious decision and that will be hard for you. Just know that we care.
'K?
((((((dinah))))))
gg
Posted by TofuEmmy on December 12, 2004, at 18:40:54
In reply to Re: Any ethicists out there?, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 18:24:08
If you haven't already, please tell the social worker about this and how it makes you suspect of relying on their judgement. They obviously need to be reminded of the importance of their place in your life, and in your dad's life.
em
Posted by pegasus on December 12, 2004, at 18:44:26
In reply to Re: Any ethicists out there? » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 16:54:16
>The fact that I meant well, or what my intentions were don't matter.
Oh, Dinah, yes they do! They matter the most! Whatever you decide, and whatever ends up happening, it seems clear that you'll be trying to make the decision that would be best for your dad. If he dies earlier, or suffers more, it's not because you made a decision for that to happen. You are making decisions that you hope will be best for his continuing life (at least as far as he'd want to) and for limiting his suffering. Whatever *actually* happens, if the outcome is worse than you want, it's not because of your negligence. It's just because you made the best choice you could figure out, and then things you couldn't forsee happened. It's totally unfair to call yourself a murderer or torturer. You are so clearly trying not to be either of those things. If he dies or suffers it will *not* be your fault. It will be desipite your best efforts.
(((Dinah)))
pegasus
Posted by anastasia56 on December 12, 2004, at 20:02:39
In reply to Re: Any ethicists out there? » Dinah, posted by pegasus on December 12, 2004, at 18:44:26
All the posts you have received have been so incredibly supportive.
When the time came for my father and then my grandmother to pass on they each labored long and hard during the process. With each one, at the end all I could think was that I was so grateful they were finally done with the difficult task of dying and could be at peace.
When it is more painful for your father to continue living than it is for him to die you will have no regrets about any decisions you have made.
anastasia
Posted by fallsfall on December 12, 2004, at 20:46:37
In reply to Any ethicists out there?, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 14:02:32
I have no words of wisdom for you. But I do have compassion. And hugs - lots of hugs if they help.
((((((((((Dinah))))))))))
You love your dad a great deal. That has been so clear here on the board. And he loves you - remember that he told you so recently.
I think that this is one of those decisions where you need to let your heart guide you rather than your head. The decision has too many unknowns, and it is not possible to weigh the options - the options are not comparable. Can you accept that there *is* no way to "logically" make this decision? And let your heart make it? Can you sit with him and hold his hand and let his presence let you know what to do? You can make the decision together (even if he doesn't communicate conventionally with you). He trusts you. Now you need to trust you.
(((((Dinah)))))
Posted by All Done on December 13, 2004, at 3:44:04
In reply to Re: Any ethicists out there?, posted by anastasia56 on December 12, 2004, at 20:02:39
(((Dinah))),
I started to write a long post, but I realized it might be triggering and I'm not sure how much you want to hear right now. Just know that my family and I went through circumstances very similar to yours when my father passed away. If you want to talk to me about it, e-mail me. If it would be too difficult, please know that I'm praying for and thinking of you. It is so hard.
Please take care,
Laurie
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2004, at 12:40:53
In reply to Any ethicists out there?, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 14:02:32
I'm heading there now and may not be back until after it's over, unless he rallies. She says it could be hours or days.
I've hired a night nurse without getting my mother's ok. Even if she wants to, she shouldn't have to do the physical stuff at this stage.
I guess I decided to trust hospice. I talked to my boss, and my cousin, and of course you guys. I'm having my mother call their regular doctor to see what he thinks. But then I guess I'll trust them.
I wish I had my Daddy to talk this sort of thing over with.
Posted by gardenergirl on December 13, 2004, at 12:49:26
In reply to Nurse says end is near, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2004, at 12:40:53
Posted by All Done on December 13, 2004, at 13:28:41
In reply to Nurse says end is near, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2004, at 12:40:53
(((((Dinah))))),
I am praying for you, your father, and your family.
We will be here for you when you need us.
Laurie
Posted by TofuEmmy on December 13, 2004, at 15:51:00
In reply to Nurse says end is near, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2004, at 12:40:53
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20041120/msgs/428974.html
There is a link on the Faith board too for prayers and hugs.
emmy
Posted by fallsfall on December 13, 2004, at 16:53:54
In reply to Re: Praying for you and your family, posted by TofuEmmy on December 13, 2004, at 15:51:00
((((((((((Dinah & Dinah's Daddy))))))))))
Posted by pegasus on December 13, 2004, at 17:07:25
In reply to Any ethicists out there?, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 14:02:32
Dinah,
You'll be in my thoughts and prayers during the next few days. I wish you much strength, and much support.
(((Dinah)))
pegasus
Posted by annierose on December 13, 2004, at 22:07:50
In reply to Nurse says end is near, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2004, at 12:40:53
Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 13, 2004, at 22:17:48
In reply to Thinking of you » Dinah, posted by pegasus on December 13, 2004, at 17:07:25
Dinah know youre in my prayers as well as your family and loved ones :(
Posted by Angel Girl on December 15, 2004, at 4:01:12
In reply to I have been there ,,,,,,, posted by Fallen4MyT on December 13, 2004, at 22:17:48
Dinah, I'm so sorry that you are agonizing over this decision. It is not an easy one to make. I've been in your position with my own father years ago. With tears in my eyes, I pray that God gives you strength and peace. My heart and prayers go out to you and yours.
{{{{{{{{{{{{Dinah}}}}}}}}}}}
Angel Girl
Posted by Dinah on December 15, 2004, at 7:56:02
In reply to Nurse says end is near, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2004, at 12:40:53
My father died last night. In the end there were no choices to be made. He was in a coma when I got there, neurological impairment was obvious, and the only ways to prolong his life would have definitely violated his wishes.
It was as comfortable a way to go as you can have. At home with me and mother there most of the time. I had left to get a few hours sleep after having only slept 45 minutes the night before. They called me around 11 pm, but I didn't get back in time.
He wasn't in any pain or discomfort until late, and two half doses of morphine cleared that up. He never needed anymore.
Things degenerated into ugliness between my mother and I, but she apparently actually has forgiven me for it. She said we were both under stress and our ideas about what is best are different. In forgiveness she beats me hands down. But considering, we did ok together. The funeral now, I don't know...
I did have to do some of the care stuff because we couldn't find a nurse for Monday night. I'm so happy one was there last night. But my phobia wasn't involved.
I'm ok. I think that at some point, I'm not going to be ok. But I'm ok right now.
Posted by All Done on December 15, 2004, at 9:05:40
In reply to Thanks everyone., posted by Dinah on December 15, 2004, at 7:56:02
Your father is at peace, now, Dinah. I'm so sorry that it means suffering and pain for you, but with a lot of prayer and support, I know you will be okay.
You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers during your time of sorrow.
With deepest sympathy,
Laurie
Posted by fallsfall on December 15, 2004, at 9:45:17
In reply to Re: (((((Dinah))))), posted by All Done on December 15, 2004, at 9:05:40
Dinah,
My heart goes out to you because I have a sense of how much you loved your Daddy, and how much you will miss him.
I think that you handled this whole (long) situation wonderfully. The issue with your mother will become history. Both of you loved your father in your own ways.
(((((Dinah)))))
Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
Falls.
Posted by pegasus on December 15, 2004, at 10:26:50
In reply to Thanks everyone., posted by Dinah on December 15, 2004, at 7:56:02
Dinah, I'm so sorry for the loss of your beloved Daddy. I'll be praying for your dad and for you and your mom. I'm glad he didn't suffer much, and that you didn't have to make agonizing decisions.
(((Dinah)))
pegasus
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 15, 2004, at 10:47:20
In reply to Thanks everyone., posted by Dinah on December 15, 2004, at 7:56:02
Please accept my condolences. I'm both saddened by your loss, and relieved that your mutual struggle ended without undue discomfort.
{{{{{{{{{Dinah}}}}}}}}}}
Posted by gardenergirl on December 15, 2004, at 11:35:04
In reply to Re: Thanks everyone. » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on December 15, 2004, at 10:47:20
Dinah,
Thanks for letting us know. Please know you are your family are in my prayers now and in the days to come.GG
Posted by antigua on December 15, 2004, at 12:30:49
In reply to Re: Praying for you and your family, posted by TofuEmmy on December 13, 2004, at 15:51:00
Posted by vwoolf on December 15, 2004, at 13:01:25
In reply to Re: Thanks everyone., posted by gardenergirl on December 15, 2004, at 11:35:04
Oh Dinah, I'm so sorry. You will be in my thoughts over the next few days.
A warm hug.
Vwoolf
Posted by Tabitha on December 15, 2004, at 14:56:02
In reply to Thanks everyone., posted by Dinah on December 15, 2004, at 7:56:02
I'm so sorry for your loss. (((((Dinah)))))
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