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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by kara lynne on July 18, 2003, at 3:00:28
I felt like I went through one of the worst periods of withdrawl from him last night-- and survived. Is it a coincidence that at *that* point he calls--not once, but seven times? He left messages starting with the weight he's lost, graduating to how he's missing me (guess he was having a lonely moment, poor thing...), and finally asking me to go out for a "nice dinner" at my favorite resaurant. By the last message his tone was sarcastic. The messages spanned from last night to tonight and I didn't answer any of them. He was clearly pissed.
I called my counselor at home (10pm and we spoke for an hour). After that I did one of the hardest things I've had to do and wrote an email to him. He won't have his email set up for a few days, so now I'll have the agony of knowing it's waiting for him. I wrote:
"Although it makes me quite sad to say this I must.
I don't want to re-engage in a relationship pattern that is extremely painful for me. You have made it utterly clear that you do not want what I want. Not only do you not want what I want, you insult it. You distort what I mean and you denegrate who I am. You are more invested in making me wrong than you are in making love to me. I don't see how a friendly dinner is going to change this.
If I can't expect a commitment from you after five (or twenty five) years, then I'd rather not expect dinner either. If you call that an ultimatum, fine.
I don' t ever want to have to worry again about such fundamental things as whether or not I'm respected, whether my mate will stay in contact with me, or most importantly--whether or not he *wants* to stay in contact with me. Whether or not he truly, deeply wants to be with me. Has more of an interest in making things work, rather than making constant excuses for why he shouldn't have to. I want to be a choice-- not an ultimatum.
I love you. Truly, madly, deeply. I wish things had worked out between us.
But they didn't."
Ok, so it wasn't a masterpiece, but it was hard to write and even harder to send. The idea that I really have to let go puts me back in that pain I was in yesterday. I have to keep reminding myself of what it was really like, and questioning whether or not I'm worth more than an occasional dinner.
I wanted to go to dinner. I was so elated to hear the messages--suddenly everything was ok again, I could breathe. How could I have sent that email? I can't let go of the hope, although I was just beginning to when he called. I wish he would come to me with something real-- although my therapist says he should have done it long before this. He should have apologized at the beginning. He should have showed up with a ring. He should have come to me when I was in the worst pain, rather than waiting until he got a twinge of loneliness. She doesn't think it's possible, but I can't let go of that hope.
But if I went back, and went to dinner, and went to bed, and stayed at his new castle--we'd be right back where we started. He'd say he was just about to marry me, but I did something wrong, or ahem, still wouldn't cook. Those dinners would backfire.
So will my email, I'm sure. I expect a nasty response that will leave me feeling desperate and self blaming. Then I can say if only I hadn't written it, and simply gone to dinner, everything would have worked out.
My counselor suggested he might be more likely to say, "Marry me, c***". It's pretty appropriate-- I need to remember the reality.
I'm sorry for my conflicted ramble. I'm not doing this well. I will go read my new books on narcissism and stopping self hate.
Posted by Tabitha on July 18, 2003, at 3:41:54
In reply to He called., posted by kara lynne on July 18, 2003, at 3:00:28
What a great email. You should be proud. Don't give your heart back to this guy in exchange for scraps of affection.
What strength you showed by not returning his calls!
Posted by giget on July 18, 2003, at 7:50:52
In reply to Re: He called., posted by Tabitha on July 18, 2003, at 3:41:54
Kara,
I am glad at least one of us is not making a fool of herself. I am proud of you for having that strength! Keep it up...
Posted by fallsfall on July 18, 2003, at 9:26:17
In reply to Re: He called., posted by giget on July 18, 2003, at 7:50:52
You are so brave. That was a great email. What courage it took to send it.
You deserve the best - and you took steps so you could get the best.
Hang in there!
Posted by Sabina on July 18, 2003, at 12:46:48
In reply to He called., posted by kara lynne on July 18, 2003, at 3:00:28
It can be so beguiling to think that you could have finally gotten the "fix" you'd been dreaming of through the most lonely times since the split. Knowing that you could have been on the path to installing yourself in that life (if only for awhile) just by accepting a dinner invitation? My gawd, how tempting for anyone! I'm really quite suspicious that I would have caved in and rationalized myelf into accepting. I think you are an *incredibly* brave woman to have stayed strong and maintained the distance necessary to see things clearly, from that awful series of messages to your emailed response. Whether you feel it yet or not, I *really* believe you've made a breakthrough. Fwiw, I'm very proud of you.
Posted by mair on July 18, 2003, at 15:31:47
In reply to He called., posted by kara lynne on July 18, 2003, at 3:00:28
Posted by gabbix2 on July 18, 2003, at 17:14:21
In reply to I'm in Awe!! Congratulations (nm) » kara lynne, posted by mair on July 18, 2003, at 15:31:47
I mean courageous, relationships like that are as seductive as cocaine, and like Sabina said You turned down that fix and so eloquently.
The points in that email were sharp without being vindictive so there is nothing he can mock.He must have had to check to see if the sun was still going to rise this morning!
You are my hero!
Actually I am following in your footsteps, and
have decided that even if Tom does show up,
its too late. He's put me through hell.
Unless he was hurt. There is no other excuse.
Posted by noa on July 18, 2003, at 19:26:43
In reply to He called., posted by kara lynne on July 18, 2003, at 3:00:28
Stay strong, as you already are.
Posted by kara lynne on July 18, 2003, at 21:32:35
In reply to Re: He called. » kara lynne, posted by noa on July 18, 2003, at 19:26:43
Well this feels awful after seeing the messages above, but I'm going to say it anyway.
He called again a few times and I finally decided to call him and tell him I sent him an email and there was nothing more to talk about--so he would quit calling me. Because I thought he wasn't getting his email and his messages would go on and on and *they were becoming addictive.
God. I'm just flattened. I don't even know what happened. He sat there talking about how crushed he was-- how I was the only woman he ever loved. He claimed he really wouldn't have known what to say to make things better between us. So I gave him an example. I said, maybe you could have said something like "I love you and I'll do whatever it takes to make things work..."
At which point he said, "Isn't saying 'whatever' dangerous?' Then he went on about how many awful things I've said about him since our break up, and how that prohibited him from wanting to come forward in any significant way. And that that was why he thought I wouldn't have wanted to hear any positive things from him--like that he wanted to be with me.
And then, in a dramatic moment of emotion where he said he just couldn't talk anymore because he was so *distraught*-- I realized he had to *go* somewhere---so we got off the phone. He asked if we could continue the conversation tomorrow when he was a little 'clearer'. In other words, when he was less occupied.
The whole time he's telling me how much he loves me, but then there are these little interferences that he's paying more attention to. He couldn't even make the phone conversation a priority.
I don't know what happened. He said my email 'crushed' him. I asked him to please not respond to it, because his emails always hurt. At one point he said I was right, that we shouldn't talk to each other. So now, rather than just having sent the email and maintained a modicum of integrity, I've handed my power all back to him and he can now call the shots.
I asked him *why* he called--just to mess with me? Then it of course became nasty, and a game of whose tone was worse.
I feel really stupid. I don't know what I just did. I may have set myself back in a huge way.
I'm feeling desperate and panicked.
Posted by kara lynne on July 18, 2003, at 21:52:23
In reply to And then she blew it., posted by kara lynne on July 18, 2003, at 21:32:35
So the potency of that email is gone. He has me back where he wants me. He is off wherever he needs to be, with all his buddies, and some woman who he let me know has a crush on him.
I feel like I'm going to go out of my skin.
Posted by noa on July 18, 2003, at 22:06:22
In reply to Going way, way down., posted by kara lynne on July 18, 2003, at 21:52:23
think of it this way--like an empirical experiment. You try several different strategies, and then you learn whether they work or not.
Now you have a clearer idea of the power struggle. I get the feeling that he just wants to "win"--not that he is ready to make the relationship better but that he must have the upper hand.
I dunno--it's dangerous for me to weigh in so heavily on this side, as it's possible that you'll decide to go back to him. But he sounds like a manipulative and abusive guy, imho. There, I said it.
I would guess that no contact is best for your well-being.
You deserve much better than this.
Posted by Sabina on July 18, 2003, at 22:43:41
In reply to Going way, way down., posted by kara lynne on July 18, 2003, at 21:52:23
first, and obviously, there will be support for you here whether you decide to move in with him or get thyself to a nunnery first thing in the morning. you made a choice tonight that you aren't happy with in retrospect. tomorrow you will have the choice all over again to give him power over you or not. you can still have power and potency no matter what choice the morning brings. you're in my thoughts.
Posted by fallsfall on July 18, 2003, at 23:21:54
In reply to And then she blew it., posted by kara lynne on July 18, 2003, at 21:32:35
This is the first minute of the rest of your life.
You can make new choices from this point on. As Sabina said, we will be with you however you choose.
Please don't beat yourself up. This is hard enough as it is.
Just a suggestion: Print out your "And then she blew it" post. Take a pink highlighter and highlight all of the red flags for him. (i.e. "Isn't saying 'whatever' dangerous?' ). Maybe I just like to play with highlighters...
Let us know how it goes. We are thinking of you.
Posted by kara lynne on July 19, 2003, at 1:23:22
In reply to Re: And then she blew it. » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on July 18, 2003, at 23:21:54
my moment of stupidity. I felt so bad after reading the posts supporting my moment of strength.
I am trying to regain control of the wheel, here. Luckily (?) he's doing such a piss poor job of making an effort I think I'll be able to resist his declarations of undying love. God, I'll really take any scrap. He had me spoon feeding it to him---and then he took a nice chunk out of my hand.
The irony is that he was responding to my email the *moment* I called him. So I could have just let it be, although he'd told me his email was down and he kept leaving those messages. It's hard for me to keep hearing his voice--his innocent inquiries and sadness about missing me. I'm so damn good as long as I'm not there. It is truly mind blowing.
I'm not going back to him. He's still not asking me to go back. Maybe it was good I talked to him, because I asked him to clarify exactly what he wanted or intended to do about missing me---a big, fat NOTHING. Maybe a little bickering, or a power struggle. But he couldn't just do it. He couldn't just sustain whatever it was he was missing long enough make it matter.
I don't know what he was thinking. He said he wanted to engage simply at first--that it wasn't the right time to go diving right in to that important stuff. So we could talk about his new house, or his new book, or his new friends.
Was I wrong to come on so strong? He acted so clueless. It's hard to believe he really wouldn't know what happened, or what to do about it.
He said he asked me to marry him the night of the pig, c*** tirade. Isn't that something? I musta missed it! He *did* want to marry me. Somewhere along the line in that conversation he *conceded* to the idea of marrying me, but it was more like a child agreeing to eat his peas as long he's promised his ice cream afterward. He said he felt pushed. I asked-- if the agreement was that we get married after three months of living together--how, after two years, this could be construed as pushing.
Well I guess I just wasn't light hearted enough. He kept saying he couldn't understand what happened; how our two perceptions could have been so drastically different that night. I guess he didn't mean it when he told me to pack my things and leave at one in the morning?
He said he truly wished that that evening and the phone conversation I overhead the next day had never happened.
But he still wouldn't, couldn't say the words-- it would have been so easy. Too easy. I wanted so much to be able to say, "I'm coming over." I miss him so, so much.
He says I'm the only woman he's ever loved. My therapist asked, What good has it done you?
Posted by fallsfall on July 19, 2003, at 4:10:28
In reply to Thank you for forgiving me, posted by kara lynne on July 19, 2003, at 1:23:22
Posted by Tabitha on July 20, 2003, at 15:54:49
In reply to Thank you for forgiving me, posted by kara lynne on July 19, 2003, at 1:23:22
Kara, this stuff doesn't negate your moment of strength. Obviously he took it seriously too, and is now putting in some effort to get you back to where you were. Change doesn't happen all at once. Be gentle with yourself.
I can relate though, I was telling my therapist how bad I felt for going back to my last guy after breaking off and telling all my friends I'd broken off. She said not to start worrying til round 10. I found that comforting. We brokeup about 4-5 times before the end. So.... I feel good for getting out in less than 10 rounds! It's all a matter of perspective.
Posted by giget on July 21, 2003, at 8:30:17
In reply to And then she blew it., posted by kara lynne on July 18, 2003, at 21:32:35
Kara,
I know that others will see this as a bad thing to say but...At least he is trying. He is trying to tell you his feelings and he is very hurt at this point, that is why he gets defencefull.
Like I said before, he will always be who he is, not what you wished he would be.
For a man to come back upset and crying says alot. He is just now realizing what he has done and what he is missing...
You will still have the upperhand if you do not call him, and let him keep on calling you. Every so often answer and act like nothing is wrong... that is where you get the upper hand. He will eventually break down and ask for you back or give up....
I am at a point of alot of pain, so please do not take this post as wrong. I long just for a day where he comes back and even tryes to be part of my life............
Sorry, ignore this post if it does not make sence.
Posted by lostsailor on July 21, 2003, at 9:16:03
In reply to Re: And then she blew it. » kara lynne, posted by giget on July 21, 2003, at 8:30:17
Posted by giget on July 21, 2003, at 9:17:58
In reply to Re: why cant docs just write scriptw for love???:( (nm), posted by lostsailor on July 21, 2003, at 9:16:03
Posted by kara lynne on July 21, 2003, at 14:02:02
In reply to Re: And then she blew it. » kara lynne, posted by giget on July 21, 2003, at 8:30:17
Dear giget,
You don't have to apologize for anything you say or feel. I understand completely.If he were really taking responsibility it would be one thing, but he seems ultimately still to want to blame me. I ask my therapist what I'm supposed to say when he throws his "there are two people here..." line at me that he always falls back on. What can you say to that? Of course there are two people here.
She says it's another gaslighting technique--that one person doesn't get to be abusive and then say "well we both have anger issues", as he is doing. And then I get all muddled as I am doing.
I keep trying to resolve something unresolve-able.
I am trying to be strong though. My instinct is to jump every time he leaves me one of those messages--although he would be quick to ignore me if he had something better to do.
It's a tough one, giget. I have no answers. I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. (((giget)))
Posted by fallsfall on July 21, 2003, at 15:19:54
In reply to Re: And then she blew it., posted by kara lynne on July 21, 2003, at 14:02:02
Posted by della on October 6, 2003, at 11:46:29
In reply to Stay Strong!!! (nm) » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on July 21, 2003, at 15:19:54
Dear Kara-Lynn
I believe I have been in the same struggle you went through or are still going through with your boyfriend. Relationships sometimes are more about power than love. The hardest thing to do is to accept that you love someone (whether they deserve it or not) and then let them go. In other words you love someone just for themselves, without trying to change them or yourself. I think that is called "unconditional love." I have struggled my whole to attain that but I still feel it's the only way to go. Best regards, Della
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