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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on February 28, 2004, at 22:20:12
I've been musing about fear recently. From mild anxiety through outright paralyzing terror. I don't know what brought the following thought to mind, but it got me started on a tangent I'd like some feedback on.
Most medical research is done on men, and it's only more recently that the differences between genders is really becoming a focus of interest. Recently, I read a short article, which I can't identify due to a brain like a sieve, that said that the fear response -- our old friend "fight or flight" -- is true of men, but women have a different model for responding to the same stress hormones that create fight or flight in men. The article said that, in women, the response is more accurately described as "tend or befriend." I've noticed that, when I'm at my worst, I'm also more likely to extend myself for others, and I wonder if that's partially a response to my own fears? Then it I started to wonder about this board, since it seems to me that many of the most frequent posters seem to be female -- at least to me -- and it got me started into a musing mode.
So, what do others think about this? Do you find that you're more likely to come here to support others when you most need support yourself?
Dr Bob, do you know of any studies involving this sort of idea? (Heheh, are *you* planning on studying this phenomenon? You know, get the ball rolling on it, now that you've thought of it?)
Thanks, all!
Posted by octopusprime on February 29, 2004, at 1:08:17
In reply to Musing about fear -- ?? for Dr Bob, too??, posted by Racer on February 28, 2004, at 22:20:12
Racer -
Here's some anecdotal evidence for you. I may be an anomality (slightly tomboyish and schooled and raised in a mostly male environment) but I definitely have a well developed fight-or-flight response.
This is mostly in direct response to threats to my personal safety and security. I don't really want to get into details, but last time my safety was personally threatened, I fled. The time before that, when my living situation was compromised, I fought.
I've had a discussion about anger with some posters around here before. I tend to anger. I like to argue. This is atypical around here. I think anger is required for a fight-or-flight response (you "flight" in the absence of anger, as it happens)
Although I suppose I am here to tend to others while I fear for myself and my illness, but I haven't been posting much so I can't really say for sure. It's food for thought.
The other thing is - I find my need for support (or lack thereof) is totally separate from a fight-or-flight response. I don't know if these are related questions that you're posing. It's one thing to visit a supportive environment, and do as the Romans do. It's entirely another to flee from stress (especially since this board seems to create stress for some posters, but I don't think it's necessarily because of fighting).
Posted by fayeroe on February 29, 2004, at 7:30:55
In reply to Musing about fear -- ?? for Dr Bob, too??, posted by Racer on February 28, 2004, at 22:20:12
Let's see, Racer, if I can shed some light on fear.....at least what I have experienced. I have a well developed "fight or flight" mode. My "fight" mode is very strong IF I think that I can do something that will "win" or "save" the situation. I was attacked once and a dog that was with me saved me initially. I then fled with the attacker's hand caught in my truck door. At any time I could have stopped, opened door and his hand would have been freed. But I was in such a "fight" mode that I continued on until he came loose from gravity or whatever. But I recall my feelings then and the overwhelming one was to "fight"him even while fleeing.
As for posting here when I'm at my lowest, I never divulge that I am there. I think I'm much more responsive when I'm feeling competent and strong and might be able to help someone. You know I firmly believe that we all star in our own movie..some produce, direct and star. I just star in mine. So, if you are thoroughly confused by this now, I'll close with this: basically, I think women are stronger than men when it comes to protecting and helping others.....so I think that the female usually will "fight" over "flight". Pat
Posted by All Done on February 29, 2004, at 8:56:13
In reply to Musing about fear -- ?? for Dr Bob, too??, posted by Racer on February 28, 2004, at 22:20:12
Racer,
I've heard the same thing you did, but I notice that when I'm not feeling well, I post a lot less. I feel guilty about that, but I suppose that's another issue altogether...
All Done
Posted by Dinah on February 29, 2004, at 9:05:35
In reply to Musing about fear -- ?? for Dr Bob, too??, posted by Racer on February 28, 2004, at 22:20:12
How about... it all depends? At least for me.
I have an extraordinarily strong flight response. And a reasonably strong fight response, although anger doesn't sit well with me, and I pay a very high price for any fighting I might do.
I think trying to help others is very therapeutic and I applaud Dr. Bob for giving us this forum to do that. And there are times when I'm feeling bad that I tend to post here more often. But there are times, like now, when I feel like I have very little reserves, and very little to give anyone else. So maybe it depends on the type of feeling bad? Is it the type that has lots of extra energy or very little energy? At least for me. The joys of cyclothymia. So many ways of feeling bad. :) But I probably post most when I'm feeling good.
The really funny thing to me, and what I don't understand at all, is that in person I'm not a very affiliative sort at all. But here on the board I tend to be more of a people person than I am in person. In person, an evening with good friends is an ordeal.
Posted by Jai Narayan on February 29, 2004, at 21:49:39
In reply to Musing about fear -- ?? for Dr Bob, too??, posted by Racer on February 28, 2004, at 22:20:12
> I've been musing about fear recently. From mild anxiety through outright paralyzing terror.
*All my life fear was my first feeling. I would mostly fight but when it looked like I might loose the fight I would flee.
Since I have done EMDR. I have a choice. Fear is not my first feeling anymore. I have the complete compliment of feelings at my disposal.
I am more complicated now and will go for peace as the choice. I would like to negotiate now....lets talk about it and look at all the possibilities....
It just doesn't look like I need to fight anymore I am more open to looking at all the possibilities. I am more mellow.
Is peace too much to work toward? must we fight? Or even run away?I come to this site to communicate with really interesting and wonderful people...not cuz I need them but I like them. I like this place.It's safe and fair and loving....let's face it we are all struggling in one way or another....I like the honesty I get here.
I like the rules that were set up by Dr. Bob.
I come here because it's interesting. always so interesting.
Posted by Racer on March 1, 2004, at 0:25:59
In reply to flight or fight, posted by Jai Narayan on February 29, 2004, at 21:49:39
Personally, when I feel threatened, I tend to freeze -- physically. I can hardly breathe, my muscles tense up, and I can't speak above a slow whisper. Oh, yeah, and I've been thinking about trying EMDR, so it's nice to have your feedback about your experiences with it.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 1, 2004, at 1:02:35
In reply to Re: flight or fight -- or FREEZE » Jai Narayan, posted by Racer on March 1, 2004, at 0:25:59
I'm a freezer, too. (okay, that sounds a bit Gestaltish, but you know what I mean) LOL.
I really do freeze. I can't fight. The very idea appals me. At times I think I should take a self-defense course, but I just don't know if I could. I like to think that I would flee, but one time when I should have, I froze, instead. It took a long time to work through my feelings about being attacked and doing nothing. I'm not sure if it is resolved or repressed.
But anyway, to answer your question...I think I come here more times during a given day if I'm not doing well. I tend to support more than ask for support, but I'm getting better at asking for it. Especially since I am so secure that there is support here for me.
When I'm doing well, I find I get too busy to spend as much time here. I do miss it, or feel guilty if I can't join every thread that catches my interest. But I'm much less paralyzed or procrastinating when I feel good.
Interesting topic.
gg
Posted by pegasus on March 1, 2004, at 13:20:39
In reply to Musing about fear -- ?? for Dr Bob, too??, posted by Racer on February 28, 2004, at 22:20:12
It's an interesting hypothesis. I think I do come here more when I'm feeling fragile, which often involves being anxious or afraid of various things.
I also come here more when I'm having a boring day at work, or trying to write something long (my writing style seems to require frequent brief breaks), or if I'm really interested in a thread and want to see what other people said. I tend to not post as much when I'm really swamped, of course (which happens too often).
- p
Posted by Jai Narayan on March 2, 2004, at 18:30:22
In reply to Re: flight or fight -- or FREEZE » Jai Narayan, posted by Racer on March 1, 2004, at 0:25:59
I had a dream recently where I was standing at a window watching 3 men making their way of the sidewalk toward my back door. I went out to the back porch and as I stepped out the first of the 3 men came up the stairs and pulled back his fist....he was about to hit me in the face. I woke up...but I felt this kind fainting feeling...like I was too weak to move...is that what you were talking about?
Is that the freeze...?
It was very disturbing. But it was only a dream.
Posted by Racer on March 2, 2004, at 19:40:47
In reply to In my dreams I freeze, posted by Jai Narayan on March 2, 2004, at 18:30:22
Here's a dream that I had as a teenager that pretty well describes the feeling:
I was hiding from some drug dealers or other sort of criminals, because I'd seen them commit a crime of some sort. At the moment in the dream when I saw them commit the crime, I blamed myself for having seen what they did. I also knew that they knew I'd seen it. That meant that they'd kill me if they could find me. I ended up hiding under a heavy canvas tarp, trying not to breathe, not to shiver, just stay totally motionless. All the while, knowing that they would keep looking, knowing that they would kill me as soon as they found me, knowing that I had no way to escape, etc.
(I hadn't thought of that dream for decades, by the way, but it was recurrent for a while there. Your description of watching the men come towards you brought it all back, including the sense of dread.)
In waking life, it's basically just being very, very still. Not breathing very deeply, because that would give me away. Not relaxing my muscles, because that would make me a larger target. I almost always know where my escape routes are, just an automatic instinct to see how I can get to safety, even though there never really is any.
(Part of that, by the way, about no safety, is true and not just impaired perception. In my family, there is no safe place when someone starts going off. You can't escape, because then you could never come back, and they would come after you. They're very loving, but very explosive. I just plain can't take that, and just freeze, hoping it won't be very bad this time.)
So, that's what freezing means to me. Does it make any sense?
Posted by Jai Narayan on March 3, 2004, at 19:45:20
In reply to Pretty much, I think... » Jai Narayan, posted by Racer on March 2, 2004, at 19:40:47
I have spent lots of my dreaming time running and hiding.
My dreams are of being Jewish and hiding from the Nazi's. I guess the diary of Ann Frank really went deep into my fears. I am some times hiding in a wall.
I haven't had those dreams for a while. I really am not sure they are still there.So to answer your question...Yes, I think I know what you are talking about.
I am so sorry your family treated you that way.
I wish you could have had some protection.
Life can be so hard.
Posted by Racer on March 3, 2004, at 20:11:08
In reply to yes, this sounds familiar, posted by Jai Narayan on March 3, 2004, at 19:45:20
I've had similar dreams, although probably not from Anne Frank ;-)
While I was growing up, my mother was one of the Young People within her field. The Grown Ups were all of an age to have fought in WWII, which created such a set of conflicts for me. In school, they taught me that all the German soldiers were Evil Nazis, that none of them were anything other than Evil Personified, yet at home, we often had men who suffered so much to protect their home, their wives, their mothers, who were in Germany. Yes, I have eaten dinner with a man who worked directly for the SS -- but not because he believed in their philosophy! I heard the stories, I met the people, I *knew* that the Germans were not Evil People as a whole, that a sickness had infected the country for a time, but that view outraged the teachers when I objected to their simplistic attitude. One even told me that I should go and be a Nazi over in Germany, if that was how I felt! So, being a kid, and confused, I had dreams of Nazi soldiers chasing me.
And just to be clear: the explosions in my family were most often "only" verbal. They hurt a lot, but only became physical a few times. Mostly just unhappy people spilling the excess rage out through their mouths. Probably would have hurt less to be spanked, in the long run, but I didn't want anyone to get the idea that I was beaten ;-)
Sharing dreams, huh? Must be a sign...
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 7, 2004, at 16:38:18
In reply to Musing about fear -- ?? for Dr Bob, too??, posted by Racer on February 28, 2004, at 22:20:12
> Dr Bob, do you know of any studies involving this sort of idea? (Heheh, are *you* planning on studying this phenomenon? You know, get the ball rolling on it, now that you've thought of it?)
I'm not aware of any studies and not planning to study it here myself, but I think it would be really interesting...
Bob
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