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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Emme on May 11, 2004, at 11:36:29
Okay, so I was nice and went to see my mother for Mother's Day.
She talked about how a friend was frustrated because a mentally ill (don't know details) woman was trying to pester the friend into doing something for her. Mom finished up by saying "So you see, people who are mentally disturbed insist on having their own way." Guess that would include large portions of the human population, huh? :)
This from a woman with a history of lots of panic attacks, chronic anxiety and, I think, chronic depression. Thank god she doesn't know about my mood disorder or that I take medication.
Mom's comments aside, I'm going through one of my phases where I'm having a hard time with stigma. Growing up, I absorbed the idea that people who were referred to as "mentally disturbed" were really abnormal, weird people who were incapable of normal human relationships. People you just don't want to be around. People who "need help". "Them"
I don't know why, but at the moment I'm having a tough time with the concept of myself as having a mental illness. I go through phases of accepting it as I would any other illness, and phases of really feeling defective. I'm having a hard time saying "mood disorder" or "depression". I mean I know tons of people are walking around with depression, anxiety, you name it - half my friends are card-carrying members of the club. People here are cool. So why am I feeling so ashamed right now? Maybe I'm just maxxed out on it.
Can anyone relate?
Emme
Posted by TexasChic on May 11, 2004, at 11:58:13
In reply to priceless quote from parent, posted by Emme on May 11, 2004, at 11:36:29
B2chica and I were discussing this very thing a few threads up called 'What is it about Mondays'. It starts at about the third to the last message. We basically discussed how our problems are not mental 'illnesses', but just being mentally *different*. I feel some people are just more in tune to things than others. This can be overwhelming at times, but it also means they're more sympathetic to others and the plight of the world around them. If being 'normal' means being apathetic, then I'd rather 'ab'normal. Its all in how you perceive things. Don't let your mother's misconceptions bring you down. Just keep in mind that just because she's your mother doesn't mean she's right.
Posted by finelinebob on May 11, 2004, at 12:22:59
In reply to priceless quote from parent, posted by Emme on May 11, 2004, at 11:36:29
> "So you see, people who are mentally disturbed insist on having their own way." Guess that would include large portions of the human population, huh? :)
Hmm ... so does that mean that people who insist on having their own way are mentally disturbed?
I'm kinda militant about not being "ill". It makes me think of that line from the Officer Krupke song in West Side Story ... "juvenille deliquiency is merely a social disease!" The way most people think, "mental illness" might as well be a social disease, too. You're "dirty" if you have one, and you probably got it doing something a "good" person wouldn't have done so it's your own fault.
Don't know if its still there, but at 72nd and Broadway in NYC there was this huge billboard (well, painted side of a building) that said, "Depression is a fault in chemistry, not in character." I try to keep that in mind as well.
flb
Posted by partlycloudy on May 11, 2004, at 12:43:17
In reply to priceless quote from parent, posted by Emme on May 11, 2004, at 11:36:29
Aren't mothers PRECIOUS?? My mom just thinks I am sad about something she doesn't understand, and she doesn't know how to make it better. But she feels plenty guilty. I tend not to call her unless I feel safely in the middle, mood wise.
I mostly think of myself as ill, particularly when I have weeks of mood swings. At least I am more familiar with them so I try not to be too outrageous whilst manic (I have gotten myself fired from several job quite spectacularly). And the lows, well, they are very hard to get through only because you can't imagine you'll ever feel better. I am still coming to terms with having to take so many different pills. My p-doc says that's only because they haven't invented the one that has all the stuff I need in it. Duh. Last weekend I sat watching a beautiful sunset with my husband, and started to cry about how I don't think I'll ever feel "well" again. I am just very aware of whether this is a good or a bad day. The bad ones I dread but expect. The good ones I find hard to trust.
Posted by Racer on May 11, 2004, at 13:36:14
In reply to priceless quote from parent, posted by Emme on May 11, 2004, at 11:36:29
;-D
I just got back from a medical appointment, where I had to include talking about the depression, the medications, etc. It was hard as hell. I was defensive, too: "During that depressive episode, I still managed to teach 8 to 12 classes per week, and while people may have known something was wrong, I don't think they knew how bad it was -- and my students still learned their stuff!" See, even though I'm Mentally Ill, I could still do what I'm supposed to do.
It is hard, and I'll see your parental tact with another: my mother is concerned with my weight, right? So, we're out one day looking at yarn, and she says in her whisper (heard in the next time zone), "That woman shouldn't be knitting, she should be at the gym." Says that sort of thing about 90% of the women we saw in our quest for The Perfect Yarn. Then, at lunch that day, she starts into a diatribe about how she's obviously never had a problem like that with self-indulgence and laziness, because she's never had a weight problem! Hello? Mom? On *this* planet, a day of those messages could almost be predicted to confirm my weight problems, you know? Maybe it's hearing those things all these years that leads to things that worry you about me, like eating one quarter of what's on my plate for lunch, instead of eating a normal amount? Maybe it wouldn't feel so much like the end of the world to gain a pound or two -- or even thirty -- if I didn't know that eating when you're hungry is the definition of self-indulgence and laziness and is an outward manifestation of all the bad character traits and dirtiness inside me?
The good news is that I recognize what's happening better now, but the bad news is that the messages were received pretty constantly most of my life -- along with comments about how fat I was -- and they're deeply embedded in my own psyche.
You know why parents can push our buttons so well? They installed them.
Hope knowing someone else relates helps.
Posted by AuntieMel on May 11, 2004, at 13:45:11
In reply to priceless quote from parent, posted by Emme on May 11, 2004, at 11:36:29
Mom was "depressed" back when that meant hospital and being plugged into a light socket. But she learned to make the best of it.
Sitting at a table, playing cards with the other patients:
pt1: 'I sure wish I was home' (sigh)
pt2: 'I sure wish I was home' (deep sigh)
.
.
.
ptn: 'I sure wish I was home' (really deep sigh)
mom: 'Not me, I'm having fun'Here's to hoping we all get there someday.
Posted by B2chica on May 11, 2004, at 15:36:49
In reply to priceless quote from parent, posted by Emme on May 11, 2004, at 11:36:29
Sorry so long but had Lots to comment on.
> Okay, so I was nice and went to see my mother for Mother's Day.
the question here is did you do this for Her or for You? Even on the beloved mothers day you should only go to see her if it's what You want, and if you feel up to it. I did not, i was having a rough weekend, i'm lucky i could even call her on the phone...i hate to say this but luckily she was taking a nap when i called and so she was ready to get off the phone real quick.
>stigma. Growing up, I absorbed the idea that people who were referred to as "mentally disturbed" were really abnormal, weird people who were incapable of normal human relationships. People you just don't want to be around. People who "need help". "Them"
-just to give your mom a little break, even so close as 30 years ago, Mental illness was equated with institutions. That even the slightest "signs" meant that society shunned you (because they were afraid of the unknown, that there is a chance it was contagious) and you were grouped with "others of your kind", a type of control, same with people with disabilities (which by the way MI and physical disabilities often were clumped together). Way before that- having "this" in your family was a sign of weakness in breading and if it was known, no one would want to marry your children, sometimes your family would be shunned and forced to move outside the city or straight into poverty (i'm talking loooooong time ago here guys).
Anyway, from generation to generation this was a SEVERE fear and stigma passed down. Should it be that way now?? NO, you'd think things would have changed ALOT since this is 2004, however, remember that some schools were still segregated back in the 80's and i mean 1980's not 1880's! So society is just real slow and it takes people standing up and saying "see! i have this and i'm no different than you". this will cause fear and drawback, however the more it's out there, the more people hear this, the more it becomes part of their environment...thus exceptance.
See how easy that is? you only have to beat people over the head with a big stick inorder for them to have acceptance and nonjudgment??
:)
> I don't know why, but at the moment I'm having a tough time with the concept of myself as having a mental illness. I go through phases of accepting it as I would any other illness, and phases of really feeling defective. I'm having a hard time saying "mood disorder" or "depression".Don't feel bad about this, i think we've all been there, mostly due to the stigma that was passed down to us. But ask yourself, before you had the label did you think of yourself as "defective"? or just unwell, sad, confused and maybe different? Don't let a label tell you your "ill" (which i still believe it's a difference not illness-right texaschic!)
i personally prefer affective disorder or just plain Bipolar2, and yes i make sure and say 2 cuz most people only think there's one kind.
and besides, who says you have to "say" anything. it's who you are, it's part of you. you don't need to walk around with a sign on. Just be you. Just get mad if your mad, feel sad, feel happy, feel lonley, feel numb, it's part of you. Then hold your chin up-get your @ss to the pdoc and try some drug combo's cuz you shouldn't have to live being sad all the time.
>Maybe I'm just maxxed out on it.
BINGO. sometimes i just get SICK of it, it seems like i'm always focused or thinking about my emotions...i get sick of that.
Go outside, get a pet, garden, go to the library (and go straight to the fiction side).
and when you have questions or just want to talk with people who understand...come here, you're ALWAYS Welcome.take care.
B2c.
Posted by Emme on May 11, 2004, at 21:23:56
In reply to Sorry, I can't relate at all... » Emme, posted by Racer on May 11, 2004, at 13:36:14
> It is hard, and I'll see your parental tact with another: my mother is concerned with my weight, right? So, we're out one day looking at yarn, and she says in her whisper (heard in the next time zone), "That woman shouldn't be knitting, she should be at the gym." Says that sort of thing about 90% of the women we saw in our quest for The Perfect Yarn. Then, at lunch that day, she starts into a diatribe about how she's obviously never had a problem like that with self-indulgence and laziness, because she's never had a weight problem! Hello? Mom? On *this* planet, a day of those messages could almost be predicted to confirm my weight problems, you know? Maybe it's hearing those things all these years that leads to things that worry you about me, like eating one quarter of what's on my plate for lunch, instead of eating a normal amount? Maybe it wouldn't feel so much like the end of the world to gain a pound or two -- or even thirty -- if I didn't know that eating when you're hungry is the definition of self-indulgence and laziness and is an outward manifestation of all the bad character traits and dirtiness inside me?> The good news is that I recognize what's happening better now, but the bad news is that the messages were received pretty constantly most of my life -- along with comments about how fat I was -- and they're deeply embedded in my own psyche.
Wow. It sounds like you got loaded up with some *really* nasty baggage. It's tough to excavate, isn't it? I hope you've lost some of the feeling of bad character and dirtiness. I got some serious "men are bad" baggage during my upbringing. It took a little while to get those out, but not before some serious damage was done.
> You know why parents can push our buttons so well? They installed them.
LOL. Great way of putting it.
I hate to fall into the stereotype of "blame the parents". I feel guilty about it. I mean, they do the best they can. But sometimes they do and say wacky things. My therapist thinks that in addition to the encouragement and nurturing I got as a kid, I might have also gotten a lot of negative messages that pushed me into being relentlessly hard on myself. Thing is, I actually have relatively little recollection of my childhood. Less than other people do, probably. So what is left for me to deal with is the present. And she really does say wacky things.
My mom didn't invent societal stigma against mental illness and it's common among her generation. But her clinging to it with such vehemence prevents me from wanting to ever disclose my situation to her. She thinks therapy and counseling are good things, so it's great she has that openness. But she's totally opposed to medication and I do think she thinks of "mental illness" as something other people have - that her panic and anxiety problems do not fall under that category.
Well, I'm getting tired and rambling. 'Night.
Posted by Emme on May 11, 2004, at 21:25:21
In reply to Re: cute quote from parent, posted by AuntieMel on May 11, 2004, at 13:45:11
> Mom was "depressed" back when that meant hospital and being plugged into a light socket. But she learned to make the best of it.
>
> Sitting at a table, playing cards with the other patients:
>
> pt1: 'I sure wish I was home' (sigh)
> pt2: 'I sure wish I was home' (deep sigh)
> .
> .
> .
> ptn: 'I sure wish I was home' (really deep sigh)
> mom: 'Not me, I'm having fun'
>
> Here's to hoping we all get there someday.That's great! She sounds like a sharp, funny person. :)
Posted by Emme on May 11, 2004, at 22:20:17
In reply to Re: priceless quote from parent » Emme, posted by B2chica on May 11, 2004, at 15:36:49
>
> > Okay, so I was nice and went to see my mother for Mother's Day.
>
> the question here is did you do this for Her or for You?Well, both really. If I didn't go, I'd be packing my bags for a guilt trip. And if she didn't book a ticket, I'd book one for myself. Seriously, though, I hear you about looking after your own well being. In a way that's what I'm attempting to do. I try to space out and carefully choose short visits to preserve sanity. It's strategic. I don't live that far away, but I don't go that often. So selecting Mother's Day as one of the times I visit is logical, and there's no reason to expect it to be any more or less enjoyable than another time. (this visit wasn't bad, actually - there's always a priceless quote.)
> -just to give your mom a little break, even so close as 30 years ago, Mental illness was equated with institutions.
Yeah, I know... I actually don't blame her for generating stigma and I know her opinions were pretty common for her generation. She does have a tendency to gossip a lot about other people, though, and can be pretty judgmental. And that's a great way to inject attitudes into kids.
> See how easy that is? you only have to beat people over the head with a big stick inorder for them to have acceptance and nonjudgment??
> :)Too bad that's the way it always is, huh? Too bad the term "mental illness" conjures up images of a serial killer. Now I've got a cartoon image in my head of a serial killer whapping an intolerant person over the head. :)
> Don't feel bad about this, i think we've all been there, mostly due to the stigma that was passed down to us. But ask yourself, before you had the label did you think of yourself as "defective"? or just unwell, sad, confused and maybe different? Don't let a label tell you your "ill" (which i still believe it's a difference not illness-right texaschic!)Well, I didn't have a label until it was nasty enough to get one. When I got the label I was horrified and it took a while to get my brain wrapped around it and I still go back to struggling with it sometimes (like now).
I think I understand what you mean about not being too influenced or ruled by labels. Truthfully, deep down I do think it's an illness. At least for me. It's taken a toll on me physically, mentally, psychologically, and impaired my ability to function and caused me to writhe in psychic agony. It just ain't a healthy way to be. But I do need to get out of this mode of feeling ashamed and get back to a mindset where the diagnosis of "mood disorder" isn't more damning than any other.
> i personally prefer affective disorder or just plain Bipolar2,
Yeah,I prefer that as well.
> > Maybe I'm just maxxed out on it.
> BINGO. sometimes i just get SICK of it, it seems like i'm always focused or thinking about my emotions...i get sick of that.I'd definitely like to get to the point where it's a background thing, you know, and not taking up so much of my waking consciousness.
Hmmm....I was just thinking. Maybe I feel the stigma thing right now because I'm not living a normal life. What I mean is, that I think if I had a more balanced life and didn't see myself being nervous and stressed and isolated, I would feel more like a real person and the diagnosis and stigma wouldn't bother me so much. Does that make sense? This out-of-work, trying to get life togehter nonsense is just not fun.
Well, Thursday I'm heaing out of town for a few days to see an old college buddy. Maybe that'll take the edge off things.
> and when you have questions or just want to talk with people who understand...come here, you're ALWAYS Welcome.
Thanks for the support. 'Tis a good place with good folks. :)
cheers,
Emme
Posted by finelinebob on May 11, 2004, at 22:42:08
In reply to Re: Sorry, I can't relate at all... » Racer, posted by Emme on May 11, 2004, at 21:23:56
> > You know why parents can push our buttons so well? They installed them.
>
> LOL. Great way of putting it.
>
> I hate to fall into the stereotype of "blame the parents".Well, they DO say insanity is genetic ... you get it from your kids.
Looks like a chicken/egg situation.....
;^)
flb
Posted by Racer on May 12, 2004, at 9:38:58
In reply to Re: Sorry, I can't relate at all... » Racer, posted by Emme on May 11, 2004, at 21:23:56
Honestly -- your description of your mother sounds so much like mine! Could it be that we are both alternates for a split personality?
Seriously, I went through the blame the parents thing and figured out that no matter who installed the buttons, it was up to me what I wanted on my dashboard. We don't come into thisworld out of a vacuum, so there will be detritus from those around us.
My Anthro Prof used to tell stories about how every town meeting in every town hall in every village in Hungary would invariably start with someone standing up to say,
"In order fully to comprehend all the implications of putting a stop sign at the corner by the church, one must go back to the time of Istvan..."
To the end of the first millenium. Our parents taught us things that shaped us, not necessarily in the best possible way, and not necessarily in the way they would have wanted. THeir parents did the same to them. When there's a perfect parent, well, something new will come into the world. Are you able to get along with your mother, or does this cause conflicts in your current relationship wiht her? If there's still conflict, that's what I'd worry about. If there's no longer conflict -- except over you feeling unsupported -- then maybe there's not so much to worry about.
By the way, my mother says those fat things around me, I think, in hopes of finding a way to bring up my weight. She's not trying to hurt me -- I know that to my bones -- but she doesn't know what to do, or how to say it, and she's so afraid that she bumbles around with weird things like "look how fat those people are, and I'm not fat because fat is bad and -- um -- is that all you're going to eat?" She's frightened, she doesn't think she can bear to hear what she might hear if she says anything aloud. Poor Mom, she has twisted herself more than she's twisted me.
Dunno if anything there helps...
Posted by Racer on May 12, 2004, at 9:40:00
In reply to Re: Sorry, I can't relate at all..., posted by finelinebob on May 11, 2004, at 22:42:08
> > > You know why parents can push our buttons so well? They installed them.
> >
> > LOL. Great way of putting it.
> >
> > I hate to fall into the stereotype of "blame the parents".
>
> Well, they DO say insanity is genetic ... you get it from your kids.
>
> Looks like a chicken/egg situation.....
>
> ;^)
> flbI have it on good authority that the chicken had to get laid before the egg could...
Posted by TexasChic on May 12, 2004, at 9:42:27
In reply to Re: Sorry, I can't relate at all... » Racer, posted by Emme on May 11, 2004, at 21:23:56
My theory on blaming your parents for screwing you up is this (not including abuse): as a kid, your parents are responsible for you being screwed up, but as an adult, its your responsibily where you decide to go from there. My parents did a number on me, but I don't think they're responsible for the things I've done as an adult. That's all me. Of course there's some things that take you a while to realize, but still, they're your actions. I have a cousin who a few years back was blaming his mother (who is Bipolar) for his screw ups now, like drinking too much, relationship screw ups, ect. And he was like, 40 years old! I was like, you have got to be kidding me. If you don't try to change, that's nobodys fault but your own. Not that its easy or anything, but still, parents are human and they *are* going to screw up. That's just human nature. But who you decide to be as an adult is up the the individual. Anyway, that's my rant, and it is by no means directed at anyone or really has to do with this thread. Its just one of my soap boxes, you know?
Posted by TexasChic on May 12, 2004, at 9:46:09
In reply to Uh-oh... I think we might have a problem » Emme, posted by Racer on May 12, 2004, at 9:38:58
Ha! We wrote pratically the same thing at the same time! Cool!
Posted by finelinebob on May 12, 2004, at 9:47:50
In reply to Re: Sorry, I can't relate at all... » finelinebob, posted by Racer on May 12, 2004, at 9:40:00
> > Looks like a chicken/egg situation.....
>
> I have it on good authority that the chicken had to get laid before the egg could...Didn't you remind me already that you are always right? My mistake...
;^)
flb
Posted by Emme on May 12, 2004, at 12:25:11
In reply to Uh-oh... I think we might have a problem » Emme, posted by Racer on May 12, 2004, at 9:38:58
> Honestly -- your description of your mother sounds so much like mine! Could it be that we are both alternates for a split personality?
Well, one of my college roommates and It think we have the same mother. So welcome to the family!
> Seriously, I went through the blame the parents thing and figured out that no matter who installed the buttons, it was up to me what I wanted on my dashboard. We don't come into thisworld out of a vacuum, so there will be detritus from those around us.
Agreed. Oddly enough, several years back, when I first started therapy I was 100% unwilling to assign *any* responsibility to my mother even though she had piled some hefty emtional baggage on me. Problem was, I was instead blaming myself for every bad encounter, feeling responsible for my mom's happiness even though I couldn't make it happen, and feeling guilty way too easily. My therapist said it wasn't a matter of blame but rather seeing things as they are. I think she was trying to get me to see what things were beyond my control and had nothing to do with me per se. So my goal is to objectively see reality without crossing over into "blame, blame, blame". Dunno if I am succeeding.
I've become increasingly aware that she's an unhealthy person and has probably been so most of her life. She's got fine qualities too and means well and can be very nurturing and can be a lot of fun. She really does try and people outside of the family really like her. But... she's wacky and I'm still working on being "zen" about it.
> My Anthro Prof used to tell stories about how every town meeting in every town hall in every village in Hungary would invariably start with someone standing up to say,
> "In order fully to comprehend all the implications of putting a stop sign at the corner by the church, one must go back to the time of Istvan..."That's cute.
> Are you able to get along with your mother, or does this cause conflicts in your current relationship wiht her? If there's still conflict, that's what I'd worry about. If there's no longer conflict -- except over you feeling unsupported -- then maybe there's not so much to worry about.
What's past is past. And it's be much easier to bury it except...the present ain't so hot. We get along because I choose to let a lot of things slide. On the positive side, she's simmered down some over the years and I don't think she's gonna ever disown me again (she'd retract within hours).
But there are still quick sarcastic digs about my brothers and about me and about other people. There's still the occasional meltdown where she sobs endlessly about her life and rehashes how badly she's been hurt by other family members. My T and I have come up with some strategies for the next time *that* happens.
I can relate to the weight thing. I'm reasonably slim and for the past decade she's been convinced that I have an eating disorder, which I don't. Now I know she's being a protective mother.
For the longest time she thought my niece had a mild form of Down's syndrome and that she wasn't being told about it. Ain't so. She accused someone of driving her mother to suicide - there was no evidence the death was a suicide.
I know she battles her own demons and it can't be fun to live with her level of anxiety. And to be fair, we often do have a nice time together. But, it can be awfully tiring and wreaks havoc with my moods and anxiety levels. I'm still working on detaching myself and letting it roll off me.
> By the way, my mother says those fat things around me, I think, in hopes of finding a way to bring up my weight. She's not trying to hurt me -- I know that to my bones -- but she doesn't know what to do, or how to say it, and she's so afraid that she bumbles around with weird things like "look how fat those people are, and I'm not fat because fat is bad and -- um -- is that all you're going to eat?" She's frightened, she doesn't think she can bear to hear what she might hear if she says anything aloud. Poor Mom, she has twisted herself more than she's twisted me.
That's good that you can step back and think about where she's coming from and not take it too personally. Does that help take some of the sting out?
Thanks for the commiseration.
Posted by Racer on May 12, 2004, at 15:51:46
In reply to Re: Uh-oh... I think we might have a problem » Racer, posted by Emme on May 12, 2004, at 12:25:11
Again, you sound a lot like me. When I first started therapy -- oh so many years ago (like 20?) -- I couldn't say that Mother was at fault for anything. I mean, I was telling these stories to my therapist about how *I* hadn't reacted appropriately at age 6 or 8 over something Mother had done. I also wouldn't admit that I was angry about anything that had gone on in my family, not my father's utter failure to be responsible about keeping in touch, not my mother's failure to protect me from her boyfriend -- nothing. I wasn't angry, not me, good girls don't get angry and never blame anyone except ourselves.
The next stage, of course, is to get angry. I went through a stage where my mother was the devil herself. (OK, I never thought Mother was evil. I just thought she was not very good to me. I think I was right.)
Now we're in a much better place. It helps that I adore my mother. She is a lot of fun, can be very interesting, has a way of cutting to the heart of an issue with such utter naivety that it's impossible not to be charmed by her. (Mother is the one who would innocently point out that the Emperor is naked as a jaybird.) She's talented, captivating, utterly impossible. (Personally, I'm planning to settle for implausible. Impossible seems so much work!) So, we get along for the most part, and I know I enjoy her company. Took a long time to get here, though.
It's always funny to hear stories so close to my own from others. Thanks for posting this thread, gives me something to think about.
Posted by Emme on May 12, 2004, at 22:17:12
In reply to You know, Sis... » Emme, posted by Racer on May 12, 2004, at 15:51:46
> Again, you sound a lot like me.
Well, Sis, we do have the same mother, so... ;)
> It's always funny to hear stories so close to my own from others. Thanks for posting this thread, gives me something to think about.I'm glad it was productive. It gave me things to think about also. I'm out of town for a few days and when I come back, mom's coming for 3 days. I'm anxious about it. I'll try to be mellow. I may end up with more priceless quotes. I hope we will have a nice time.
Posted by AuntieMel on May 13, 2004, at 14:25:37
In reply to Re: cute quote from parent » AuntieMel, posted by Emme on May 11, 2004, at 21:25:21
Actually she is a hoot still, at 74.
And it's her turn - she's being supportive of me throug my depression.
This is the end of the thread.
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