![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by bluedog on November 13, 2002, at 2:06:16
I regret that I ever let my employer know that I suffer from depression?
I know that I am now viewed as somehow tainted or defective...in other words I'm seen as damaged goods.
Considering that depression is now almost as common as the common cold, WHY, WHY, WHY is it that employers (and society in general) views depression so differently to the common cold or to physical illness in general. I mean I'm not a crazed madman like hannibal lector who's going to eat their grandmother for breakfast.
I feel as though my illness has been put into the same category that employers put lepracy or HIV infection into.
At first I thought my employer understood my illness but it is becoming increasingly apparent that despite what my employer says, in their actions it is apparent that they are very hollow words indeed.
I have been on extended sick leave due to my illness. My employer rang me about when I was coming back to work. Basically I was made to feel that I was making things very difficult for them and that their difficulties were my fault. I was told that the uncertainty of my condition was not fair on the remaining employees and further that they considered that It would have been courteous on my part to keep the management regularly updated on the progress of my condition (In other word I was discourteous for merely ringing to let them know that I was ill and that my doctor has given me till such and such a date off work) I was truly made to feel like getting depression was my fault due to some failing on my part. I have never heard my employer blame anyone for catching a cold or that a cold was due to some failing on the part of the employee. In fact they sent flowers and get well soon wishes to another employee who was on extended leave with a PHYSICAL condition.
My pdoc suggested that when I go back to work that I initially take Wednesdays off to break the week up. My manager genuinely could not understand why my doc would suggest such a thing.
I'm certain that if it wasn't for labour and anti-discrimination laws that my employer would really prefer to get rid of me rather than have someone who is percieved as unstable on board as a liabilty to "the Team"Has anyone had similar experiences and can anyone give me a clue as to why depression (or mental illness in general) continues to be viewed in such an unhealthy way in our society??
This call from my employer has gotten me pretty down and has not been beneficial to my recovery at all.
Thanks already for any replies
Posted by IsoM on November 13, 2002, at 2:36:32
In reply to WHY discriminate? depression vs common cold, posted by bluedog on November 13, 2002, at 2:06:16
Sorry I can't offer any real encouragement but I can offer a bit of insight. Some of what I've learned is the view that depression in employees is a liability due to:
- more time is lost from depression than common infections like colds & time = money
- if there's a benefit package offered for med coverage, psychotropic meds are some of the most expensive, therefore greater money loss for the company (or union)
- stupid assumption that depressed employees may commit suicide - again loss for the company
- stupid assumption that depressed employees are less stable & no one knows if they're likely to go postal
- a depressed employee can't give the company their "all" & wouldn't work as hard as someone without depression would
- and finally, the old stigma of anybody with a mental disorder is still considered "crazy" even by employers who have had depression problems themselves. It's why so many are afraid to admit to ever having problems.
Mental disorders are still thought to be a sign of personality & character weakness. After all, they reason, it's nobody's fault if they pick up a virus. But if one's depressed, it must mean they have poor self-control, poor coping skills, & are too mentally lazy to pull themselves out of their "blue spells". They must be wallowing in it, hoping for sympathy.
Yes, many still think that way. It's one reason I WON'T hide the fact I've had problems with depression. I know it's a little silly but I consider it my duty to inform & educate as many as possible that depression has nothing to do with weakness. I'm very adamant in letting others know it but as gently as possible.
Posted by bluedog on November 13, 2002, at 3:46:48
In reply to Re: WHY discriminate? depression vs common cold » bluedog, posted by IsoM on November 13, 2002, at 2:36:32
>
> It's one reason I WON'T hide the fact I've had problems with depression. I know it's a little silly but I consider it my duty to inform & educate as many as possible that depression has nothing to do with weakness. I'm very adamant in letting others know it but as gently as possible.
>
Thanks for that Iso. Funny how you lose insight when your depressed and it takes someone else to point out that you SHOULD NOT feel ashamed for suffering from depression. I will take on board your advice and consider this as an opportunity to try and raise my employers awareness about depression and it's effects.Do you think the following would be a valid reason to add to your list
-By putting their heads in the sand employers can deny that the workplace and work practices can in some (many?) instances contribute towards depression? In other words a depressed employee can actually be a reflection on poor management practices that they would care not to admit to. In other words an employee becoming depressed can be percieved at some unconscious level as a personal attack on the employer.
And of course to protect themselves, they counter the percieved threat by discriminating against those with depression in extremely subtle and not so subtle ways that would never occur in relation to physical illnesses. In other words they place the blame for depression with the employee..it is always a failing of the employee if they become depressed. Just a thought!!
It is just so unfortunate that in todays workplace employees are just viewed as a necessary evil to be tolerated as best as possible by management as a means to an end.I mean CEO's nowadays get million dollar bonuses for getting rid of thousands of employees at a time and this attitude has permeated into every nook and cranny of the modern workplace.
Posted by IsoM on November 13, 2002, at 6:02:58
In reply to Re: WHY discriminate? depression vs common cold, posted by bluedog on November 13, 2002, at 3:46:48
The reason you've mentioned is another excellent one - not having to admit part of the blame & accept responsibility for their role in employee depression. By pointing out that many other employees seem fine (as compared to one like you), they need to do little to change. Much like those who claim 2nd hand smoke isn't dangerous as there's many who never get cancer by breathing it. As I said, I only offered some possible reasons.
If you wish to get through to management (no guarantee they won't shove their heads deeper into the sand), it's best to get somebody else backing you up like your doctor. Or check to see if any national or governmental depression groups/agencies have booklets or brochures advocating work place mental safety. This sort of thing will take part of the onus off your employer but still encourage improvement. If you place the blame squarely on their shoulders, they'd be less willing to make changes - a way of saving face for them while accomplishing your goals.
This site from Business.com has a good list of links to articles & other organizations that stress mental health in the workplace:
http://www.business.com/directory/human_resources/workplace_health_and_safety/mental_health/
Here are some sites with suggestions for employers to consider:
http://www.workplacementalhealth.org/managers.htm
And something from the UK as I’m not sure what country you’re from:
http://www.nelh.nhs.uk/nsf/mentalhealth/whatworks/knowhow/workplace-cfa.htmBy getting through to where it matters to employers (money & profit), you're more likely to get them to make changes.
Posted by jyl on November 13, 2002, at 11:06:36
In reply to Re: WHY discriminate? depression vs common cold, posted by bluedog on November 13, 2002, at 3:46:48
i am having such a hard time at being the family's
dirty little secret.
my mother is telling everyone i have a thyroid condition and would not visit me inthe hospital or bring my kids to see me.
its gunna be one happy christmas...
i dont even know what to say to people?
jyl
Posted by Miller on November 13, 2002, at 11:29:15
In reply to WHY discriminate? depression vs common cold, posted by bluedog on November 13, 2002, at 2:06:16
I really don't agree that anyone else is "partly responsible" for the depression of another. If we want others to recognize depression and metal illness as a disease such as diabetes is, we also must. If an employee has cancer or diabetes, very few people would blame poor working conditions for that.
If we didn't suffer from depression we would have such a hard time adapting to the working conditions we find so intolerable right now?
Just a thought. Our disease sucks and there are no easy answers.
-Miller
Posted by IsoM on November 13, 2002, at 15:07:54
In reply to Re: Disagree but don't want to cause a rift, posted by Miller on November 13, 2002, at 11:29:15
I'm glad you disagreed as that's how discussions progress. I just want to bring something to your attention...
You wrote "If an employee has cancer... very few people would blame poor working conditions for that." But that's because the dangers of many working conditions were spoken about & brought to the public’s attention & laws were enacted changing the dangers in the workplace. Asbestos used in building construction, not to mention mining it, caused a form of lung cancer called mesothelioma.
In the early 80s, it was estimated that 4% of all cancers in the US were caused by exposure to carcinogenics in the workplace (from the American Cancer Society). It’s declined since then due to laws forcing changes in workplace safety. But decades ago, that number was much greater. It’s now realized that certain chemicals (e.g., benzene, nickel compounds, vinyl chloride), dusts (e.g., leather or wood dusts, silica, asbestos), pesticides (e.g., ethylene oxide, chlorophenoxyl herbicides), radiation (e.g., sunlight, radon gas, industrial, medical, or other exposure to ionizing radiation), and industrial processes (e.g., aluminum production, iron and steel founding, underground mining with exposure to uranium or radon) can be causes of cancer.
When the notion that the workplace can also contribute to depression in those more susceptible (like cancer in those more genetically susceptible), then needed changes can be made & laws enacted. If it wasn't a problem, then there wouldn't be the governmental agencies that deal with it, but there's many.
Posted by Miller on November 13, 2002, at 15:40:33
In reply to Re: Disagree but don't want to cause a rift » Miller, posted by IsoM on November 13, 2002, at 15:07:54
I hear what you are saying, but I don't see how a work environment could effect the ability to fend off depression or not. My thought is that depression is a mental disorder or an event related condition (such as divorce or death). Let's ignor the event-related part. How would a change in the working conditions contribute to the struggle to be well? Of course, it would be great if employers would understand what we are going through. It would also be cool if employers would be more understanding, but to share the blame of the cause? ...
Posted by IsoM on November 13, 2002, at 18:12:28
In reply to Re: Disagree but don't want to cause a rift-IsoM, posted by Miller on November 13, 2002, at 15:40:33
This isn't my area of expertise so I may not always use the proper terminology. I don't profess to know lots about this either but I can point out a few possibilities, so please be patient with any errors.
1. It's known that physical activity, exercise, goes a long way to improving depression. Any workplace where an employee spends hours & hours in a stationary position, perhaps bent over a computer, could benefit their employees by providing more frequent breaks and/or an exercise room or cheap membership in a gym close by. People who may normally be more active could find themselves more depressed by inactivity without being aware why. Not all are affected to the same degree but all would benefit from increased physical activity.
2. Workplaces structured in a manner where those low in ranking receive the lion’s share of the blame but are powerless to provide feedback for improving matters can bring about depression among these employees. It’s based on evidence that feelings of hopelessness & depression arise when a person feels powerless, when they have no control or power to change a certain situation. Finding a different job is rarely an option for those who find themselves in low-paying jobs. Telling people to upgrade their training isn’t always practical either. Just one example below -
There was a young man in a few of my computer classes who seemed ill-suited for such classes. In talking with him, I found he used to have a job in forestry but as the industry was being down-sized, he was offered training in computers, a field that’s viewed as rapidly expanding. Hew was eager to try it. Unfortunately, it was a choice unsuited for him. He soon dropped out as it was beyond his ability to understand the complexities of computers needed for a job in that field. At times, I’m appalled at the level of training needed sometimes for even minimum wage jobs – training often costing more than these persons can afford.
3. Workplaces that pile a great deal of responsibility & work load on certain people in an effort to cut back (downsizing) & save money need to rethink such policies. Such employees suffer burn-out (often characterized by depression) & end up costing companies far more in the long run.
Here in BC Canada, nurses have a very heavy workload. Their annual income is surprisingly a lot, but I found out that it’s due to the cut-backs on hospitals by government cuts, forcing nurses to work staggering hours of over-time. It’s all the over-time that’s boosted their income but not because they want to. Nurses who refuse over-time are often found out of a job, or undue pressure is put on them to work impossibly long hours. Burn-out is recognized in many other jobs as a real problem too.
These are just three considerations off the top of my head. If I did some checking, I’m sure there are many more that could be shown. Yes, depression is a mental disorder that has a chemical imbalance of the brain to blame. But think for a moment – we’re very much bags of constantly changing & fluctuating chemicals. These changes are VERY much affected by the environment. That’s how we work. It’s obvious that certain changes in our surroundings affect us easily. High temperatures cause our body to adjust to prevent us from overheating. This adjustment comes from subtle changes in our body chemistry. Danger causes changes too – adrenaline levels sharply rise, heart beat increases, blood flow to the extremities lessen, but this happens from something far less tangible – the perception of fear. So too with unnecessary stresses in the workplace. Long-term stress, especially without hope of resolve, causes chemical changes in the body & brain that lead to depression in EVERYONE if severe enough & lasting long enough. But it will show first in individuals who are more genetically sensitive. Yes, I believe (& so do many others) that workplaces can contribute to depression – even causing it in people who previously showed no signs of it.
If this wasn’t true, the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services, the National Health Information Center, the National Institutes of Health, the International Labour Organization, & many more organizations & governmental agencies wouldn’t be taking such a close look at this issue & how to deal with it. I don't mind you questioning the concept of depression caused by poor working conditions at all, but do wish to point out some ideas for you to think over & hopefully, look into further on your own.
Posted by bluedog on November 14, 2002, at 0:59:48
In reply to Re: Disagree but don't want to cause a rift, posted by Miller on November 13, 2002, at 11:29:15
Miller
Don't worry, your not going to cause any rift.
What you have caused is a good discussion.I have to say that I disagree with what you have to say and agree with what IsoM has to say in his last post.
Consider for a moment what many people would consider the absolute extreme of a stressful
workplace.Consider the plight of the slaves in the South in American history. You could probably point to a very high level of depression within the slave populations.
Could you in all honesty say that you don't think that the slaves incidence of depression (along with other stress relates physical illness) was not caused by their working conditions? I know that the slave masters certainly would not have considered that they in any way contributed to a slave who suffered from depression. I am almost certain that they would have had the following explanations for a slave suffering from depression.
1. A depressed slave is very costly to the slave master because the slaves productivity would obviously decline.
2. A depressed slave is only putting it on to attract sympathy or to avoid working hard. This is because slaves were viewed as inherently lazy. How could the fact that the slaves had a lazy nature posibbly be attributed to the slave masters? They considered it to be a genetic failing of the slaves.
3. Slaves were also considered genetically weak and defective at approximately the same level of development as monkeys and apes. Of course it was this genetic weakness that caused the any depression in a slave and certainly was not the fault of the slave masters who felt secure in the knowledge that they were genetically superior to their slaves.
The above of course is an example of the most extreme working conditions that you could possibly find, and no workplace in any of the developed countries can operate like that under law. However you have to consider the attitude of some employers (the fast food industry comes to mind) and I'm sure that these employers look with a certain fondness to the conditions that the slave masters were allowed to impose.If you disagree that some employers would like to impose such conditions on their employees you only need look at the disgraceful behaviour of companies like NIKE who move production off-shore to third world "sweatshops".
Basically, the attitude of some CEO's and employers and their greed and profit at all costs view of the world (so that they will get their million dollar bonuses at the end of the year) can definitely lead to working conditions that actually CAUSE depression.
Just my humble opinion
Posted by IsoM on November 14, 2002, at 1:20:33
In reply to Consider the worst working conditions possible!!! » Miller, posted by bluedog on November 14, 2002, at 0:59:48
Posted by bluedog on November 14, 2002, at 1:47:55
In reply to Funny!! IsoM (that's me) is a her, not him ^_^ (nm) » bluedog, posted by IsoM on November 14, 2002, at 1:20:33
That IS funny Iso. You have the adavantage of a handle that can be interpreted as male or female (like Chris or Robin)or at least appeared so to me.
keep well
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.