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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Jai Narayan on November 18, 2004, at 14:38:49
In reply to Re: is it... » Jai Narayan, posted by Gabbix2 on November 18, 2004, at 14:19:47
Do not try and to bend the spoon
that's impossible.
instead only try to realize the truthTHERE IS NO SPOON
then you will see it's not the spoon that bends,
it is only yourselfJai
Posted by Jai Narayan on November 18, 2004, at 14:40:07
In reply to Re: is it... » Jai Narayan, posted by Gabbix2 on November 18, 2004, at 14:19:47
welcome.
I haven't seen you around for a while.
sometimes it get lonely in PB without you.
Jai
Posted by alexandra_k on November 18, 2004, at 15:11:51
In reply to What is TRUTH?, posted by Jai Narayan on November 18, 2004, at 12:44:04
Jai, oh Jai, you need to study philosophy :-)
'What is beauty' is a topic in aesthetics.
'What is truth' is a topic in epistemology (theory of knowledge).
Then there is reality, justice, morality, mind, meaning, god, etc etc.There would seem to be different kinds of truths.
eg. 2+2=4 (which is a necessary truth given the meaning of the terms)
'killing someone is worse than lying to them' which is a moral truth.
'I am now sitting in front of a computer'.There are three main theories of truth:
The CORRESPONDANCE THEORY where truth is a correspondance relation between a statement and a state of affairs (or maybe a fact). So, for example, 'I am now sitting in front of a computer' is true if and only if it is a fact that I am now sitting in front of my computer.
Another way of saying this is that 'snow is white' is true if and only if snow is white. (I shudder to think how much research finding went into that one!) That is a kind of simpler version of the correspondance theory of truth that is known as the disquotational theory of truth.
Then there is the COHERENCE THEORY OF TRUTH where what is true is true because it coheres with (most plausibly) some idealised system of non-contradictory beliefs.
And there is the PRAGMATIC THEORY OF TRUTH where what is true is what it is useful for us to believe is true. Sometimes they say that it is the 'ultimate opinion fated to be agreed upon by all' and bring in the notion of a final science as the most useful science.
It seems to me that the different theories handle different kinds of truths best. The correspondance theory of truth works best for the truth of claims about states of affairs in the world (such as scientific truths). It can't handle moral truths - unless there are moral facts which is controversial to say the least.
Any way, that is probably more information than you wanted or needed...
Posted by Shortelise on November 18, 2004, at 15:19:28
In reply to What is TRUTH?, posted by Jai Narayan on November 18, 2004, at 12:44:04
Truth is subjective.
Posted by sunny10 on November 18, 2004, at 15:21:49
In reply to Re: What is TRUTH?, posted by Shortelise on November 18, 2004, at 15:19:28
> Truth is subjective.
>
>
And THAT'S the truth !!!And, BTW, what is "normal"?
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 18, 2004, at 15:25:15
In reply to Gabbix2, posted by Jai Narayan on November 18, 2004, at 14:40:07
> welcome.
> I haven't seen you around for a while.
> sometimes it get lonely in PB without you.
> JaiThank you! it's been a horrible month. I wonder about my partner in crime K.K too? I think about her every time my hair looks fabulous.
Thats the truth!
Posted by alexandra_k on November 18, 2004, at 15:40:38
In reply to Re: What is TRUTH?, posted by Shortelise on November 18, 2004, at 15:19:28
Do you mean truth is subjective for you???
What about 'there are 1,000 registered posting names at babble right NOW (and then we specify a particular time)'. Don't you think there might be an objective fact that makes that statement true or false, regardless of whether we think it is true or false?
Posted by alexandra_k on November 18, 2004, at 15:41:30
In reply to Re: What is TRUTH? » Shortelise, posted by alexandra_k on November 18, 2004, at 15:40:38
How about: some truths are subjective.
Posted by Shortelise on November 18, 2004, at 18:02:28
In reply to Re: What is TRUTH? » Shortelise, posted by alexandra_k on November 18, 2004, at 15:40:38
> Do you mean truth is subjective for you???
I think it is subjective for each of us. I guess this only for philosophical truths, though.
I'm not very good at this sort of discussion. There are different kinds of truth, but the truth that most concerns me is the sort that affects my heart. And that is subjective.
If I say I love my husband, and insist it is true, than you will ask what love is, and so it comes to what love is to me, and if accordning to that truth, that I love my husband or not is true or false.
Truth is a scary thing. People do bad things in the name of truth, and it's hard to argue when some truths are so very different than others.
Try to sort out historical fact - that is, truths. It's impossible. Even eye witnesses disagree, and history is all about human percetion - what we have perceived at points in history.
But again, I can't really discuss any of this intelligently. I don't have the mind for it. I can fix your toaster, I can make you a dress, I can get more in the trunk of a car than anyone else I know. I can stop a baby from crying. I can organize a party, make the food, serve it, make sure there are no wall flowers feeling unloved, and leave breakfast in the fridge for morning. And apparently I'm a good kisser. But logic, well, I think all red trucks are fire engines.
Love,
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on November 18, 2004, at 18:03:46
In reply to Re: What is TRUTH? » Shortelise, posted by sunny10 on November 18, 2004, at 15:21:49
> > Truth is subjective.
> >
> >
> And THAT'S the truth !!!
>
> And, BTW, what is "normal"?
>Now, that's not fair. Here my poor little mind is stuck trying to figure out what truth is, and you ask for normal?
Ok, let's see... normal. I guess it's a mathematical equation.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on November 18, 2004, at 18:04:37
In reply to Re: What is TRUTH?, posted by Shortelise on November 18, 2004, at 18:03:46
Posted by alexandra_k on November 18, 2004, at 18:35:49
In reply to Re: What is TRUTH? » alexandra_k, posted by Shortelise on November 18, 2004, at 18:02:28
> the truth that most concerns me is the sort that affects my heart. And that is subjective.
If I say I love my husband, and insist it is true, than you will ask what love is, and so it comes to what love is to me, and if accordning to that truth, that I love my husband or not is true or false.Sure, I think I agree with you there.
> Try to sort out historical fact - that is, truths. It's impossible. Even eye witnesses disagree, and history is all about human percetion - what we have perceived at points in history.
Yes, though there are objective facts of the matter that may be inaccessible to us as mere finite human beings.
> But again, I can't really discuss any of this intelligently.I think you are discussing this pretty intelligently.
>I can fix your toaster, I can make you a dress, I can get more in the trunk of a car than anyone else I know. I can stop a baby from crying. I can organize a party, make the food, serve it, and leave breakfast in the fridge for morning.
I can't do any of that stuff.
I am sorry, I don't mean to make you feel like you can't discuss this kind of stuff intelligently. I reckon you are and you can.The only difference is that I have done courses on this stuff where we think about what people have written, and we look at what they have said critically trying to find counter-examples to refute their claims. That is something that anybody could do if they really wanted to.
Peoples pretheorietical intuitions are interesting to me. So many philosophers write on what the 'common man' believes but to the best of my knowledge they have never done a survey.
I respect your thoughts and opinions.
But I do tend to kill these kinds of discussions. I am sorry.
Posted by Jai Narayan on November 18, 2004, at 18:45:26
In reply to Re: Gabbix2 » Jai Narayan, posted by Gabbix2 on November 18, 2004, at 15:25:15
I think KK is out having fun somewhere.
I saw a post from her on the newbie site and it was a riot.
glad to hear your hair looks fab.
jai
Posted by Jai Narayan on November 18, 2004, at 18:51:20
In reply to Re: What is TRUTH? » alexandra_k, posted by Shortelise on November 18, 2004, at 18:02:28
> But again, I can't really discuss any of this intelligently. I don't have the mind for it. I can fix your toaster, I can make you a dress, I can get more in the trunk of a car than anyone else I know. I can stop a baby from crying. I can organize a party, make the food, serve it, make sure there are no wall flowers feeling unloved, and leave breakfast in the fridge for morning. And apparently I'm a good kisser. But logic, well, I think all red trucks are fire engines.
**well that's a lot of great stuff about truth.
It warmed my heart and that's the truth!
Jai
Posted by Shortelise on November 18, 2004, at 21:11:36
In reply to Re: What is TRUTH? » Shortelise, posted by alexandra_k on November 18, 2004, at 18:35:49
This is all very interesting. And I don't feel you are killing anything, so please no sorrow on my account, unless you really have to!
I just mean my smarts seem to lie elsewhere. I'm not stupid, I'm just not goood at this sort of thing.
Yes, it the refuting of everything and everything another says that drives me crazy, because of what you term "pretheorhetical intuitions". I LOVE that! It's how I am, and it's so easy to refute. It's how I fix the toaster and know where to find wild strawberries in the woods.
Thanks Alex k. Thanks for caring about not making me feel badly about the sort of intelligence I have.
ShortE
Posted by Cass on November 18, 2004, at 23:48:07
In reply to What is TRUTH?, posted by Jai Narayan on November 18, 2004, at 12:44:04
I believe that Truth, in the profound sense, isn't necesarily knowledge, rather it's an experience. The Truth is experiencing oneness with God.
The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced.
- Aart Van Der Leeuw
Posted by sunny10 on November 19, 2004, at 9:04:50
In reply to Re: What is TRUTH?, posted by Shortelise on November 18, 2004, at 18:03:46
you mean like 1+1=2? If you're talking human sex organs, they actually = 3 or more....
Posted by AuntieMel on November 19, 2004, at 12:05:35
In reply to Re: What is TRUTH? » Jai Narayan, posted by alexandra_k on November 18, 2004, at 15:11:51
Well, to me 1+2=2 is a statement of fact, not a truth.
A TRUTH is a much larger thing, encompassing fact, experience and perception. A true TRUTH is not as subjective as people would like to think.
Unfortunately, I am way to steeped in fact (science) to see many "truths."
Posted by lil' jimi on November 19, 2004, at 12:41:30
In reply to What is TRUTH?, posted by Jai Narayan on November 18, 2004, at 12:44:04
suffering exists
Posted by AuntieMel on November 19, 2004, at 13:39:23
In reply to Re: What is TRUTH?, posted by lil' jimi on November 19, 2004, at 12:41:30
Posted by lil' jimi on November 19, 2004, at 16:29:29
In reply to YaHoooooooooooooo. Jimi's back!!!!!! (nm), posted by AuntieMel on November 19, 2004, at 13:39:23
Posted by AuntieMel on November 19, 2004, at 16:57:01
In reply to xxx (nm) » AuntieMel, posted by lil' jimi on November 19, 2004, at 16:29:29
Posted by alexandra_k on November 19, 2004, at 18:45:08
In reply to Re: What is TRUTH? » alexandra_k, posted by Shortelise on November 18, 2004, at 21:11:36
> Yes, it the refuting of everything and everything another says that drives me crazy.
>It's how I am, and it's so easy to refute.
I am sorry. Sometimes analytic philosophy does seem to be a negative enterprise. It is much easier to find fault in what another says than to advance a plausible thesis of ones own. I wasn't trying to show that what you said was wrong, however, just that there are many different sorts of things that we want to regard as 'true' and so to show that your theory applies to certain kinds of truths rather than truth in general.
I am just trying to advance the search for the nature of truth...
But then we cannot come up with better theories unless we recognise the inadequacies in the current ones. Thats not just a comment on what you have said, thats a comment on what EVERYONE in the whole history of philosophy has said.
But then sometimes it is nice to just write what you think / feel without having to worry about annoying gadflies such as myself...
Don't underestimate practical abilities, and even practical rationality (both of which I sorely lack). And don't underestimate your ability to do anything you put your mind to either! I do not have many practical skills - but then that is because I do not work to gain them because it is not high on my list of priorities. Maybe you find this kind of stuff interesting to think about sometimes, but in terms of working to develop skills of analytic thinking, well, you have better things to do with your time.
I read what you have to say with much interest.
No one path is better than the other.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 19, 2004, at 18:53:56
In reply to Re: What is TRUTH? » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on November 19, 2004, at 12:05:35
> Well, to me 1+2=2 is a statement of fact, not a truth.
Okay, how about this.
1+1=2 and 1+1=3. Don't we want to say that the first is true, and the second is false? Then the question becomes 'in virtue of what is the first propositon true, and the second false?'. We could say that the first is true because it refers to (picks out or points towards) a fact. The second is false because it fails to pick out or refer to a fact (as there are no false facts). So facts are 'truth makers'; they are what make propositions true, or false if there is no relevant fact.> A TRUTH is a much larger thing, encompassing fact, experience and perception. A true TRUTH is not as subjective as people would like to think.
There can be propositions about facts, experiences, and perceptions e.g.,
'I am now sitting in front of a computer'.
'I feel hot'.
'I see a red patch'.I guess that in analytic philosophy it is propositions (and beliefs) that are candidates for truth and falsity. But maybe that misses the point of what you are getting at?
Posted by lil' jimi on November 20, 2004, at 11:50:57
In reply to Re: xxx as in kissy kissy (not blue) I hope (nm) » lil' jimi, posted by AuntieMel on November 19, 2004, at 16:57:01
This is the end of the thread.
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