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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on October 15, 2002, at 8:29:03
In reply to migraines, etc. » bookgurl99, posted by BeardedLady on October 15, 2002, at 7:47:15
All good advice, but so hard to give up caffeine. It's the only thing that gets me out of bed in the down times.
I also get misled, I think, by the fact that sometimes I can do just about anything and not have any bad effects. Other times a flickering overhead light in a store will incapacitate me. If there was a direct cause and effect, it would be easier to make wise choices.
When I get a bit of time to be able to commit to what I'm sure is a lot of homework, I want to try an MD in our area who uses non drug therapy for migraines. She does biofeedback etc. The OTC meds just aren't working well anymore and I'm sure are the cause of some liver enzymes that are coming back elevated. I'm sure she'll insist on caffeine elimination and dietary changes as well. Sigh.
Posted by BeardedLady on October 15, 2002, at 8:58:16
In reply to Re: migraines, etc. » BeardedLady, posted by Dinah on October 15, 2002, at 8:29:03
It is very easy to eliminate caffeine. If I can do it, you can! I used to drink three 2-liter bottles of diet coke every day of my life. I also drank coffee. My job (as a coffee reviewer) would also take me to late-night cappuccino joints, where I'd drink two double caps and go home to bed with no trouble at all.
Those days are over.
When my neurologist said to quit caffeine, he wasn't kidding. He didn't want to talk to me until I was caffeine free. And so, though I had already cut back to one cup of coffee in the morning and one diet coke at lunch or dinner, I tapered off for two weeks, and then I was off. No coffee. No soda. No real difference.
I think you should give it a try. Flickering lights set me off, too. Or should I say USED TO.
Take a super B while you're doing it, in the morning, so that you don't notice. But start tapering. Drink less and less, or mix a larger ratio of decaf with your regular coffee. You won't get a withdraw headache, and your migraines will decrease.
You said you needed a goal. Here it is. And it will make a serious difference in your life.
beardy
Posted by Dinah on October 15, 2002, at 9:29:23
In reply to Re: migraines, etc. » Dinah, posted by BeardedLady on October 15, 2002, at 8:58:16
I'll do it. My internist wants me to give up the biggie sodas that are the main source of my caffeine anyway. High triglycerides. Scowl.
I've been cutting down on them and I'll try giving them up. You're right. The headache doctor probably won't treat me unless I do.
But I don't know what's going to keep me going to work on my stuporous days.
Posted by BeardedLady on October 15, 2002, at 9:41:36
In reply to Re: migraines, etc. » BeardedLady, posted by Dinah on October 15, 2002, at 9:29:23
Posted by BeardedLady on October 15, 2002, at 9:42:15
In reply to Re: migraines, etc. » BeardedLady, posted by Dinah on October 15, 2002, at 9:29:23
Posted by Dinah on October 15, 2002, at 9:45:53
In reply to easy for me to say; I'm self-employed. sorry! (nm) » Dinah, posted by BeardedLady on October 15, 2002, at 9:42:15
Posted by BeardedLady on October 15, 2002, at 14:23:19
In reply to Re: I only recognize one 6:00 per day. (grin) (nm) » BeardedLady, posted by Dinah on October 15, 2002, at 9:45:53
Posted by BeardedLady on October 16, 2002, at 7:00:24
In reply to Didn't go in. Going in today. In 1/2 an hour*gulp*, posted by bookgurl99 on October 15, 2002, at 7:30:23
I just read last night (coincidentally!) that B complex (and especially B2) and feverfew are effective migraine meds. The article (in a cheesy women's magazine—Fitness) said that you should take this combo preparation called Migraleve for two weeks. There's a caution: "If you don't see results after taking either MIgraleve or B2 for two weeks, discontinue use."
I don't buy it, as it takes a few weeks to a month for either feverfew or the Bs to work!
Some quotes from the article: "A couple of good studies have shown that migraine sufferers who took feverfew reduced the number and severity of these headaches, as well as the vomiting that often accompanies them."
"Feverfew is prophylactic—it does not cure an existing migraine. You may need to take it up to a month before you see results."
"Several reports published in medical journals have suggested that B2 reduces migraine pain."
My suggestion is still the complex B (at least 50 mg. of 2, 6, and 12), and if it's not helping after a month, add the feverfew (again, not leaves).
Hope something here offers hope and help.
beardy
Posted by IsoM on October 16, 2002, at 13:40:23
In reply to Migraine relief--new article » bookgurl99, posted by BeardedLady on October 16, 2002, at 7:00:24
Beardy, why not the leaves? Where did you read this? The evidence of feverfew helping migraines started from anecdotal bits accumulated over many years. One woman who frequently had migraines got in the habit of breaking off a piece of leaf everyday that she worked in her garden. It occurred to her after a couple of months that she wasn't getting migraines like she used to. It was stories like this that started it.
In feverfew preparations, it's the leaves that are used. I know someone who nibbles her leaves from fresh plants to help her. I've tried them fresh as well as the dried prepared forms. But zilcho, nada, it doesn't help me.
Personally, I've tried so many preparations for migraines through the years from beta-blockers to ergot preparations to feverfew, ad nauseum - I've lost count. But none have touched my migraines. They'd come on whether I took something or not. Now that I'm older, they're much fewer & often I only get the strange auras but no pain follows. I do feel a little out of it though afterwards. They don't disrupt my life like they use to so I'm fine with how few they've become.
As you know, I've taken supplemental forms of B complex most of my life, so that's not an avenue to fix them for me either. ANything that can't be fixed, I just attribute it to the fact that I'm loupy & was meant to be. ^_*
Posted by BeardedLady on October 16, 2002, at 14:53:10
In reply to Re: Feverfew leaves?? » BeardedLady, posted by IsoM on October 16, 2002, at 13:40:23
> Beardy, why not the leaves? Where did you read this?
It was in Fitness magazine, and the reasons are valid, as I've had similar experiences with other herbs. Many people are sensitive to these leaves, which can cause ulcers on the tongue (no big deal, but not fun, so why hassle with it?), and it can also make you lose your sense of taste. The article did not say whether this was temporary immediately following chewing the leaves or if it was a possible long-term consequence.
> In feverfew preparations, it's the leaves that are used. I know someone who nibbles her leaves from fresh plants to help her. I've tried them fresh as well as the dried prepared forms. But zilcho, nada, it doesn't help me.
Did you do this daily for several weeks, as the article suggests you must in order for it to work?
> I only get the strange auras but no pain follows. I do feel a little out of it though afterwards. They don't disrupt my life like they use to so I'm fine with how few they've become.I have been getting these, without pain, since I was 21. The first time (though I think I was sixteen when I got my first one but just discounted it) I remember saying anything out loud was while playing racquetball with my now-husband. The room was all white, I got an aura and had to sit out. Then I said, "Oh, I get these when there's a very bright room." It used to not bother me. Now they sort of freak me out because I feel like my eyes are going to stay that way, and that would make me kill myself, I think!
> As you know, I've taken supplemental forms of B complex most of my life, so that's not an avenue to fix them for me either. ANything that can't be fixed, I just attribute it to the fact that I'm loupy & was meant to be. ^_*Ibuprofen before every period keeps me from getting the one I always get on the first day. It's amazing what works for some and not others.
beardy
Posted by IsoM on October 16, 2002, at 16:17:10
In reply to Re: Feverfew leaves?? » IsoM, posted by BeardedLady on October 16, 2002, at 14:53:10
I understand now. Yes, the fresh leaves can cause a bit of stinging on the tongue for some. It was recommended that a person just slip a bit of the leaf between the rest of a sandwich - kind of like English mustard in a sandwich as opposed to trying it alone - yow! It's only temporary, disappears in less than a day.
Yep, tried feverfew for about 4-5 months. Wanted to give it a good trial but it just didn't work for me. I felt nothing, good or bad. The dose was enough too. It's just me.
I do dislike the auras as they leave my head feeling cottony & it's very hard to do much when the pattern fills your vision. But I do my best to ignore them. I'm very good at talking myself out of reacting to things much. Doesn't mean I don't react at all - my body generally will continue to react but I can keep my mind from getting upset much. It's what I've done when I've had panic attacks. Talk myself out of it so it won't last too long.
That's the weird thing about migraines for me. I did see a neurologist who tested me & said they certainly seem like migraines, but there's no pattern to them. Never have been - keeping headache diaries never revealed anything. Weather, stress, cycles, food, even lack of sleep never seemed to trigger them. It may be a rather complex mixture of things that cause mine but I've yet to discover a cause & effect for them. Sometimes, I think my mind & body occupy spearate dimensions of time - they don't seem to correlate to each other much.
Posted by bookgurl99 on October 16, 2002, at 16:26:18
In reply to Re: migraines, etc. » BeardedLady, posted by Dinah on October 15, 2002, at 9:29:23
Must be migraines, the calcium channel blocker is helping. I feel a big difference when I don't take it. I can't tell, though, if it makes my migraines worse or if it's just that I'm used to feeling well on some days. (I get them, or at least the aura, every day. Talk about an overactive CNS.)
I was probably having migraines for a while there, but didn't notice as they were not causing the severe aura. I used to have 'panic attacks,' where it felt like a racing sensation in my head. These left when my other symptoms began, so they may have been a different kind of migraine.
The CCB makes me tired, so I drink caffeine to balance that out. I know, though, that caffeine undoes many of my good habits. So I'm working on that.
My long-term goal is to be free of all drugs, minus the thyroid hormones I need to take. I sometimes wonder if long-term exposure to antidepressants has made me any more vulnerable to migraines. Nontheless, with a tendency towards severe anxiety, obsessiveness, and depression, I really need to change my ways.
Luckily, my gf is really pushing me to eat at home more (for us to save $), and exercise every day (I started out nudging her), so at least I have those positives. My new goals are to:
* quit caffeine
* establish a better sleep-wake routine; maybe switch from Zoloft to another AD that helps me sleep better.
* give up refined carbs except for one day a week. (Wheat and sugar are major triggers for me.)
* relax!:D
Thanks for the advice, y'allbookgurl99
Posted by IsoM on October 16, 2002, at 16:34:06
In reply to Re: migraines, etc., posted by bookgurl99 on October 16, 2002, at 16:26:18
Bookgurl, I can't remember if I ever read if you've taken Dexedrine. Have you? I seem to actually have fewer headaches (not all mine have auras) & less over all aches & pain when I use Dex. I've read since then that Dex helps some with pain.
I'm not sure how it works with a ccb but there's lots of sites on Google that would show up if you did a search about possible interactions of the two. You could check with your doctor too.
I do know you'll feel better if it doesn't excaberate other problems. And no, anxiety doesn't always contradict using Dex. It can paradoxically improve anxiety for some when they use it. It certainly does me. And then you won't have to rely on caffeine which makes anxiety worse for most.
Posted by BeardedLady on October 16, 2002, at 18:54:58
In reply to Re: migraines, etc., posted by bookgurl99 on October 16, 2002, at 16:26:18
All of those are good things. Try taking the CCB at night, as I suggested on the other board. My neurologist insisted, as they make you drowsy. That may eliminate the need for caffeine.
And I'd say give up the refined sugar and carbs for all but one day of the week! You would be surprised how easy it is. I am currently off the wagon, but I lost 9 pounds in just a few weeks of no bread or pasta.
Good luck!
beardy
Posted by bookgurl99 on October 16, 2002, at 22:49:09
In reply to Re: migraines, etc. » bookgurl99, posted by IsoM on October 16, 2002, at 16:34:06
Dex would make sense, but I really want a more natural solution. If anything, instead of adding a new drug, I may switch back to an atypical antidepressant (SSNRI) like Serzone. My (now thought of as Migraine) symptoms changed when I developed a bad reaction to Serzone and had to get off suddenly. I think the stress of not knowing what was going on, plus changing my brain chemistry really affected me negatively. So I'm thinking of trying to switch to Effexor, which has a similar structure to Serzone. Does this sound logical?
My ultimate goal is to be drug-free. The dex makes a lot of sense though, since dopamine lessens pain and improves our ability to focus -- both symptoms I have in migraine.
Thanks for the suggestion,
bookgurl99
Posted by bookgurl99 on October 16, 2002, at 22:57:53
In reply to Re: migraines, etc. » bookgurl99, posted by BeardedLady on October 16, 2002, at 18:54:58
> All of those are good things. Try taking the CCB at night, as I suggested on the other board.
Oh, my doc has me takin' the stuff 3 times a day.
>
> And I'd say give up the refined sugar and carbs for all but one day of the week! You would be surprised how easy it is. I am currently off the wagon, but I lost 9 pounds in just a few weeks of no bread or pasta.
>
OMG, you and I are on the same wavelength. Because of the migraine thing and my attempts to follow my naturopathic plan, I decided today that Wednesdays would be my 'cheat day,' for 3 months while I try to give up on refined carbs. (Picked Wed. 'cause it's my day off with my girlfriend.) Oh, I did have a 'small' migraine today, I think set off by eating at a japanese restaurant.Giving up refined carbs is hard, 'cause my girlfriend (who I live with) loves them and doesn't really seem to understand my logic for giving them up. Plus, she loves rice like crazy. (She's asian and grew up in Hawaii.) But I think if I stick to my plan she'll respect it and not try to shove sushi down my throat.
Anyways, it's a relief to be able to tell people my symptoms are due to a migraine now. They seem to relate to it better.
bookgurl99
Posted by IsoM on October 17, 2002, at 1:07:11
In reply to Re: migraines, etc. » BeardedLady, posted by bookgurl99 on October 16, 2002, at 22:57:53
Yes, it does sound logical - your suggestion of switching to Effexor. I'd be leery of wanting to use an SSRI or SRNI if I really didn't have to. But it's just me as the discontinuation problems go on for many, many months with me. It's worse than hell.
The reason I like Dex is that it doesn't seem to alter your brain chemistry long term like ADs do. It perks your brain up for a while then is out of your system & everything's normal again, that is if one doesn't overdo it & deplete dopamine levels.
Strange how if you tell others you have a migraine, so many will commiserate with you. It seems everybody & their dog thinks they have migraines. Those who do get the real thing know that every bad headache ISN'T a migraine but I don't bother explaining to others. Like you said, it seems to be better accepted telling someone your problems are migraines.
Don't forget regular exercise & fresh air. Somehow it helps too. Take care & enjoy your sweet Wednesdays!
Posted by Dinah on October 17, 2002, at 3:32:47
In reply to Re: migraines, etc. » bookgurl99, posted by IsoM on October 17, 2002, at 1:07:11
What gets me about migraines is how global they are! I don't think they should be called migraine headaches at all. From light, sound, and movement sensitivity to intestinal disturbance to problems with perception. That strange feeling of unreality (of course when the walls are shimmering and appear to be an illusion, it's probably natural to have feelings of unreality.) Migraines seem to affect everything. During those periods of time when I get migraines, they seem to never stop. The headaches might come and go and the visual distortions might stop, but I still feel the rest of the phenomena.
I'm trying to read Migraines by Oliver Sacks, but I usually only pick it up when I have one, and naturally I don't get much reading done at that time.
Posted by BeardedLady on October 17, 2002, at 7:35:22
In reply to Re: migraines, etc. » BeardedLady, posted by bookgurl99 on October 16, 2002, at 22:57:53
I don't do it that often, but it beats pasta as long as you use some high-fiber long grain brown rice.
Think of it this way: you don't see very many fat Chinese or Japanese people, but all the diet books say that Italy has the world's biggest weight problem. (Yes, I've heard of Sumo wrestlers, but I don't think they count! Besides, they're probably eating pasta to gain weight!)
Of course, all diet (and everything else) is personal. Some people don't react to carbs the way I do.
Good luck locating your triggers. My trigger has always been the same, and it had to do with my menstrual cycle.
beardy
Posted by BeardedLady on October 17, 2002, at 13:16:20
In reply to Rice is good. » bookgurl99, posted by BeardedLady on October 17, 2002, at 7:35:22
My Italian friend says I am wrong and that there are NO fat people in Italy (I must have been in a couple of heavier cities!) and that she knows lots of Italians from Italy who aren't fat and who eat pasta every day. And she adds that America has more obese people than anywhere, which I have heard is a fact.
(I had a friend who thought people were "obeast." She also thought dead people were transported in a "hearst." But I digress.)
As I said before, everybody's body is different, and I know how carbs work on me. They make me fat.
18-pounds-thinner beardy (and not because I shaved, either)
Posted by bookgurl99 on October 17, 2002, at 21:27:26
In reply to Re: migraines, etc. » bookgurl99, posted by BeardedLady on October 16, 2002, at 18:54:58
Ate 2 candy bars today! And had a tall capuccino! Felt like crap (physically, head tight, trouble concentrating, etc) until I ate some real protein -- chicken. MMM.
So I'm thinking that I need a plan to help me quit, because just saying I'll do it doesn't worik, but if I follow a specific plan I can usually make myself do something. Have you tried Carbohydrate addicts or anything like that? Would you suggest any of that sort of program?
Oh, and also think I really need a new job -- typing relay (for the deaf) means I stare at a computer all day long. I think that can kick my sensitive system into some good ol' visual distortion action.
Wanna go back on the wagon with me? We could get on a program.
Posted by BeardedLady on October 18, 2002, at 7:50:15
In reply to carbohydrates » BeardedLady, posted by bookgurl99 on October 17, 2002, at 21:27:26
bookie:
Sorry you had that bad encounter with the two candy bars and the double cap! Next time, arm yourself with a carrot cake-flavored Cliff bar. (They have the highest fiber and lowest calories and fat--at least, they are the fewest Weight Watchers points!) And get your cap decaf (they can do that almost anywhere). But duh! Do we have to say duh?!
You want a plan to help you quit, and I am a plan person, too, which is why I go to Weight Watchers. I follow the points (which is easier than counting calories and takes fiber and fat into account), and I eat more healthfully than most folks who are trying to fit their candy bars into the plan.
This article changed my life, though it was everything I already believed from reading the Zone diet (which I tried and which worked, but which is also really hard!)
http://www.mercola.com/2002/jul/24/carbs1.htm
I think the guy Dr. Mercola is probably a bonehead, and I think he's mostly trying to sell you supplements, but it's nice that he reprinted the article, because the NYT makes you pay. It's a long article (that's part one, but you can follow the link to part two), but it's well worth it. It essentially says that science has proven Dr. Atkins right all along--including that fat may not have as bad an effect on your heart as carbohydrates. Anyway, you have to read it. I have a copy at home that I lend to everyone.
Regarding your job: the computer is a definite no-no for us folks, and that is my job too! When I feel tightness in my eyes as if a headache is coming on, I get away from it for a long time, and I take lots of breaks to do something else.
You should work in a bookstore! : )> (Me too!) (Oooh, think of all the discounts, all the paychecks lost to books.)
I am back on the wagon as of yesterday, but I had a bit of a chocolate cookie last night after dinner, and I snarfed (my word) a frozen cookie from a bag in the freezer, too).
As for having a plan, you might want to check out a Weight Watchers meeting; the support is wonderful. At least you can get all the program materials so that you can work the points.
Here's a typical good day for me, which includes lots and lots of water, B complex and a multi-vitamin, one decaf coffee, and two Hershey's kisses! (And at least 45 minutes of exercise 6 days a week!)
Breakfast: one or two Gardenburger Breakfast Sausages (fake meat) and 1/2 banana--or not OR a WW chocolate brownie bar, refrigerated (yum!), if I'm in a hurry (carbs).
Lunch: 1 can of tuna or salmon with low fat mayo, eaten with a fork OR two big Boca burgers with low-fat or regular cheese, eaten with a fork! Sometimes I have a spinach salad with almonds and dried cranberries.
Dinner: Chicken leg (drumstick and thigh) with poultry seasoning, a sweet potato or couscous, steamed broccoli and cauliflower, and a beer (not light!). I almost always have a salad. Sometimes for dessert I have a Skinny Cow ice cream sandwich, but I usually don't need the sweets when I eat this way.
I also eat fruit like grapes or a nectarine or an apple or lots of watermelon and lots of soup--Moosewood's Split Pea is awesome, and I make a good veggie soup and beef stew. We eat a lot of baked salmon and stir fried veggies with scallops for dinners, too.
As you see, I have a passion for food and nutrition talk. I truly missed my calling, as I've wanted to be a nutritionist since I was 20 (that is a little-known fact about me--even my mom doesn't know it).
I am 5'4" and weigh 140 pounds. I am down from 160, when I joined Weight Watchers in April. It has taken a long time, but I only have about five or six more pounds to lose before I will feel comfortable.
But it started with only one change. Like first I adjusted my calories to fit the points. Then I started exercising 1/2 hour. Then I upped it to an hour. Then I cut out bread. Etc.
I'd love to share and help you (and you could help me not be a slacker). My e-mail address is the underscore great underscore bearded underscore one underscore at yahoo dot com.
Okay, take my hand. We're hopping on the wagon! (Of course, it's got a snack bar!)
beardy : )>
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 18, 2002, at 10:53:30
In reply to carbs/diet/too much information! » bookgurl99, posted by BeardedLady on October 18, 2002, at 7:50:15
I'ma huge carb addict, ahve tried the carb free diet and after 5 days i was feeling lousy.. maybe cos I eat a vegetarian diet!!
Anyway, last month i hot rock bottom about my weight. I've bene wanting to diet for years but theres been something in mh head simply stopping me doing it... but all of s udden, one day, I day decided to do it!!
One month later - had my weigh in today and I've lost 14 lbs!! (I was 245 at start)
I've cut the fat in my diet right down, to about 10g a day (often less, but 10g is my max) and sticking to around 1000 cals a day. Its not rigid but after the first week I really got into it and am so proud of myself to day I'm bragging all over the show *grins*
An average day for me is
small bowl of high fibre cereal (called Shreddie sin UK!) with skimmed milk and no sugar
3rd tin of baked beans on a slice of toast
stir fried rice with vegetables, or a bean chilli with small portion of boiled rice... things like that.
I was feeling a bit down about it the last few days and was really craving a MacDonalds (terrible I know!) but feel much better about it now I've lost some!!! :o)
Good luck, I know how utterly hard it is
Nikki xx
Posted by Dinah on October 18, 2002, at 16:01:49
In reply to carbs are a nightmare!!!, posted by NikkiT2 on October 18, 2002, at 10:53:30
I don't know if it counts. I've been feeling agitated and anxious for close to a week and have been unable to eat anything but dry soft bread and water without being really sorry.
I don't recommend the agitated depression diet to anyone, but if I could keep the weight off between episodes, I figure in ten agitated depressions (less than two years I'm sure) I could be at the weight I want.
Posted by BeardedLady on October 18, 2002, at 16:09:04
In reply to Re: Just lost 4 lbs in a week in a pure carb diet., posted by Dinah on October 18, 2002, at 16:01:49
First of all, ANY major change in your diet involving fewer calories will cause weight loss initially. Second, you're obviously not eating enough calories. That's far too much weight to lose in a week, and you're right; it probably won't stay off. (When I have insomnia and that road hum feeling in my body, I burn a lot more calories.)
The problem with carbs is the stimulation of insulin production, which holds on to fat. (You can still lose some weight, but it's often calorie stores; then you'll stubbornly hold on to fat.)
Maybe you could try to put a hunk of cheese on that bread. Better yet, pair the cheese with an apple and an ounce of wine!
I hope you feel better, prisoner!
beardy
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