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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on February 7, 2002, at 9:47:36
Between Dr. Bob's lecture and janejj's question on whether PB has hindered anyone's recovery, I've been wondering. How do you see PB as influencing your life? How do others in your life view it?
My answers:
I have posted many times how valuable PB has been to me. It's been a source of support and a source of wisdom. There are so many people here who have experienced what I have and so many people who are wise and full of common sense.
It's been a place to express my feelings without anyone overreacting.
It's been a source of community for me. I have met so many wonderful people here.
It's been a place where I can practice relating to others. And I've been trying to carry that over into my real life (with decidedly mixed success).The only others who know I post here are my therapist and my husband. My therapist thinks it's great. He's been wanting me to try to reach out to others for years, and if this is the milieu (I love that word Dr. Bob) that I feel comfortable doing it in, then he's grateful that it exists.
My husband thinks I spend too much time on the internet, not PB in particular, I spend lots of time doing other things on the internet too. Geneology, research, shopping, etc. He also thinks it's pathetic that I so greatly appreciate the acceptance and validation of myself as a valuable human being from a cyber community.
Posted by susan C on February 7, 2002, at 12:19:36
In reply to How has PB affected you?, posted by Dinah on February 7, 2002, at 9:47:36
Posted by fi on February 8, 2002, at 5:49:31
In reply to How has PB affected you?, posted by Dinah on February 7, 2002, at 9:47:36
Its still *people* using the technology- your husband is wrong to dismiss this community.
If it was one of those computer programmes that just asks you questions based on your replies ('I'm tired' 'So you are tired?') he might have a point.
But stick with us human beings and take no attention of his views!
Will have a proper think re earlier part of your message later.
Fi
Posted by kid_A on February 8, 2002, at 10:41:21
In reply to Re: How has PB affected you? » Dinah, posted by fi on February 8, 2002, at 5:49:31
Finding this board for me was, i hate cliched words, a godsend... Its been a vast resource for me not only in medication information which is what I initially used the board for, but also in finding others who could understand what I was going through and who didn't judge my actions in the ways that other non-afflicted people have.It's probably too archaic an organization to be remembered but long ago, I stumbled across the alt.sucide.holiday usenet thread and accompanying FAQ... Grimly enough the FAQ described various methods of suicide and provided many links about suicide... Some of the posters on the newsgroup came together to form the #ash IRC channel... IRC for those who havent used it is a much more robust form of Internet chat than normaly is found on boards like Yahoo and the like, and has been a staple of the internet community since well before there were shrines to Britney Spears by the hundreds...
The point to this long rambling post was that as a group, a regular if not sometimes wavering small group of us regularly chatted on #ash, not about suicide but just as friends, supporting each other through trials and problems and generally making friends... It seems odd that something so helpfull can come from something that seems so insideous as a conpendium of information on the act of suicide, but the process of coming together, what Marshall Mcluhan called "Group Experience" created an environment of caring people who were honestly interested and involved in the well being of the other participants...
Thats exactly what I've found here, and it's why I keep coming back... Open expands these possibilities by providing what the old #ash IRC channel did, realtime interactive chat with the participants of this board. Getting to see that there are people beyond the depression, that these people are more than just their DSMII description... Thanks to everyone who I've had the fortune to talk w/ here, thanks for reading my poetry, thanks for your input, thanks for sticking around.
-(a)
Posted by fi on February 8, 2002, at 12:13:44
In reply to How has PB affected you?, posted by Dinah on February 7, 2002, at 9:47:36
Sorry, cant find
> janejj's question on whether PB has hindered anyone's recovery
and its the end of a long, hard day!
I've said some of the positive things before, so just briefly some of the others, tho they arent as important by any means.
So will just say here: I think there's a definite bittersweet feel to getting relevant messages- its very insightful and supportive which is great, but at the same time quite lonely as the person sending it isnt there, you cant talk to them directly, and they could be anywhere in the world.
I've been quite worried sometimes about the desperate people, particularly when they stop sending messages or during a gap. I hope its that they are better or in hospital or have another form of support, but you can't tell.
Sometimes it would be good to disclose more than I dare (on an open website, particularly)as it would identify me.
Sometimes its hard to explain or understand things in short written messages.
And I've been surprisingly upset a couple of times by responses to a couple of my posts.
But all of these are really responses to janejjs post- I would stress again that I think there are a lot of benefits, particularly the wise advice and support from people who have been there, anonymously.
Fi (done too much work today but wanted to get this message done before went home..)
Posted by trouble on February 10, 2002, at 13:29:57
In reply to Re: How has PB affected you?, posted by fi on February 8, 2002, at 12:13:44
Hello Fi,
Can you say something about your desire to disclose more data than what you normally do in the event your words might identify you?
For instance,
Identify you to whom, and what are the ramifications of that happening, and if you're going to come back and say I'm using my office computer and my boss could see it I will come back and ask you to defend that position. What are the ramifications?
Also, would you say more about the sense that it would be good for you to, at times, say more than you normally do (if not for those constraints).Sorry if I seem to be prying, I am enamored of "private" people, and would never analyze their motivations out of indiscriminate curiosity.
I myself am rather hell-bent on self-expression. Finding a safe place where I can disclose, and where people don't automatically respond with "Who's the freak?" has had unexpected positive ramifications in my life, I mean I am moving forward w/ things I've been stuck on and procrastinating about for two years.
I believe the growth is largely b/c I'm no longer pouring my energies into courting the world's cold-hearted misunderstanding, since I've found a world of warm-hearted sophisticates, who are unfazed by the freak's freakishness, I don't have to FIGHT for her all the time, can set that business aside and turn my attention to other things for a change.
You mention there've been responses to your posts that have upset you. How did you handle those experiences?
Partly I'm wondering if you know something I don't (!), or if all that reticence is some sort of paper tiger, scaring you wrongfully.
Nothing against paper tigers, I gotta million of 'em, and it usually takes outside influence to see them for what they are. Not that YOU'RE doing this, but oh heck! I'd just feel better if you'd clarify.Thanks!
[ trouble ]
(That's my name and phone number. Figured I can't really be promoting self-disclosure if I don't put my money where my mouth is.)
Posted by IsoM on February 10, 2002, at 14:21:15
In reply to wordy, self -absorbed response message for Fi., posted by trouble on February 10, 2002, at 13:29:57
hoo boy, trouble... I'm all for being open too but I'd NEVER post my name & phone #, not because of who would see it but because of who might respond.
I seriously believe that the other posters here have pretty good intentions & wouldn't bother you. BUT, this IS a public forum & anyone strange with an unhealthy interest in finding what they might perceive as vulnerable people can come here & read the posts, not just forum members.
Are you sure you want your name & number here?
Posted by trouble on February 10, 2002, at 14:53:16
In reply to Re: name and phone # » trouble, posted by IsoM on February 10, 2002, at 14:21:15
Hi IsoM,
See, that's what I don't get, and this is what happens all the time-people going whoo boy and showing concern about my judgement. I just don't see it. And people, (I'm not saying you) people seem to extrapolate about what I could do next if I'd demonstrate such a lack of judgement in a particular instance. That's a big jump.
Anyway I can keep other people's secrets, would never impose my reckless values on someone else, and believe I can be trusted. In a big way I'm very careful w/the sensibilities of others, when I respect and or pity the person.
As for me, I'm not scared of anyone. But if you think it's a bad precedent to post my info on the web I'll remove it, if it can be done. Can it be done?trouble
Posted by christophrejmc on February 10, 2002, at 20:00:25
In reply to Re: name and phone #, posted by trouble on February 10, 2002, at 14:53:16
> Hi IsoM,
>
> See, that's what I don't get, and this is what happens all the time-people going whoo boy and showing concern about my judgement. I just don't see it. And people, (I'm not saying you) people seem to extrapolate about what I could do next if I'd demonstrate such a lack of judgement in a particular instance. That's a big jump.
> Anyway I can keep other people's secrets, would never impose my reckless values on someone else, and believe I can be trusted. In a big way I'm very careful w/the sensibilities of others, when I respect and or pity the person.
> As for me, I'm not scared of anyone. But if you think it's a bad precedent to post my info on the web I'll remove it, if it can be done. Can it be done?
>
> troublePerhaps you can ask Dr. Bob to edit it for you. You might be surprised at the amount of information someone can extract from something as simple as a name/number (not saying it will happen to you, but I've seen people do it and it's not that difficult). If nothing else, you might notice a few more telemarketing calls or something similar.
-Christophre
Posted by IsoM on February 11, 2002, at 0:38:25
In reply to Re: name and phone #, posted by trouble on February 10, 2002, at 14:53:16
Not saying anything is going to happen & I'd *never* question your judgement. I hate when people do that too. I just felt a little concerned 'cause you seem so sweet & I have heard police talk about the weird things some can do because of the anonmynity of the internet. Lots & lots of decent folk but enough outright weirdos lurk on it too.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 11, 2002, at 12:17:16
In reply to Re: name and phone #, posted by trouble on February 10, 2002, at 14:53:16
> if you think it's a bad precedent to post my info on the web I'll remove it, if it can be done. Can it be done?
It can be done, and I did it, but I have to do it by hand, so I can't promise it always *will* be done...
Bob
Posted by Fi on February 11, 2002, at 13:02:53
In reply to wordy, self -absorbed response message for Fi., posted by trouble on February 10, 2002, at 13:29:57
>
> Can you say something about your desire to disclose more data than what you normally do in the event your words might identify you?I wouldnt want it to be possible for any internet user to know very personal things about me as an identifiable individual. Board members are supportive and respectful, but that cannot be assumed of the whole rest of the internet using population. There is information linked to my work which could have marginal relevances sometimes to my posts, but it would be easy to identify me from my work. Not that I know anyone would actually bother to do so- I just dont want it to be easy!
My boss already knows I have a history of depression, tho he doesnt know half of the personal things about myself and my feelings/experiences which I have posted. And I'd rather that he, my colleagues, and any miscellaneous malevolent surfers, didnt know the whole picture.
Some things *are* personal. I suppose my nightmare scenario would be getting nasty emails to my own email address based on the information which I had posted on this Board.> and say I'm using my office computer and my boss could see it I will come back and ask you to defend that position.
That isnt a particular worry, tho I have tried to be more organised and do my work PSBabbling during breaks. Strictly speaking, we're not meant to do non-work surfing in work time, tho I think its unlikely they ever check the web logs. But there was a short stage when I was using it quite a bit during main work hours. Now I do it at home (as now) or in breaks.>
> Also, would you say more about the sense that it would be good for you to, at times, say more than you normally do (if not for those constraints).
Its not really a big deal- just sometimes knowledge from work which might be some use in replying to others, rather than anything about me. Not anything mega, tho.
> I myself am rather hell-bent on self-expression. Finding a safe place where I can disclose, and where people don't automatically respond with "Who's the freak?" has had unexpected positive ramifications in my life, I mean I am moving forward w/ things I've been stuck on and procrastinating about for two years.
>
> I believe the growth is largely b/c I'm no longer pouring my energies into courting the world's cold-hearted misunderstanding, since I've found a world of warm-hearted sophisticates, who are unfazed by the freak's freakishness, I don't have to FIGHT for her all the time, can set that business aside and turn my attention to other things for a change.I agree absolutely on the value of this forum, and it works well without us needing to identify ourselves fully. It is a bit weird as we are a warm bunch, but its a bit like having a meeting with good friends which is being broadcast for the world to drop into. And we dont know enough about all of them to be sure that they are nice people too!
> You mention there've been responses to your posts that have upset you. How did you handle those experiences?
Havent upset me a lot- surprised by the fact I was upset at all by what were not big issues. Put it down to part of the directness of this Board, and also showed need for me to be careful how I worded things to other people if I didnt want to irritate them. Or be prepared to take the flak. Got over it pretty quickly.
Made me more cautious for a while but vastly outweighed by positive experiences, and I did bring it on myself! I think its partly as sharing very personal things, even anonymously, makes me feel any negative stuff directed at me much more than I would otherwise.One of the limitations of this board is that even 'long' messages are short and out of the context of knowing the person, and being able to clarify straight away. I've realised since your message that my message could have been read as meaning I had some significant stuff I wasnt sharing about myself. There isnt.
The particular paper tiger I have is the hoarding paper tiger (so all too literally surrounded by paper!) which I have mentioned on this Board, which led to some great suggestions and a much more insightful range of ideas than my therapist ever managed!
No worries at all re clarifying- hope this makes it clearer.
Fi
Posted by IsoM on February 11, 2002, at 14:56:08
In reply to Re: wordy, self -absorbed response message for Fi. » trouble, posted by Fi on February 11, 2002, at 13:02:53
Fi, you wrote "...The particular paper tiger I have is the hoarding paper tiger (so all too literally surrounded by paper!) which I have mentioned on this Board, which led to some great suggestions and a much more insightful range of ideas than my therapist ever managed!"
I have the worse time with paperwork, keeping it organised & workable. Could you kindly give me the link to the original posts so I can read the suggestions on managing my own paper tigers (more a litter of paper tiger cubs)? Thank you.
Posted by fi on February 12, 2002, at 11:32:04
In reply to Hoarding paper » Fi, posted by IsoM on February 11, 2002, at 14:56:08
There was some wise tips on general coping with domestic chaos (rather than specific to paper) eg
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20011216/msgs/15711.html
and others in that threadFlyLady will send lots of encouraging messages (maybe too many- I signed up for a few weeks then signed off again) plus good stuff on the website. see http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20011216/msgs/15891.html
There was also a good book recommended, and when I ordered it on Amazon they came up with a 'related items' title which I went for which was specifically on paper. I havent got them here but will get details and send you.
A lot of the tips I have read/seen were things like:
*throw away (or take to recycling) as much as possible- open your post next to the waste/recyling bin.
* dont keep newspapers more than a day or magazines more than a month (or TV listing magazines beyond the period they cover!)
* have a set place for important documents (eg passport, birth certificate) and put any removed straight back
* which links to the general- if you take papers out of whatever system you keep, put them back once the task is finished rather than leaving them in a heap.
* have papers next where you will deal with them (eg reading next the sofa, bills next where you keep the cheque/check book)
* register not to get junk mail (there are official ways you can do this)
* stop subscribing to magazines you never have the time to read,or which arent really interestingI bought a filing cabinet which does help a bit- I worked out a decent range of headings for the files (eg insurance/days out/health) but the problem is I dont file things in it often enough!
Another one I heard was not to keep crime novels you have read as you then *know* 'who did it'. But for me, the one advantage of a hopeless memory is I can read the same story a few months later and not have it spoiled by knowing who did it!
There's a fascinating/terrifying series on the BBC here at the moment, called 'Life Laundry'. People with cluttered homes volunteered to have a couple of experts work with them. *Everything* from the worst 3 rooms of their home is dumped outside, and they have just one day to work thru it all and get rid of lots! Meanwhile, the rooms are reorganised and redecorated, and they are delighted with the 'after'. I dont quite have the nerve...!
Fi
Posted by IsoM on February 12, 2002, at 12:28:41
In reply to Re: Hoarding paper » IsoM, posted by fi on February 12, 2002, at 11:32:04
> > "...http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20011216/msgs/15711.html
> and others in that thread"Thank you so much!
> > "...FlyLady will send lots of encouraging messages (maybe too many- I signed up for a few weeks then signed off again) plus good stuff on the website."
Like you I signed up & then I signed off after a couple of weeks.
> > ...*throw away (or take to recycling) as much as possible- open your post next to the waste/recyling bin.*
Yes, I do that.
> > ...* dont keep newspapers more than a day or magazines more than a month (or TV listing magazines beyond the period they cover!)*
And that too.
> > ...* have a set place for important documents (eg passport, birth certificate) and put any removed straight back*
> * which links to the general- if you take papers out of whatever system you keep, put them back once the task is finished rather than leaving them in a heap.*
> * have papers next where you will deal with them (eg reading next the sofa, bills next where you keep the cheque/check book)*I'll put these ideas to use!
> > "...There's a fascinating/terrifying series on the BBC here at the moment, called 'Life Laundry'. People with cluttered homes volunteered to have a couple of experts work with them. *Everything* from the worst 3 rooms of their home is dumped outside, and they have just one day to work thru it all and get rid of lots! Meanwhile, the rooms are reorganised and redecorated, and they are delighted with the 'after'. I dont quite have the nerve...!"
I know what would happen to me. I'd have a full-blown panic attack & after things had been thrown out, find that I'd lost lots of valuable things I meant to keep. (And I'm not even a real hoarder - I throw things out or recycle often. It just takes very little to disorganise me!)
Posted by Noa on February 12, 2002, at 17:41:56
In reply to Re: wordy, self -absorbed response message for Fi. » trouble, posted by Fi on February 11, 2002, at 13:02:53
This can feel "intimate", but we have no way of knowing who is reading what and once something is on the internet, it can go on being there, out of our control, for a long long time.
Unfortunately, not long ago, someone on this board got very hurt when someone in her life read her posts and figured out it was her and used it against her. She then decided to stop posting for a while, and when she came back, she was much more cautious about any identifying info. In fact, I am not sure I know "who" she (ie, screen name) now.
Posted by Noa on February 12, 2002, at 17:44:08
In reply to Re: Hoarding paper » IsoM, posted by fi on February 12, 2002, at 11:32:04
I had signed up and found some of her suggestions useful, but also ended up unsubscribing because it was overwhelming--all the emails and just feeling overwhelmed with all the suggestions. now I just read once in a while on the yahoo website.
Posted by susan C on February 12, 2002, at 19:33:48
In reply to Re: Fly lady, posted by Noa on February 12, 2002, at 17:44:08
I think the idea of fly lady, is after you get some of the routines, 'You Fly'. And so, you dont need to be necessarily signed up to get all or some of the emails.
Mouse with intsie tinsie wintsie little wings
Posted by jenwolf on September 22, 2002, at 22:54:10
In reply to consensus out of chaos and alt.suicide.holiday, posted by kid_A on February 8, 2002, at 10:41:21
> It's probably too archaic an organization to be
> remembered but long ago, I stumbled across the
> alt.sucide.holiday usenet thread and accompanying
> FAQ... Grimly enough the FAQ described various
> methods of suicide and provided many links about
> suicide... Some of the posters on the newsgroup
> came together to form the #ash IRC channel...
> IRC for those who havent used it is a much more
> robust form of Internet chat than normaly is
> found on boards like Yahoo and the like, and
> has been a staple of the internet community
> since well before there were shrines to
> Britney Spears by the hundreds...alt.suicide.holiday is alive and well and the
website can be found at http://ash.xanthia.comThe IRC dalnet channel #ash was taken over by
fans of some punk rock band, but there is a channel
on the same network (dalnet) #alt.suicide.holiday with much
the same spirit you describe. There is also an active
mailing list: ash-l-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.Of course, the general idea is the right to choose
suicide, but it ends up being a major support for
a lot of people including myself.I'm not thrilled about ashers being lab rats for this
little study, but you've already mentioned it and it
couldn't possibly be as bad as the documentary being
shown all over europe, blah.Anyway, I'm sorry to hear you lost track of us,
please join us again if you feel the need :).
This is the end of the thread.
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