![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on November 13, 2002, at 8:38:37
In reply to Re: Manson vs. Bush..so true :-) » Roman, posted by jay on November 13, 2002, at 0:06:03
While I realize that our President is not supported by everyone, and he's not on my list of all-time favorite presidents either, the intensity of what's being said here on this entire thread is of a nature that I feel compelled to say something in his defense.
I don't think that there is sufficient evidence to make personal judgements about the motivations of the man or his basic pathology. I see no particular resemblence to Manson. I don't think I'd go so far as to use the word despicable to describe him. I have no evidence that he cheats, lies, or intimidates, or that his goal is merely to obtain power. His actions are easily explained by a set of personal convictions - convictions that are not necessarily shared by everyone. But that is true of most presidents, most people.
He is our duly and lawfully elected president. Whether the electoral college is outdated and should be replaced with a simple majority of the popular vote is a legitimate one. And I think those of us who think it is outmoded (and who are citizens of the United States of course) should contact our legislators about amending it.
Most of the Americans I know are not among the very rich. Some like him and some don't, but very few of them think the president is making their lives "horrible". Some have concerns about his foreign policy, or his domestic policy, or both. Pretty standard I think, and I remember that being true for every president who has served me. I do realize that emotions are running high due to the possibility of war. Nobody likes war.
I realize that as a moderate on the conservative side, that my opinions are in the minority here. I have no wish to enter into a political debate. I have no wish to inflame passions, or to jeopardize support and friendship over something like politics. I think it wisest of me to ignore the political threads. However, it just didn't seem right to me to say nothing in this particular case.
Dinah
Posted by wharfrat on November 13, 2002, at 8:50:13
In reply to Manson vs. Bush, posted by Roman on November 12, 2002, at 23:08:21
> This just occurred to me:
>
> There is a similarity in affect between George Bush and Charles Manson.
>
> Huh.There is also a connection with the names Roman Polanski and Charles Manson.
Interesting eh?
Posted by Phil on November 13, 2002, at 10:24:53
In reply to Re: President Bush, posted by Dinah on November 13, 2002, at 8:38:37
Dinah, I agree 100% with all you've said.
If I say more, I'll be blocked again.
Posted by Dinah on November 13, 2002, at 10:36:29
In reply to Re: President Bush » Dinah, posted by Phil on November 13, 2002, at 10:24:53
Posted by sjb on November 13, 2002, at 10:59:45
In reply to Re: Manson vs. Bush » Roman, posted by IsoM on November 13, 2002, at 0:57:53
The environment is going down the toilet.
Posted by Roman on November 13, 2002, at 13:00:06
In reply to Re: Manson vs. Bush » Roman, posted by IsoM on November 13, 2002, at 0:57:53
Well, let's see how well I can verbalize my observations:
1) Both of them tend to smirk during serious discource--very disconcerting.
2) They appear to be uncomfortable with direct, incoming eye-contact, yet use piercing, cold stares when attempting to make a point to others.
3) Both are somewhat uneasy with self-presentation (body language, emotional expressiveness, etc). My interpretation: they fear their own truthful disclosure; it feels to me as if they expend a great deal of energy concealing unacceptable behavior.
4) Neither handle situations which require unscripted speech very well. My interpretation: see item #3 above.
I'm sure I'll come up with a few more.
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 13, 2002, at 13:18:18
In reply to Re: Welcome back, Phil :) (nm) » Phil, posted by Dinah on November 13, 2002, at 10:36:29
More of a question really,
I am in wholehearted agreement with people questioning every aspect of their "leaders"
I believe if this had been done in other cases, perhaps horrific tragedies could have been averted. I mean this on a small scale as well, whether it be priests, or uncles given 'deserved respect" Mothers... well you get the picture.In my world it would be considered appropriate, encouraged actually everywhere. But, as I've come to accept, this isn't my world.
So... is it disturbing to more people than it is interesting to here?
I'm not sure what I'm asking, could someone who gets what I'm saying, delineate that last line for me please????Gabbix2
Posted by sjb on November 13, 2002, at 13:19:41
In reply to Re: Manson vs. Bush » IsoM, posted by Roman on November 13, 2002, at 13:00:06
How about that way he leans on the lectern while he's speaking saying things, like, "We're gonna get 'im."? Uh, looks like bin laden still around dubya, but your advisors think of a swell plan: Let's invade Iraq. Hope his advisors also told him where it is. Gee, folks will forget about the economy, corporate reform, and the desruction of the environment to please your oil friends.
BTW - I think Laura's eyes are Satan-like. Better stop or I'll be blocked.
Great piece by Ben Stein today. Some excerpts:
"Drill for oil in Malibu."
"Drill for oil in Central Park, NY."
"Knock down historic Georgetown .. . and put in stock car raceway."
"Drill for oil in Aspen."
"Require pheasant hunting proficiency as a condition of getting a driver's license."
Posted by Dinah on November 13, 2002, at 14:05:49
In reply to Re: Manson vs. Bush » IsoM, posted by Roman on November 13, 2002, at 13:00:06
I hope you never have reason to interpret my character from my mannerisms. My eyes are far too close together, which may at first appear shifty, I'm sure, but is merely an unfortunate genetic trait inherited from my extremely upright and honorable ancestors.
I seldom make eye contact and often look slightly past people while speaking. That has often been considered snobby of me, and could be also seen as a sign of deceit, but actually stems from a discomfort with face to face dealings with others.
And from my recollections of Charles Manson at his trial, his stare bears no resemblence to any facial expression of Mr. Bush.
Posted by Dinah on November 13, 2002, at 14:10:50
In reply to Re: Manson vs. Bush, posted by sjb on November 13, 2002, at 13:19:41
>
> BTW - I think Laura's eyes are Satan-like. Better stop or I'll be blocked.
>I do beg your pardon? Satan? Laura Bush seems like a lovely lady to me, and it is difficult to subject yourself and your family to the White House. I respect her consistent dignity and grace.
Posted by jane d on November 13, 2002, at 14:13:10
In reply to Re: Manson vs. Bush » IsoM, posted by Roman on November 13, 2002, at 13:00:06
Oops. You just described me. :)
Posted by Dinah on November 13, 2002, at 14:18:31
In reply to Re: President Bush, posted by Dinah on November 13, 2002, at 8:38:37
I wasn't all that crazy about our former President Clinton, but I didn't stay quiet if anyone said he was the Antichrist or evil, or anything of the sort. I might have laughed at a few sex or honesty jokes, but I didn't think that he was out to destroy America or do any harm to the country or our citizens.
I think there is a big difference between a discussion of policy, and scrutinizing people in authority, and a personal attack.
One of the things I like about this forum, and the only particularly supportive thing I can find about the discussion of politics on it, is that we can challenge our perceptions of others with different viewpoints. No, not all conservatives are cold hearted greedy monsters. No, not all liberals are...well, I'm not going to go there, since I can't claim membership. We're all people who want the best for our country and for each other and just have different views of how best to achieve these joint goals. And it is the perfect forum for deciding that political viewpoints can be debated and we can agree to disagree while still respecting each other and our motives.
Or at least I hope so.
Dinah
Posted by IsoM on November 13, 2002, at 14:42:49
In reply to Re: Manson vs. Bush » Roman, posted by Dinah on November 13, 2002, at 14:05:49
Dinah, my reasons for finding George Bush a despicable individual has nothing to do with appearance. Because I have a son with Asperger who has trouble making eye contact, I know that judging a person's qualities by how they look or behave is a very poor method of gauging who they are & what their values are.
My reasons are much, much more complex - based on a person's words & actions. I had no idea of the vehemence that would start with this thread & say would like to do what I preach on these boards - add a moderating voice to prevent this thread from running amok.
I’m basically apolitical. What Lord Acton, that famous historian said is very true “The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to to govern. Every class is unfit to govern...Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." I sincerely believe that.
With that in mind, I’m going to refrain from saying anything more. Telling others that their views are wrong or descending to slurs about those one disagrees with produces no tangible benefits, only causes more strife. That wasn’t my intention. I was only curious to see what Roman found similar between the two.
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 13, 2002, at 15:10:39
In reply to Re: Manson vs. Bush - moderating view » Dinah, posted by IsoM on November 13, 2002, at 14:42:49
It may not have been a direct answer to my plea.
But thats exactly what I was trying to say,
(omitting the obvious personal description of your family.
Posted by Dinah on November 13, 2002, at 16:57:54
In reply to Re: Manson vs. Bush - moderating view » Dinah, posted by IsoM on November 13, 2002, at 14:42:49
I obviously haven't made great strides with that Don Quixote problem I have. Believe me, it's not particularly a political issue. I get in just as much trouble with conservatives for objecting to hyperbole about Clinton and Phil Donahue as I do with liberals about Bush and Limbaugh. Not to mention all the trouble I get over similar non-political things.
I apologize for any lack of moderation to which my contributions on this thread may have contributed. And thank you.
Posted by Phil on November 13, 2002, at 18:08:59
In reply to Re: President Bush » Dinah, posted by Phil on November 13, 2002, at 10:24:53
Posted by IsoM on November 13, 2002, at 18:15:44
In reply to Re: Sorry :( » IsoM, posted by Dinah on November 13, 2002, at 16:57:54
Apology accepted except I didn't see a need for you to apologise in the first place. I only wanted to add a moderating tone to this thread before it went ballistic. As Beardy has said, we've all agreed to disagree without feeling that we're personally attacking one another. I think you know me enough, Dinah, that while I have very strong views & opinions, I do try to temper them with tact & consideration for others.
Posted by Dinah on November 13, 2002, at 18:33:43
In reply to Re: Sorry :( » Dinah, posted by IsoM on November 13, 2002, at 18:15:44
>I think you know me enough, Dinah, that while I have very strong views & opinions, I do try to temper them with tact & consideration for others.
Posted by Roman on November 13, 2002, at 18:47:57
In reply to Re: Manson vs. Bush » Roman, posted by wharfrat on November 13, 2002, at 8:50:13
>
> There is also a connection with the names Roman Polanski and Charles Manson.
>
> Interesting eh?
>Yes, indeed it is. And you're absolutely right!
Here's another clever factoid for your archive:
There's 'a connection with the names' Roman Polanski and Roman from Psycho-Babble.
Now we're really getting somewhere, don't you think? I wonder what it all means.
Posted by GeekUKII on November 13, 2002, at 18:59:50
In reply to Re: Manson vs. Bush » wharfrat, posted by Roman on November 13, 2002, at 18:47:57
One is a large house and the other is a drug that gets you stoned...... hard to pick between the two. If I had a mansion then I guess I could grow a lot of bush in the grounds but I guess thats picking both. How about a nice suburban house and a steady import of bush from the contenent....so I guess I am picking bush over a mansion. However I would pick a mansion over being gore'd by a bull. so it runs bush -> mansion -> gore. end of my story
M
Posted by jay on November 14, 2002, at 0:35:59
In reply to Re: Manson vs. Bush » Roman, posted by Dinah on November 13, 2002, at 14:05:49
OK...I believe Bush has very, very little empathy, a trait shared by serial killers and, in my view, most conservatives. I am sorry, but I don't see how you can go through living with a mental illness, and believe in/follow a political line of thought that is all about a "..screw you..me, me , me" attitude...a person and party that *denies* people the universal right to health care (and mental health care)...a party that *denies* the connection between poverty and mental illness. Are you a millionaire by any chance? If not...Bush + Co. are out to use you and the middle and lower class to ride out on the backs of, and NOT give two cares if you die because of malnutrition, suicide, lack of medical care..etc.There are politics behind mental health care, and a recent op-ed piece in the NY Times, written by a Republican, claimed that only people with, what they claim, are "extreme..legitimate mental illness..like schizophrenia.." should ONLY get ANY type of mental health care (that is paid for by insurers.)
If you want my references, I will gladly post them. I am also not saying the Democrats are much better, but the right-wing fascist politics taking place in 'mainstream' modern-day U.S.A. are very, very frightening. No wonder so much of the world hates the country.
/rant
Jay
Posted by jay on November 14, 2002, at 0:55:32
In reply to Re: Manson vs. Bush - moderating view » Dinah, posted by IsoM on November 13, 2002, at 14:42:49
> Dinah, my reasons for finding George Bush a despicable individual has nothing to do with appearance. Because I have a son with Asperger who has trouble making eye contact, I know that judging a person's qualities by how they look or behave is a very poor method of gauging who they are & what their values are.
>
> My reasons are much, much more complex - based on a person's words & actions. I had no idea of the vehemence that would start with this thread & say would like to do what I preach on these boards - add a moderating voice to prevent this thread from running amok.
>
> I’m basically apolitical. What Lord Acton, that famous historian said is very true “The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to to govern. Every class is unfit to govern...Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." I sincerely believe that.IsoM:
As a friend, and a former Premier of Ontario used to say (a twist on the Acton quote..) "..Powerlessness tends to corrupt, and absolute powerlessness corrupts absolutely."
Or, as one of my hero's, Ralph Nader said.."If you aren't turned onto politics, politics will turn on you."
Jay
Posted by Dinah on November 14, 2002, at 1:07:10
In reply to Re: Manson vs. Bush (And politics of health..) » Dinah, posted by jay on November 14, 2002, at 0:35:59
>
> OK...I believe Bush has very, very little empathy, a trait shared by serial killers and, in my view, most conservatives.Ummm. Thank you. Blink blink. I'm not quite sure what to say, as a conservative leaning moderate, to being compared to a serial killer. Perhaps I misunderstood your intent. Oh, most conservatives. Hmmm. Well quite a few of my friends, family and aquaintances are conservatives, and I assure you that most of them have more empathy than serial killers.
> Are you a millionaire by any chance?
Why no, actually.
> If not...Bush + Co. are out to use you and the middle and lower class to ride out on the backs of, and NOT give two cares if you die because of malnutrition, suicide, lack of medical care..etc.
>
Hmmm. Is that right? The entire middle and lower class, or individuals? I think he might notice if most of the country died off...
> No wonder so much of the world hates the country.
>
Again, Jay, thank you. That's a pity, because we here in the US are rather fond of our northern neighbor.> /rant
>
> Jay
Posted by Phil on November 14, 2002, at 6:39:36
In reply to Re: Manson vs. Bush - moderating view, posted by jay on November 14, 2002, at 0:55:32
Someone sent this to me. Comments?
"The Americans" - Original Script
Original Real Audio"LET'S BE PERSONAL" Broadcast June 5, 1973 CFRB, Toronto, Ontario
Topic: "The Americans"
The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people in all the earth.
As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtze. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did.
They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the Misssissippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries into help... Managua Nicaragua is one of the most recent examples. So far this spring, 59 American communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped.
The Marshall Plan .. the Truman Policy .. all pumped billions upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now, newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent war-mongering Americans.
I'd like to see one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes.
Come on... let's hear it! Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar or the Douglas 107? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or women on the moon?
You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times ... and safely home again. You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everyone to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, most of them ... unless they are breaking Canadian laws .. are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.
When the Americans get out of this bind ... as they will... who could blame them if they said 'the hell with the rest of the world'. Let someone else buy the Israel bonds, Let someone else build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that won't shake apart in earthquakes.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble.
Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.
I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug, self-righteous Canadians. And finally, the American Red Cross was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning that it was broke.
This year's disasters .. with the year less than half-over… has taken it all and nobody...but nobody... has helped.
ORIGINAL SCRIPT AND AUDIO
COURTESY STANDARD BROADCASTING CORPORATION LTD.(c) 1973 BY GORDON SINCLAIR
PUBLISHED BY STAR QUALITY MUSIC (SOCAN)
A DIVISION OF UNIDISC MUSIC INC.
578 HYMUS BOULEVARD
POINTE-CLAIRE, QUEBEC,
CANADA, H9R 4T2Original Real Audio
Original page link where this material comes from "The Americans"
(as researched and sent to us by Nick Paris)
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 14, 2002, at 8:34:26
In reply to Re: Manson vs. Bush (And politics of health..) » Dinah, posted by jay on November 14, 2002, at 0:35:59
> I believe Bush has very, very little empathy, a trait shared by serial killers and, in my view, most conservatives. I am sorry, but I don't see how you can go through living with a mental illness, and believe in/follow a political line of thought that is all about a "..screw you..me, me , me" attitude...
Please respect the views of others (even if you think they're wrong), be sensitive to their feelings, and don't be sarcastic, exaggerate or overgeneralize, or post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down. If you're interested in how someone can live with a mental illness and have certain political views, maybe ask them?
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.