![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Miller on December 30, 2002, at 9:40:23
Ok, guys, I need some advise. (Stating the obvious, again.)
When a person has an enormous amount of guilt, how is it relieved?
If a person does not have the option to make ammends for past deeds, is there a way to repent?
If a person thinks there is a good chance that bad deeds will be repeated, will the guilt stay forever?
Thank you in advance for the advice. I think I could really use some suggestions.
-Miller
Posted by BlackSheep on December 30, 2002, at 10:20:29
In reply to Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, etc., etc. , posted by Miller on December 30, 2002, at 9:40:23
I'm in a similar boat and look forward to reading resonses to your post.
Posted by Robin David John on December 30, 2002, at 10:27:45
In reply to Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, etc., etc. , posted by Miller on December 30, 2002, at 9:40:23
> Ok, guys, I need some advise. (Stating the obvious, again.)
>
> When a person has an enormous amount of guilt, how is it relieved?
>
> If a person does not have the option to make ammends for past deeds, is there a way to repent?
>
> If a person thinks there is a good chance that bad deeds will be repeated, will the guilt stay forever?
>
> Thank you in advance for the advice. I think I could really use some suggestions.
>
> -Miller
>
> Miller my heart skipped many beats reading your most recent posts...Please forgive me if this post is out of taste for i do wish only the many blessing that you deserve.
Guilt is a very dark side of the evil that lurks spiritually ...the world is a spiritual warfare good and evil...I dont know alot about religions but I feel pretty grounded in suggesting this to you..
Somtimes depending on our background church ministers and priests prayers do not seem to be the answer..
Might I suggest a sweat hut, which is part of a cleansing of the soul which is a North American Indian custom...I dont know alot, but from native friends, they have told me it is also a renewing of the mind, heart, and soul, removing evil if one permits ...I am away from the computer for the a couple weeks after tomorrow or would check further into it for you...If you can give it a try...I have seen alcoholic and drug addict friends go through a sweat hut with incredible success...addicts become addicts because of such evil spirits called ,guilt, shame, resentment,fear,hatred, insecurity, worthlessness..and so on...these few that I know live very happy lives for many years now. They attend these pow wows once a year for renewal..its possible it would be helpful to you or anyone else that suffers the spiritual upset that can reside in us...just a thoughtRobin
Posted by bluedog on December 30, 2002, at 10:31:16
In reply to Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, etc., etc. , posted by Miller on December 30, 2002, at 9:40:23
Don't torture yourself. I have done things so shameful in the past I would not tell anyone.... ever. Sometimes attempts to repent and torturing yourself over past deeds only makes things worse.
If you don't even have the option to repent don't dwell on past misdeeds.
Bad deeds will always have a good chance of being repeated as we are all human, but I'm not sure what you EXACTLY mean about a good chance of the bad deeds being repeated. If you mean that you your bad deed is hurting or offending others, it is impossible to go through life without offending others. You can only do your best to learn from past misdeeds and make your best attempts not to repeat the SAME misdeeds.
If on the other hand you are talking about the sorts of bad deeds that Ted Bundy carried out then you are truly in trouble (PLEASE, PLEASE don't take offence at this comment as I am only using this as an EXTREME example of some bad deeds and I NEVER intentionally intend to offend anyone in my posts) I am sure that the bad deeds you are speaking of are only confirmation that you are human and therefore you are not and can not be perfect:))))
TIME is a GREAT reliever of guilt I've found. Hope this helps some.
Warm regards
bluedog
Posted by Dinah on December 30, 2002, at 10:40:49
In reply to Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, etc., etc. , posted by Miller on December 30, 2002, at 9:40:23
Miller, you really sound like me now. :) I have asked those exact same thoughts and had myself condemned, if not to eternal damnation (because I'm not sure about the afterlife) then at least to hell on earth.
Why don't you try an internet search on OCD or obsessive compulsive disorder, and scrupulosity or scrupulous or scrupulousness. Something like that. It is thought that John Wesley and Martin Luther, and a lot of other religious figures had it. Basically, with scrupulousness, you are convinced of your own sinful nature. I'm oversimplifying of course.
And why don't you talk to your therapist, or your religious leader, about why you think there is a "good chance" that bad deeds will be repeated. I could say a lot about that, because I have been thinking about it (nonstop sometimes) for many years, and I have come to a lot of conclusions (none of which would make you feel badly about the issue I assure you - I have come to a greater ability to forgive myself). But I think you should discuss this with either a religious authority, or your therapist. Therapists are very familiar with guilt and expiation of guilt. Please don't feel embarassed about telling him everything and explaining your current feelings of guilt. He won't be able to help you in that intensive course of treatment unless he has all the facts.
I hesitate to say more, because of course I can't convince you that you won't do the same things again. No one can. And I'm afraid that arguing the obsessions will just make them stronger. All this can get tangled in an obsessive loop. I know it can for me, at least. Sigh... But on the other hand, I also know that keeping the obsessions secret also strenghtens them.
Hmmm. I'll just say that my conclusions are that sometimes our brains are tricked into thinking we would do the same things over again. And sometimes it's true and that's okay. Because people generally do let people down over and over again in the same way. Haven't you noticed that about the people who hurt you? And since it's so much human nature, it must be built into the forgiveness system. :) My belief is that as long as we are trying, and moving in the right direction that that counts as making amends. Slips along the way just mean we're human. That's just the conclusion I've come to, for what it's worth.
Is there any way to contact your therapist? Have you tried SSRI's? Are you religious? I wish I could airmail my therapist to you. He hears this thing all the time, and is excellent at helping me gently untangle my thoughts and coax them from their obsessive loop. Perhaps your therapist also has that talent, or would if he knew what was going on?
At least give yourself a break until you are able to talk to your therapist. :)
With all my best wishes (and a lot of faith in you),
Dinah
PS I'm sorry about your job situation. Would your boss feel the same way about someone going in for cancer treatments, or heart bypass surgery? Trying to deal with suicidal feelings is just as lifesaving and serious. What is the labor law in your area? Is your job with a large employer?
Posted by Mr Cushing on December 30, 2002, at 11:51:21
In reply to Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, etc., etc. , posted by Miller on December 30, 2002, at 9:40:23
I've been through this to a certain extent myself in my lifetime. I've done so many bad deeds in my lifetime that I've probably forgotten more than half of them. So I would highly recommend many of the above suggestions that have been mentioned already. Therapy to get your thoughts untangled. Possibly an SSRI so that you no longer sink to such painful depths. But one of the things that I find that really helps me to forget some of the bad things I've done, when I'm stable and actually feeling pretty "normal", is by doing something good for somebody. After all, the world is built around good and evil forces, and if you do enough of both of them, don't they sort of cancel each other out?I found that that really helped me out, but furthermore, I suggested this same idea to a friend of mine that is going to trial right now for manslaughter with a few buddies. Things got completely out of hand one night with them and the end result was that somebody died. He felt so horrible about this that I suggested to him why not try to do as many good things as possible to try to overcome the guilt of some of the bad. So now he spends a lot of his time helping out others, volunteering at battered women's shelters, helping out the disabled students at his school, helping out at the hospitals, giving blood, etc. He said that this has actually made him feel like a much better person and has let him let go of a lot of the guilt that he felt after that night.
Posted by Tabitha on December 30, 2002, at 17:53:26
In reply to Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, etc., etc. , posted by Miller on December 30, 2002, at 9:40:23
Hi, I'm sorry you're suffering so much. I find I either have to forgive myself, and if I can't do that, I have to completely stop the guilt-inducing actions, and if I can't do either of those, well, I just try to be as compassionate as I can with myself. It's a struggle though.
Posted by Miller on December 30, 2002, at 18:54:45
In reply to Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, etc., etc. , posted by Miller on December 30, 2002, at 9:40:23
I guess I look at my past differently than you guys look at yours. I see my life as a scale. On one side is the bad situations I created and on the other is the good. It seems no matter how many good things I have done, the bad side ALWAYS outweighs the good.
I am afraid that I will repeat the SAME bad things I have done in the past. I don't trust myself to make thoughtful decisions. I see myself as being very weak to other peoples directions. If the directions point me to danger or evil, I still travel down that road. It's like I don't have the strength to upset someone I care for. (Whether the feeling is recipricated or not.)
I have told my therapist some of what I feel. He keeps telling me that I am a different person now. He thinks my life is going in an upward spiral. Meaning that although I can still see who I was, I am now too far past to repeat. I wish I had his kind of faith, but I don't.
I wish I could stand back and feel safe and comfortable enough to really believe what others are trying to get me to realize. But in the back of my mind, all I see is a pathetic person that is willing to do ANYTHING to be loved or accepted. So, if I get desperate enough, I would hurt others for my own gain.
As far as time goes, I really don't see how time is a great healer. Some of my more atrocious deeds were done over 15 years ago. I still can't forgive myself. Nor, do I think I should. There are some things that I have done to others that will be with them eternally. How can a person make up for that?
I have done tons of volunteer work. I give blood quite often. I try very hard to make others happy. I don't think volunteering is the answer for me. There is the selfish part of me that continues to talk inside my head, reminding me that Iam not doing volunteering for the less fortunate; but for the hopes of helping myself. So, I guess it kind of cancels it all out.
I was just hoping that someone would have the secret ingredient that would allow me some relief to the self-induced hell I put myself through. As I originally thought, I think my destiny is to be punished indefinately for being so bad as well as for knowing I would do it all again.
Thank you all again for trying to help me.
-Miller
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 30, 2002, at 19:37:11
In reply to Re: Thanks guys for trying to help, posted by Miller on December 30, 2002, at 18:54:45
Miller,
You wrote,[...hoping someone had ...secret ingrediant...releif from self induced Hell...punished for being bad... forever...].
I have experianced a Way out of The Valley of the Shadow of Death that your description reminds me of. I was once Dead, and now I am alive. But Death is not only physical. You can be dead while you are alive. It is This death that I have been describing here that I have Overcome. And if I could Overcome, so could others. Let us reason together. Though your life , now, may seem filled with the scarlet of guilt, there can be a cleansing so that the scarlet becomes washed out and your life is white as snow.
Lou
Posted by mikhail99 on December 30, 2002, at 20:18:37
In reply to Re: Thanks guys for trying to help, posted by Miller on December 30, 2002, at 18:54:45
> I guess I look at my past differently than you guys look at yours. I see my life as a scale. On one side is the bad situations I created and on the other is the good. It seems no matter how many good things I have done, the bad side ALWAYS outweighs the good.
>
> I am afraid that I will repeat the SAME bad things I have done in the past. I don't trust myself to make thoughtful decisions. I see myself as being very weak to other peoples directions. If the directions point me to danger or evil, I still travel down that road. It's like I don't have the strength to upset someone I care for. (Whether the feeling is recipricated or not.)
>
> I have told my therapist some of what I feel. He keeps telling me that I am a different person now. He thinks my life is going in an upward spiral. Meaning that although I can still see who I was, I am now too far past to repeat. I wish I had his kind of faith, but I don't.
>
> I wish I could stand back and feel safe and comfortable enough to really believe what others are trying to get me to realize. But in the back of my mind, all I see is a pathetic person that is willing to do ANYTHING to be loved or accepted. So, if I get desperate enough, I would hurt others for my own gain.
>
> As far as time goes, I really don't see how time is a great healer. Some of my more atrocious deeds were done over 15 years ago. I still can't forgive myself. Nor, do I think I should. There are some things that I have done to others that will be with them eternally. How can a person make up for that?
>
> I have done tons of volunteer work. I give blood quite often. I try very hard to make others happy. I don't think volunteering is the answer for me. There is the selfish part of me that continues to talk inside my head, reminding me that Iam not doing volunteering for the less fortunate; but for the hopes of helping myself. So, I guess it kind of cancels it all out.
>
> I was just hoping that someone would have the secret ingredient that would allow me some relief to the self-induced hell I put myself through. As I originally thought, I think my destiny is to be punished indefinately for being so bad as well as for knowing I would do it all again.
>
> Thank you all again for trying to help me.
>
> -Miller
>
>
>
Miller~I really have to concur with Dinah's suggestions about researching OCD. I think it could be one of the reasons you can't let go of it. You're therapist is someone who can objectively look at you and see how you've changed and grown. If you're in the grip of OCD, of course you're going to fear doing those things over again, of course you won't be able to see another side of things. From reading all your posts about your past, I would bet my life that if you dropped back into that scenario, you would turn your back on it. You must start looking at where you are now instead of where you've been. Those mistakes were yours to learn from but they're done and gone. You sound like a terrific, empathetic, sensitive person and you must give yourself credit for where you are today. I know it's easy for all of us to say, "Stop beating yourself up", it really doesn't work that way. Something has to happen to make you start believing in yourself and I think that can happen in therapy. I don't know where I am religion-wise all the times but I know that we are loved and forgiven and you don't have to suffer for these things anymore. If that greater power can love and forgive you, then you must do the same.Take care!
Posted by Miller on December 31, 2002, at 16:21:43
In reply to Re: Thanks guys for trying to help » Miller, posted by mikhail99 on December 30, 2002, at 20:18:37
Thank you for the words of support. I am hoping to be able to make great progress in my therapy when I get into the more "concentrated" sessions later in January. Maybe I can get some new insight there. Thank you again for your kind words.
-Miller
Posted by Miller on December 31, 2002, at 16:23:27
In reply to Re: Thanks guys for trying to help » Miller, posted by Lou Pilder on December 30, 2002, at 19:37:11
Thank you so much for believing that there is hope for me. I have my doubts. I believe that it takes a very strong person to have faith and be religious. I don't think I have the strength. Again, I thank you enough for responding to my post.
-Miller
Posted by rayww on December 31, 2002, at 19:57:33
In reply to Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, etc., etc. , posted by Miller on December 30, 2002, at 9:40:23
I just read this thread, and think you have already received much good support. I have an opinion, though it may not help.
> When a person has an enormous amount of guilt, how is it relieved?
What is the opposite of guilt? If there were four basic negative emotions where would guilt fit?
1.Fear 2.Anger 3.Sadness 4.Shame
Although you can feel all four in guilt, it belongs mainly to shame. So, without remembering your past, try to feel the emotion of shame as you are feeling it in the present. Relax, make a connection to yourself to keep you in the present by placing your hand over your heart, then get inside the emotion of shame and stay there until you feel like you are floating. Stay "inside" the emotion of shame until the pain eases up and you feel peace. There are other WHH techniques that may help you reach your shame if you can't already, but judging by your post, you are already there and ready for the work. (Peace is the opposite of guilt). Then, repeat, and peel this off in layers. You can actually get to the point after awhile, if you pay attention to bodily sensations, where you can feel it leave your body in waves. Cool.>
> If a person does not have the option to make ammends for past deeds, is there a way to repent?Of course. Faith, repentence, and forgiveness is the whole purpose of life and the atonement of Christ. As soon as you stop the negative action the atonement begins to "kick" in and you receive the power to continue. No, that is not entirely true. This kind of repenting must involve the Savior, as in asking Him to be with you and trusting in his grace along the way.
>
> If a person thinks there is a good chance that bad deeds will be repeated, will the guilt stay forever?something about forgiving 70 times 7? Never lose hope. But, yes, you will have guilt if that which you are doing is wrong. Two wrongs will never make a right no matter how a person defines it.
Desire is the biggest step. Once you have that, you are well on your way - even if you still desire two things of opposing poles.
"Of two I want the one the most,<BR>my family somewhere in between,<BR>But I am two, and both alone in me" <BR>(just part of a poem I wrote one time)
Posted by Phil on December 31, 2002, at 22:41:50
In reply to Re: Thanks guys for trying to help » Lou Pilder, posted by Miller on December 31, 2002, at 16:23:27
As far as time goes, I really don't see how time is a great healer. Some of my more atrocious deeds were done over 15 years ago. I still can't forgive myself. Nor, do I think I should. There are some things that I have done to others that will be with them eternally. How can a person make up for that? You don't have to.
_________
How do you know how long they will be affected. They may have gotten on with their lives quite well. I have no idea what you did but I've got a feeling you have company.
Here's something to do without sweating, much.
4th & 5th step of AA. In step 4, you write every bad lousy thing you have ever done in your life. Take a few weeks but hold nothing back.
Make a searching and fearless moral inventory of yourself.5.Admit to God, yourself and another human being the exact nature of your wrongs. I did this with my therapist at the time.
It's one of the most powerful tools in recovery and you may find out one thing. You aren't going to want to do it.
Do it. You have to get the garbage out. It's incredibly effective and you'll have many pages.
If your therapist is familiar with the process, it would be where I start.
_______
I still (can't) (won't) forgive myself. Nor, do I think I should.>>Feeling rotten about your past is not a positive character trait. God doesn't give points for you carrying guilt. Of course you should forgive yourself unless it's getting comfortable and has become normal to wake up daily and beat the crap out of yourself.
Say to those you can't make amends to, in your writing, what you would do to make it right if you could. Your therapist or an empty chair can be the person you've harmed. See them in front of you-say how sorry you are-how badly you've felt.
You might want a little extra time with your therapist so you might want to be the last appt of the day. Plus, you're going to look like hell when you leave.
All these suggestions are good that others have posted. Try one or all. And before you go to bed at night, look at your image in the mirror and repeat 10 times. I love you so much "Miller" and you deserve to be happy.
By the way, it takes a broken spirit to 'find' God. You know your head-He knows your heart.
I can't seem to write a short post these days. I would apologize but you don't have to read it and I'm not going to guilt myself over it. : )
You blame you. Like most of us, you're neurotic. You think it's all your fault.
There's another type person and they have a character disorder. They think everything wrong in their life was someone else's fault. You can be helped-people with character disorders feel no guilt and take no responsibility.I'm done
Posted by Miller on December 31, 2002, at 22:57:05
In reply to Re: Thanks guys for helping, I feel gratitude/hope » Miller, posted by Phil on December 31, 2002, at 22:41:50
Phil,
I am grateful that you answered my post. I did NOT stop reading it, as I was considering if I am capable of doing what you suggest.
You are right, I don't want to do it. Only because of the fear involved. Fear of what? I don't know the answer to that.
However, I will write it all out as you suggested. I will also try to muster my courage to go through it all with my psychologist. If I get the nerve, even for a second, I will already a have note ready to fax him. I can tell him in the note what I will be doing.
I can't say if it will work or if I can get the courage up, but there is a chance.
Phil, thank you very much. You advise is appreciated.
-Miller
Posted by Miller on December 31, 2002, at 23:00:28
In reply to Re: Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, Guilty, Guilt, etc., etc. » Miller, posted by rayww on December 31, 2002, at 19:57:33
Ray,
I have actually tried what you are explaining. I believe it is the same process you posted about when you first came to Pycho Babble. You provided a link, if I am not mistaken. I was unable to "get" the desired effect. It may be due to my lack of concentration right now.
Thank you for responding to my post. I will again, try your theory of getting "inside" an emotion. I think it would be better if I had a longer attention span.
-Miller
Posted by Dinah on December 31, 2002, at 23:22:09
In reply to Re: Thanks guys for helping, I feel gratitude/hope » Miller, posted by Phil on December 31, 2002, at 22:41:50
Thanks. You've got a way of wrapping a lot of wisdom with your humor. Your posts about the twelve step meetings make them seem far better than the only ones I attended were. Maybe I had bad luck. Those steps seem deep and meaningful when you describe them. I think the groupspeak of the meetings obscured that. I start looking for the exit whenever I hear groupspeak.
You've got me thinking I should try Debtors Anonymous again - maybe a different one than the one I tried before. Heaven knows I could use it.
Posted by Phil on January 1, 2003, at 7:25:53
In reply to Re: Thanks guys for helping, I feel gratitude/hope » Phil, posted by Miller on December 31, 2002, at 22:57:05
Miller, Thanks, I didn't know how I came across in the post, couldn't concentrate.
Don't even think about this yet cause you have a big challenge ahead, complete self-honesty, but anger letters are good. People call them poison pen letters, I think.
Make a list of all who you are angry at. I had 6 people and one was my father. I was neutral towards him because my parents divorced when I was 5 and I saw him once after that. He really didn't belong on the list...I thought.
I saved his for last, woke up on a Sunday morning, and commenced to write 8 pages of fury. I had tears pouring out till I was exhausted. Reading that to my therapist was one of the hardest things I've had to do.
My therapist had me write at the top of each 'letter'-God guides my hand and helps me write what I need to write.
Phil
ps.. I feel like I should thank you.
Posted by Phil on January 1, 2003, at 7:44:22
In reply to Re: Hey, Phil..., posted by Dinah on December 31, 2002, at 23:22:09
Dinah, I know that group would be helpful but I haven't gone to a meeting yet. I know people who went and had good results.
All meetings are different. My home group was very comfortable for me. There were times I've felt God's presence like never before-no church ever came close.
Something about the dead on honesty of the people and the hurt that they were feeling just brought swells of tears to my eyes.
There are tons of groups and not all fit well with me but there were several that did.
When my mom died in '93, she had 18 years in the program. I went to one meeting after that and someone brought up loss. When I tried to talk, all I got out was that I had lost my mother two weeks ago.... I tried to never really lose it in a meeting but I failed that day.
Thanks for your kindness
Phil
Posted by Miller on January 1, 2003, at 9:44:48
In reply to Re: Thanks guys for helping, I feel gratitude/hope » Miller, posted by Phil on January 1, 2003, at 7:25:53
Hi Phil,
I know you are right about everything that lies ahead of me. In fact, I am such a "planner" that I need to visualize what may be coming up or I will work myself into such anxiety, I won't be able to function.
Phil, I have no idea why you would think you would want to thank me for anything. It seems to me that you are one of the most "together" on this board. You reply honestly and effectively. I haven't been able to contribute constructive advise as of yet. At this point, I am a taker. I do have hopes (right now I hope) that someday I too, will be a giver.
Thank you again Phil. I appreciate your help.
-Miller
Posted by Phil on January 1, 2003, at 17:37:01
In reply to Re: Thanks guys for helping, I feel gratitude/hope » Phil, posted by Miller on January 1, 2003, at 9:44:48
I thank you because being able to share something with someone is good for me.
It also reminds me that, since it's been years, it wouldn't hurt me to do some writing and talking. I hardly leave my apt but seem to inflict damage anyway.They probably deserved it. hahahha
ps...I thought about what we talked about last night and today. When I had the energy for relationships, either she or I would break up. A relationship now is having coffee..that's not that good.
Anyway, regardless of who done who wrong, I always worried about the woman. That was my first mistake. I was always the one hanging on for dear life and the ex was going out with friends, etc. I projected my feelings onto them and even sometimes wanted to help them because as long as I try helping them, I don't have to try to help me.
Posted by Miller on January 2, 2003, at 8:34:27
In reply to Re: Thanks guys for helping, I feel gratitude/hope » Miller, posted by Phil on January 1, 2003, at 17:37:01
Phil,
Yeah, I can relate. It seems the more I try to make a relationship work, the worse it gets. All the while, it is me who suffers most.
I think you have some very wise insights. You seem to always think through things before giving advise. I guess I am glad that I am the recipiant of your knowledge and experience.
This is the end of the thread.
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