![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 34. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by allisonm on September 10, 2000, at 17:37:10
This is a vent probably more than a rant...something that has weighed heavily on me since Thursday morning. Work has been really stressful the last few weeks -- more than usual and it's usually very stressful. I guess that makes it really very stressful right now. My weekly meetings with my boss have been tense. As we only see each other in person about once a week, the worst of the week gets concentrated and put up front as topics du jour. Well, last week was about the fourth in a row to be tense because of personnel issues, extremely tight deadlines, lotsa pressure, lotsa politics. When I get tense sometimes I weep. My boss brought up the tenseness at our thursday morning meeting, and my eyes started to water as I voiced my frustration over the pressure in the last few weeks and how it seems unrelenting.
To my horror, she suggested a medical leave, or if this was not possible, a leave of absence. She knows about my past and my struggle with depression. There have been times when I could not hide its effects. I've never talked about it much, but when my boss has noticed that I'm unusually down, I tell her I'm aware of it and working on it. She also has suffered from depression, been on ADs and been in therapy. Which is why I was so floored that she would suggest this. At first I felt like I had failed. Now I am trying not to be extremely pissed off. My doctor was appalled when I told him, which validated my feelings.
This all happened Thursday. I called the HR rep on Friday to find out my rights. She says there are no ramifications if I decline, that this is being offered because my boss truly wants to help me. If she had offered a couple of days off, THAT, I think, would have been more appropriate. I told the HR person that I think my boss is shooting the messenger. What pisses me off, too, is that less than a week ago she was telling me what a great job I was doing and how she wouldn't want anyone else handling the current crisis situations. My record for the four years I've worked there is spotless. I've always had outstanding reviews.
Anyway, I was going to decline the offer Friday afternoon and be done with it, but my boss was in meetings all day. She's out on Monday, so we're meeting Tuesday. I have been running in my head what to say to her. Whether to simply decline and leave it at that, or to go into the stresses of recent weeks, pointing out that each of the last 3 or 4 meetings have focused on unusually difficult situations and that because our meetings have been so infrequent, the urgent stuff always takes priority. I am tempted to ask her whether she would have recommended a medical leave if she didn't know about my depression, but I don't want to get into it with her again and I really don't need to make her doubt me any more than she does and I really cannot afford to lose my job right now. I think at this point it's wisest just to decline and say as little as possible... suggestions?
Posted by Phil on September 10, 2000, at 18:30:50
In reply to Kinda worried, posted by allisonm on September 10, 2000, at 17:37:10
allison, A week ago she said you were doing a great job and now she suggests this? Is she still in therapy or does she think she's 'cured' and wants to see a tougher allison?
I'm just thinking out loud but have you considered taking your great work history to another more humane company?
Extreme stress, as you know, especially over long periods of time is not good for anyone.
Is it worth it?
Phil
Posted by allisonm on September 10, 2000, at 19:15:46
In reply to Re: Kinda worried, posted by Phil on September 10, 2000, at 18:30:50
Thanks, Phil. Good points.
I was extremely lucky that this got laid on me on Thursday morning and I had an apppointment with my psychiatrist three hours later. He used the word "betrayed" to sum it up and drew comparisons between my dysfunctional worklife/colleagues and my dysfunctional personal life/family members.
I've already started updating my resume, but he pointed out that it's better not to make that kind of switch in haste or desperation. It is/was a great place to work. It's just been extremely tumultuous in the last 6 months. I keeping waiting for things to settle down again, but they haven't and it's wearing all of us down -- my boss included. She's been afraid for her job since early December.
What worries me, too, is how many people she's told about this -- probably the director and possibly some other high-ranking folks. I feel humiliated.
Posted by shellie on September 10, 2000, at 19:19:20
In reply to Kinda worried, posted by allisonm on September 10, 2000, at 17:37:10
I think at this point it's wisest just to decline and say as little as possible... suggestions?
Allison. I think the approach you have come up with yourself is probably the best. When I follow my tendency to explain and justify things, I almost always am sorry afterwards. When I am civil, and share as little as possible, I seem to do the least damage to myself. That way also, you have left all options open for the future; if it becomes in your best interest to confront your boss, you can pick the right way and the right time. Good luck, Shellie
Posted by Phil on September 10, 2000, at 19:49:18
In reply to Re: Kinda worried » allisonm, posted by shellie on September 10, 2000, at 19:19:20
>
> Allison. I think the approach you have come up with yourself is probably the best. When I follow my tendency to explain and justify things, I almost always am sorry afterwards. When I am civil, and share as little as possible, I seem to do the least damage to myself. That way also, you have left all options open for the future; if it becomes in your best interest to confront your boss, you can pick the right way and the right time. Good luck, ShellieShellie, That's right on the money. I've 'shot myself in the foot' too many times by being a bit too chatty. Damn Ritalin!
Phil
Posted by Snowie on September 10, 2000, at 19:52:08
In reply to Kinda worried, posted by allisonm on September 10, 2000, at 17:37:10
Allison,
Talk about being stabbed in the proverbial back; and after commenting about what a great job you've been doing?! She is not your friend. I agree with the others. My therapist would say to thank her politely for thinking of you, and you realize she has your best interest at heart. However, even though the pressures of the job can be somewhat overwhelming at times, for the most part they are manageable. Then, start looking for another job ... life's too short for that type of stress (and believe me, I've been there).
By the way, when depression rears its ugly head and someone mentions it to me at work, I always tell them it's my hormones acting up again. That shuts them (male or female) up quicker than anything. To me, it's nobody's business but mine.
Snowie
> This is a vent probably more than a rant...something that has weighed heavily on me since Thursday morning. Work has been really stressful the last few weeks -- more than usual and it's usually very stressful. I guess that makes it really very stressful right now. My weekly meetings with my boss have been tense. As we only see each other in person about once a week, the worst of the week gets concentrated and put up front as topics du jour. Well, last week was about the fourth in a row to be tense because of personnel issues, extremely tight deadlines, lotsa pressure, lotsa politics. When I get tense sometimes I weep. My boss brought up the tenseness at our thursday morning meeting, and my eyes started to water as I voiced my frustration over the pressure in the last few weeks and how it seems unrelenting.
>
> To my horror, she suggested a medical leave, or if this was not possible, a leave of absence. She knows about my past and my struggle with depression. There have been times when I could not hide its effects. I've never talked about it much, but when my boss has noticed that I'm unusually down, I tell her I'm aware of it and working on it. She also has suffered from depression, been on ADs and been in therapy. Which is why I was so floored that she would suggest this. At first I felt like I had failed. Now I am trying not to be extremely pissed off. My doctor was appalled when I told him, which validated my feelings.
>
> This all happened Thursday. I called the HR rep on Friday to find out my rights. She says there are no ramifications if I decline, that this is being offered because my boss truly wants to help me. If she had offered a couple of days off, THAT, I think, would have been more appropriate. I told the HR person that I think my boss is shooting the messenger. What pisses me off, too, is that less than a week ago she was telling me what a great job I was doing and how she wouldn't want anyone else handling the current crisis situations. My record for the four years I've worked there is spotless. I've always had outstanding reviews.
>
> Anyway, I was going to decline the offer Friday afternoon and be done with it, but my boss was in meetings all day. She's out on Monday, so we're meeting Tuesday. I have been running in my head what to say to her. Whether to simply decline and leave it at that, or to go into the stresses of recent weeks, pointing out that each of the last 3 or 4 meetings have focused on unusually difficult situations and that because our meetings have been so infrequent, the urgent stuff always takes priority. I am tempted to ask her whether she would have recommended a medical leave if she didn't know about my depression, but I don't want to get into it with her again and I really don't need to make her doubt me any more than she does and I really cannot afford to lose my job right now. I think at this point it's wisest just to decline and say as little as possible... suggestions?
Posted by JaneST on September 10, 2000, at 22:45:22
In reply to Re: Kinda worried, posted by allisonm on September 10, 2000, at 19:15:46
Allison:
Just some thoughts here...I'm curious as to how this subject of leave was left between you and your supervisor...did she give you a specific time/meeting/etc. to let her know your decision or was it thrown out on the table in a hypothetical way? Sounds as though the stress and 'tenseness' is getting to her, too.
IMHO, if there was not a definite 'get back to me on this' time I would wait for her to bring the subject up again...if 'get back to me' was kind of vague, you might think of doing a memo or email...keeping it brief and de-personalizing it, but stating/clarifying you appreciate her recognizing how lately the department/caseload has mostly been in 'crisis management mode' and that, being there for over 4 years now, you recognize that, over time, things will return to their 'normal' crisis mode and that you're sure you BOTH look forward to things evening out.
The reason I'm suggesting memo/email is to start the documentation process...only you know if you should do that..that's why the above paragraph is inclusive of the department and her...whether you want to document or have the conversation, only you can judge...if it's a conversation maybe in addition to the above you could say something like:'At first I thought you were joking...but I can assure you there is absolutely no need for a leave (medical or otherwise) of absence...but thanks for asking.' In my view this is an out for her and letting her feel like a 'good' manager.
All of that said, yes, yet again in the world of work, You are expected to rise above and be the better of the two...as far as looking for something else, make sure it's not a knee-jerk reaction...otherwise, you could land in the same kind of spot or worse. You will know the right thing to do when the time comes.
Best of luck...and let me know how it goes.
Jane
Posted by shar on September 11, 2000, at 2:16:00
In reply to Re: Kinda worried » allisonm, posted by JaneST on September 10, 2000, at 22:45:22
A -
I would strongly encourage you to determine what your GOAL is in this situation. Do you want to let your boss know you are not reacting due to a medical problem, but due to stress? Or, do you want to tell her that a couple of days off would do you a lot of good, as opposed to a leave of absence. Or, that you took her at her word when she said a few weeks ago that she was pleased with your work, and now you are unsure where she stands?Until you decide what you want her to know, and what you want to find out from her, it can be confusing. If your goal is to minimize what she suggested, you may just let it lie, not mention it, tell her instead how you really appreciated her support when she said you were doing so well and how that gave you renewed vigor in handling these crises, and BTW boss, here are this weeks crises and tell her what you are doing about them.
I don't think that focusing on whether or not you need medical leave will help achieve a goal, unless the goal is to be sure your boss understands that you are strong and capable. Obviously you are. And, it is really important for you to realize that there just has to be some projecting going on with her.
I am all for documenting things, but I would be really careful about what I wrote in an e-mail. You have called HR, and you can document that, and you can journal (sort of) the on-going meetings with your boss.
If she asks how you are, I would be neutral or on the white-lie side of things. "You know, boss, for a while I was super stressed, but I started watching my caffeine, and sugar intake, and getting outdoors more, and I am a lot better."
Of course you could add, "It would be so nice if we were only putting out our regular brush fires, rather than the conflagration that's been going on."
If someone is going to betray you, the less said the better, and the more positive the better, and if you can compliment her for being able to manage it all, that's a good one too.
Just my opinion. I had a boss (my last boss) who turned out to be a snake in the grass, and I believe being cautious but friendly is good. You can always be less cautious, but once you've been too open, you can't take it back.
Watch thy back and good luck!
Shar
> Allison:
>
> Just some thoughts here...I'm curious as to how this subject of leave was left between you and your supervisor...did she give you a specific time/meeting/etc. to let her know your decision or was it thrown out on the table in a hypothetical way? Sounds as though the stress and 'tenseness' is getting to her, too.
>
> IMHO, if there was not a definite 'get back to me on this' time I would wait for her to bring the subject up again...if 'get back to me' was kind of vague, you might think of doing a memo or email...keeping it brief and de-personalizing it, but stating/clarifying you appreciate her recognizing how lately the department/caseload has mostly been in 'crisis management mode' and that, being there for over 4 years now, you recognize that, over time, things will return to their 'normal' crisis mode and that you're sure you BOTH look forward to things evening out.
>
> The reason I'm suggesting memo/email is to start the documentation process...only you know if you should do that..that's why the above paragraph is inclusive of the department and her...whether you want to document or have the conversation, only you can judge...if it's a conversation maybe in addition to the above you could say something like:'At first I thought you were joking...but I can assure you there is absolutely no need for a leave (medical or otherwise) of absence...but thanks for asking.' In my view this is an out for her and letting her feel like a 'good' manager.
>
> All of that said, yes, yet again in the world of work, You are expected to rise above and be the better of the two...as far as looking for something else, make sure it's not a knee-jerk reaction...otherwise, you could land in the same kind of spot or worse. You will know the right thing to do when the time comes.
>
> Best of luck...and let me know how it goes.
>
> Jane
Posted by Mark H. on September 11, 2000, at 21:19:17
In reply to Kinda worried, posted by allisonm on September 10, 2000, at 17:37:10
Hi Allison,
I want to offer a different point of view, even if it might not apply to your situation.
Taking time off to heal and renew after a particularly stressful period at work is almost too humane and sensible for most of us to consider seriously. A boss who offers/suggests a medical leave (especially a fellow depression-sufferer) might be acting out of compassion and interest in your long-term value to the company. It might even be in your best interest to assume this is true, even if it isn't.
Speaking strictly for myself, when I am at my most depressed I am also most fearful, and I look for and see "betrayal" where there sometimes isn't any at all. My anger says more about where I am in my mood cycle than it does about anyone else's behavior.
As for responses (if any), others have already offered you many good suggestions. To your pallette of choices, I would just add another possibility:
"I really appreciate your support. I don't think I would benefit from a medical leave at this time (and my doctor agrees), but it's great that you are sensitive to my condition, value me as an employee, and would protect my job for me if I ever did find it necessary to take some extended time off."
Note that this documents the interaction and your understanding of it. If she doesn't contradict your understanding, it is reasonable to believe that she agrees with it. This works only if you present it in writing, of course, and keep a copy for yourself.
Generally, your employer cannot fire you for being on disability. In California, state disability begins paying after one week if you are unable to do your regular job.
Likewise, a person may not be discriminated against for having a physical or mental illness, and employers are required to make reasonable accommodations where possible -- but they need to know it exists.
All of this means that there is potential to take a seeming act of betrayal and reframe it in the best possible light, not only attributing qualities of generosity and understanding to your supervisor (which she either swallows and tries to live up to or has to contradict at the risk of looking like a complete jerk while exposing the company to liability) but also protecting your rights under both state and federal labor laws. It's a win-win option.
And another thing -- what if some time off really would do you some good? What if your doctor and your employer really would support you in taking time off? What if state disability insurance would cover most of your expenses during your time off, so that it wouldn't cost you or your employer too much?
I guess I'm really writing this for other people who might read this thread, Allison. Sometimes, working is the best therapy for my depression. At other times, it would be great to take some time off, and I would be grateful if my boss actually suggested or offered a medical leave rather than firing me or trying to drive me to quit.
I support you in whatever you believe is best in your situation.
Best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by JaneST on September 12, 2000, at 1:56:00
In reply to Re: Kinda worried, posted by Mark H. on September 11, 2000, at 21:19:17
Mark:
Should have said it better myself! Great point of view.
Best,
Jane
Posted by Phil on September 12, 2000, at 8:00:35
In reply to Re: Kinda worried, posted by Mark H. on September 11, 2000, at 21:19:17
> Likewise, a person may not be discriminated against for having a physical or mental illness, and employers are required to make reasonable accommodations where possible -- but they need to know it exists.
>
>
> >Mark H. I agree and see wisdom in your approach BUT this discrimination with mental illness is very tricky. Listening to NPR several weeks ago they interviewed two people who suffered from dep. and the other bipolar.
One, a very successful VP of advertising for a major corp. was allowed to keep his title and pay after undergoing ECT, but his authority was nil.
This was in a creative profession where many of his coworkers were depressives and on meds. Guess the co. drew the line at ECT.
He changed jobs.
I agree with the wisdom of your approach but there are some very creative ways that companies can SCREW YOU and get away with it. When it comes to M.I., there are very few companies you can trust, laws or no laws. You can bet your ass on that.My 2 bits,
Phil
Posted by Phil on September 12, 2000, at 8:23:21
In reply to Re: Kinda worried Mark H., posted by Phil on September 12, 2000, at 8:00:35
The lady interviewed confided in a coworker that she believed to be a friend about her depression. Two days later, out of the clear blue, her supervisor asked her how she was handling the stress of her job. This topic had NEVER come up before.
If I remember correctly, she was terminated a week later.
These were long-time mid-career successful people. If I'm not mistaken, the ad-exec was in California.
We are in the dark ages of this issue,IMO and I for one could not afford to fight a company of any size on this issue.
NPR mentioned a few major corporations that really were helping people with mental disorders in various ways but they are few and far between.Beware
Posted by Snowie on September 12, 2000, at 20:13:30
In reply to Re: Kinda worried Mark H., posted by Phil on September 12, 2000, at 8:00:35
I also understand where Mark is coming from (and, by the way, IMHO the info he gave Allison to send to her employer in the event she chooses to decline the leave was excellent), but there are other considerations. Unless a person has a lot of vacation time saved up, FMLA is unpaid leave. In addition, most employers don't pay an employee's medical insurance while the employee is out on FMLA leave. Medical insurance isn't cheap, especially when you don't have a regular paycheck coming in for 12 weeks.
There is comfort knowing that you do have certain rights under the FMLA. However, many employees are terminated once their FMLA leave is up ... it happens all the time (I work for a labor and employment law attorney ;-) ... we represent the crooked companies). All the employer has to say is that the employee would have been terminated whether or not he or she had taken the FMLA leave (for instance, reduction in workforce). Here's more info about the Family & Medical Leave Act.
http://www.nationalpartnership.org/workandfamily/fmleave/questions_answers.htm
Snowie
> > Likewise, a person may not be discriminated against for having a physical or mental illness, and employers are required to make reasonable accommodations where possible -- but they need to know it exists.
> >
> >
> > >Mark H. I agree and see wisdom in your approach BUT this discrimination with mental illness is very tricky. Listening to NPR several weeks ago they interviewed two people who suffered from dep. and the other bipolar.
> One, a very successful VP of advertising for a major corp. was allowed to keep his title and pay after undergoing ECT, but his authority was nil.
> This was in a creative profession where many of his coworkers were depressives and on meds. Guess the co. drew the line at ECT.
> He changed jobs.
> I agree with the wisdom of your approach but there are some very creative ways that companies can SCREW YOU and get away with it. When it comes to M.I., there are very few companies you can trust, laws or no laws. You can bet your ass on that.
>
> My 2 bits,
> Phil
Posted by Mark H. on September 12, 2000, at 20:22:02
In reply to Re: Kinda worried Mark H., posted by Phil on September 12, 2000, at 8:23:21
Phil,
I respect your caution and appreciate the sense of balance that you offered to what I posted -- I think people need to carefully consider your point of view.
Mark H.
Posted by Snowie on September 12, 2000, at 20:35:18
In reply to Re: Kinda worried Mark H., posted by Snowie on September 12, 2000, at 20:13:30
Hmmm ... the info I posted contradicted my statement "[i]n addition, most employers don't pay an employee's medical insurance while the employee is out on FMLA leave." I know we've had some cases where employers have refused to continue paying the employee's medical insurance, but that may have been employees who were out on short-term and/or long-term disability, which is different from the FMLA. (Some companies have a voluntary short-term and/or long-term disability policy.) I'll ask my attorney to be on the safe side.
Snowie
Posted by Mark H. on September 12, 2000, at 20:43:05
In reply to Re: Kinda worried Mark H., posted by Snowie on September 12, 2000, at 20:13:30
Hi Snowie,
That's good to know about the Family Medical Leave Act; thank you for sharing the information.
However, I was referring to state disability (SDI), which is a mandatory payroll deduction in California, and is an insurance fund that pays according to your salary beginning the second week of being unable to work for medical reasons, WHETHER OR NOT you have any vacation time or sick leave that could cover your lost time.
For instance, my wife has ulcers and just took three weeks off to try to heal them on her own (under her doctor's care, of course), in order to avoid expensive surgery that would put her down for an even longer period of time. SDI paid her $490 a week for two of those three weeks, which helped to cover a $500+ bill from the hospital for the scoping she had last month to find the problem.
That coverage would have covered her being out of work for up to 52 weeks. Obtaining the benefits was painless and straightforward.
Also, with regard to the rights of the mentally and physically disabled, I was referring to ADA (the Americans with Disabilities Act), which is unrelated to the Family Medical Leave Act, and provides a basis in federal law for non-discrimination on the part of employers.
Yes, some employers can and will cheat and be dishonest, but over time they are likely to show a pattern of such abuse. With each abuse comes greater likelihood that the next person whose rights they trample will obtain a successful ruling against them.
Giving employers the benefit of the doubt in a way that also makes it clear that you are familiar with your rights is one way of protecting yourself. Will it always work? Of course not. Neither will "hiding" your disability and lying awake at night worrying that you're about to get fired because you simply cannot tell objectively how much your depression is affecting your performance.
Personally, I've tried it both ways. There are risks in any approach. Openness is the one that works best for me. Each person, however, has to decide what the best approach is in his/her specific situation.
By the way, I love your sound and generous paralegal advice, Snowie, and it feels great to know that you're willing to look things up and offer links and references to help us out. You're the best!
Many thanks,
Mark H.
Posted by Brenda on September 12, 2000, at 21:14:11
In reply to Kinda worried, posted by allisonm on September 10, 2000, at 17:37:10
>
Dear Allison,
Your post caused me to have a very physical reaction! I've been in your shoes. I worked for a very large company with a very stressful job. I was a team training facilitator for 200 employess who were not at all interested in the teaming business. I think you get the picture. I worked in HR for 8 years. What a snakepit! I wouldn't trust anyone in HR anywhere. They work FOR THE COMPANY NOT FOR YOUR BEST INTERESTS. If at all possible, document, document, document, everything. Depression is considered a medical illness and is therefore covered by ADA legislation. I went through hell at the company I worked for. I was finally forced out about 3 1/2 yrs ago, after 13 yrs of service, 6 wks paid vaca a year, stocks, 401's and big bucks. So it was kind've hard to leave. However, it was the best thing to ever happen to me. I started my own business at home about 3 mos. later. Still, it was such a stressful, awful period of time, that it still brings a physical gut reaction to me. It's awful to be betrayed by a place where you have placed your loyalty so completely. One thing I learned that I will never forget - LOYALTY IN ANY COMPANY, BUT YOUR OWN IS MISPLACED. Be loyal to yourself and your needs only. Even though I documented my case thoroughly, no lawyer would touch my case because of the size and power of the company. However, I was able to collect unemployment after I left because I called the Director of HR and told her exactly what I had documented and that they had better not try to keep me from collecting unemployment. She knew what I was talking about as I had covered ALL my bases. Needless to say - she backed down and didn't fight me on that. My last boss was so awful he would yell and throw things at me, ie., computer keyboard, phone, pens, etc., in anger and frustration. I told everyone, including HR and VP's. No one did anything.I don't know if any of this rambling is helping or not. But I do now how you feel. My heart goes out to you. Please - above all else do what is best for you. Does your company pay full pay for medical leave? If so, maybe take them up on it and look for a different job. Just a thought.
You're in my thoughts,
Brenda
This is a vent probably more than a rant...something that has weighed heavily on me since Thursday morning. Work has been really stressful the last few weeks -- more than usual and it's usually very stressful. I guess that makes it really very stressful right now. My weekly meetings with my boss have been tense. As we only see each other in person about once a week, the worst of the week gets concentrated and put up front as topics du jour. Well, last week was about the fourth in a row to be tense because of personnel issues, extremely tight deadlines, lotsa pressure, lotsa politics. When I get tense sometimes I weep. My boss brought up the tenseness at our thursday morning meeting, and my eyes started to water as I voiced my frustration over the pressure in the last few weeks and how it seems unrelenting.
>
> To my horror, she suggested a medical leave, or if this was not possible, a leave of absence. She knows about my past and my struggle with depression. There have been times when I could not hide its effects. I've never talked about it much, but when my boss has noticed that I'm unusually down, I tell her I'm aware of it and working on it. She also has suffered from depression, been on ADs and been in therapy. Which is why I was so floored that she would suggest this. At first I felt like I had failed. Now I am trying not to be extremely pissed off. My doctor was appalled when I told him, which validated my feelings.
>
> This all happened Thursday. I called the HR rep on Friday to find out my rights. She says there are no ramifications if I decline, that this is being offered because my boss truly wants to help me. If she had offered a couple of days off, THAT, I think, would have been more appropriate. I told the HR person that I think my boss is shooting the messenger. What pisses me off, too, is that less than a week ago she was telling me what a great job I was doing and how she wouldn't want anyone else handling the current crisis situations. My record for the four years I've worked there is spotless. I've always had outstanding reviews.
>
> Anyway, I was going to decline the offer Friday afternoon and be done with it, but my boss was in meetings all day. She's out on Monday, so we're meeting Tuesday. I have been running in my head what to say to her. Whether to simply decline and leave it at that, or to go into the stresses of recent weeks, pointing out that each of the last 3 or 4 meetings have focused on unusually difficult situations and that because our meetings have been so infrequent, the urgent stuff always takes priority. I am tempted to ask her whether she would have recommended a medical leave if she didn't know about my depression, but I don't want to get into it with her again and I really don't need to make her doubt me any more than she does and I really cannot afford to lose my job right now. I think at this point it's wisest just to decline and say as little as possible... suggestions?
Posted by ksvt on September 12, 2000, at 21:34:28
In reply to Re: Kinda worried, posted by Brenda on September 12, 2000, at 21:14:11
> >
> Dear Allison,
> Your post caused me to have a very physical reaction! I've been in your shoes. I worked for a very large company with a very stressful job. I was a team training facilitator for 200 employess who were not at all interested in the teaming business. I think you get the picture. I worked in HR for 8 years. What a snakepit! I wouldn't trust anyone in HR anywhere. They work FOR THE COMPANY NOT FOR YOUR BEST INTERESTS. If at all possible, document, document, document, everything. Depression is considered a medical illness and is therefore covered by ADA legislation. I went through hell at the company I worked for. I was finally forced out about 3 1/2 yrs ago, after 13 yrs of service, 6 wks paid vaca a year, stocks, 401's and big bucks. So it was kind've hard to leave. However, it was the best thing to ever happen to me. I started my own business at home about 3 mos. later. Still, it was such a stressful, awful period of time, that it still brings a physical gut reaction to me. It's awful to be betrayed by a place where you have placed your loyalty so completely. One thing I learned that I will never forget - LOYALTY IN ANY COMPANY, BUT YOUR OWN IS MISPLACED. Be loyal to yourself and your needs only. Even though I documented my case thoroughly, no lawyer would touch my case because of the size and power of the company. However, I was able to collect unemployment after I left because I called the Director of HR and told her exactly what I had documented and that they had better not try to keep me from collecting unemployment. She knew what I was talking about as I had covered ALL my bases. Needless to say - she backed down and didn't fight me on that. My last boss was so awful he would yell and throw things at me, ie., computer keyboard, phone, pens, etc., in anger and frustration. I told everyone, including HR and VP's. No one did anything.
>
> I don't know if any of this rambling is helping or not. But I do now how you feel. My heart goes out to you. Please - above all else do what is best for you. Does your company pay full pay for medical leave? If so, maybe take them up on it and look for a different job. Just a thought.
> You're in my thoughts,
> Brenda
> This is a vent probably more than a rant...something that has weighed heavily on me since Thursday morning. Work has been really stressful the last few weeks -- more than usual and it's usually very stressful. I guess that makes it really very stressful right now. My weekly meetings with my boss have been tense. As we only see each other in person about once a week, the worst of the week gets concentrated and put up front as topics du jour. Well, last week was about the fourth in a row to be tense because of personnel issues, extremely tight deadlines, lotsa pressure, lotsa politics. When I get tense sometimes I weep. My boss brought up the tenseness at our thursday morning meeting, and my eyes started to water as I voiced my frustration over the pressure in the last few weeks and how it seems unrelenting.
> Allison - it's not clear to me what you would like to do or how you would like to respond as opposed to how you think you should respond. Did you meet today? How did it go? ksvt >
> > To my horror, she suggested a medical leave, or if this was not possible, a leave of absence. She knows about my past and my struggle with depression. There have been times when I could not hide its effects. I've never talked about it much, but when my boss has noticed that I'm unusually down, I tell her I'm aware of it and working on it. She also has suffered from depression, been on ADs and been in therapy. Which is why I was so floored that she would suggest this. At first I felt like I had failed. Now I am trying not to be extremely pissed off. My doctor was appalled when I told him, which validated my feelings.
> >
> > This all happened Thursday. I called the HR rep on Friday to find out my rights. She says there are no ramifications if I decline, that this is being offered because my boss truly wants to help me. If she had offered a couple of days off, THAT, I think, would have been more appropriate. I told the HR person that I think my boss is shooting the messenger. What pisses me off, too, is that less than a week ago she was telling me what a great job I was doing and how she wouldn't want anyone else handling the current crisis situations. My record for the four years I've worked there is spotless. I've always had outstanding reviews.
> >
> > Anyway, I was going to decline the offer Friday afternoon and be done with it, but my boss was in meetings all day. She's out on Monday, so we're meeting Tuesday. I have been running in my head what to say to her. Whether to simply decline and leave it at that, or to go into the stresses of recent weeks, pointing out that each of the last 3 or 4 meetings have focused on unusually difficult situations and that because our meetings have been so infrequent, the urgent stuff always takes priority. I am tempted to ask her whether she would have recommended a medical leave if she didn't know about my depression, but I don't want to get into it with her again and I really don't need to make her doubt me any more than she does and I really cannot afford to lose my job right now. I think at this point it's wisest just to decline and say as little as possible... suggestions?
Posted by Snowie on September 12, 2000, at 21:34:51
In reply to Re: Kinda worried Mark H., posted by Mark H. on September 12, 2000, at 20:43:05
Mark,
I'll be the first to admit that I know nothing about California State law. Rather than attempt to get into the specifics of the ADA, here's a link to info about the ADA.
http://www.nolo.com/encyclopedia/articles/emp/emp3.html
Snowie
> Hi Snowie,
>
> That's good to know about the Family Medical Leave Act; thank you for sharing the information.
>
> However, I was referring to state disability (SDI), which is a mandatory payroll deduction in California, and is an insurance fund that pays according to your salary beginning the second week of being unable to work for medical reasons, WHETHER OR NOT you have any vacation time or sick leave that could cover your lost time.
>
> For instance, my wife has ulcers and just took three weeks off to try to heal them on her own (under her doctor's care, of course), in order to avoid expensive surgery that would put her down for an even longer period of time. SDI paid her $490 a week for two of those three weeks, which helped to cover a $500+ bill from the hospital for the scoping she had last month to find the problem.
>
> That coverage would have covered her being out of work for up to 52 weeks. Obtaining the benefits was painless and straightforward.
>
> Also, with regard to the rights of the mentally and physically disabled, I was referring to ADA (the Americans with Disabilities Act), which is unrelated to the Family Medical Leave Act, and provides a basis in federal law for non-discrimination on the part of employers.
>
> Yes, some employers can and will cheat and be dishonest, but over time they are likely to show a pattern of such abuse. With each abuse comes greater likelihood that the next person whose rights they trample will obtain a successful ruling against them.
>
> Giving employers the benefit of the doubt in a way that also makes it clear that you are familiar with your rights is one way of protecting yourself. Will it always work? Of course not. Neither will "hiding" your disability and lying awake at night worrying that you're about to get fired because you simply cannot tell objectively how much your depression is affecting your performance.
>
> Personally, I've tried it both ways. There are risks in any approach. Openness is the one that works best for me. Each person, however, has to decide what the best approach is in his/her specific situation.
>
> By the way, I love your sound and generous paralegal advice, Snowie, and it feels great to know that you're willing to look things up and offer links and references to help us out. You're the best!
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Mark H.
Posted by allisonm on September 13, 2000, at 0:41:54
In reply to Kinda worried, posted by allisonm on September 10, 2000, at 17:37:10
Everyone, thank you very very much for your responses. They have helped a lot.
The meeting was harder than I anticipated. I had to defend myself in order to keep my position. At
this hour, I think I succeeded, but who knows what tomorrow will bring. In any case, I am going to have to act saner than a sane person to prove myself from now on.I went in and said thanks, but a leave isn't necessary. That wasn't enough. My boss threw out impressions she'd gotten from our last tumultuous meeting, so I had to back up and show her the stresses and situations leading up to that hour. She brought up comments I had made
about questioning myself when one of my staff resigned recently. I said that's normal, and
again brought up all of the stresses from that day.She brought up how I admitted that in April things were bad. That I had told her that even the people I supervised noticed it. I said, yes, I was experiencing a dip personally, but also, bad things were happening at work and my people were not handling things well. There was a lot of hand-wringing and fussing about things, and instead of telling them to suck it up or telling them they weren't doing or acting the way I thought they
should, I stayed silent because I didn't want to make the situation worse, so yes they did detect more silence and avoidant behavior from
me. Then I pointed out that the stigma of mental illness is pervasive and long lasting. .. more than I thought, and I regret ever mentioning
it because I think it's being used unfairly as a reason. I brought up how just the Friday before last my boss told me what a great job I'd been
doing and how I have a spotless record.In my office, we do things in two distinct areas. She presented this plan to promote someone I supervise (I'll call him "Fred") so that he would be in charge of One Thing and I would keep my salary and title, but I'd just be in charge of the Other Thing instead of both and supervising Fred. My boss would supervise him instead. I said looking at the face of it, that would be a demotion. She backed off some, said it was just an idea and we could talk about it some more. Then I brought out
many reasons why it would not be a good idea. I told her that Fred's and my jobs in both areas are so intertwined that they could not be easily split into divisions. He does the routine and happy stuff. I do the administrative stuff, the larger, riskier, more serious projects, and I handle the hard situations when crises arise. She said she was only looking to try to take some of the load off me so that things would not be so stressful. She said things were only going to get more stressful as we begin a new mega project.I told her that since she was moved out of our office, we communicate only a fraction of what we did, and I think that my once-a-week hourlong
meetings probably focused on the very worst of the week, which for the last 3 or 4 meetings have had to do with personnel issues -- one person
quitting, another threatening to start looking for another job because he didn't think he'd gotten a big enough raise, etc. I kept my cool. I
spoke calmly, matter-of-factly. I did not cry. I maintained eye contact for most of the time except when I was working to phrase my most crucial
answers well.I offered to supply job descriptions of those in my department including mine. I asked her who else knew that she'd proposed a leave. There are two - the big cheese and another lateral to her in the administration. I mentioned the stigma again. I said I would get the job descriptions to her and we ended it there. It was a tense ending (again). We were staring at each other. I think she was searching me to see what I was thinking, but I just stared at her with pursed lips. I had nothing more
to say. I knew she wasn't happy with the way the meeting was ending. The air was thick. She knew I was angry/bothered but was not about to talk
anymore about it.It was not long that I was back in my office when the phone rang. It was my boss. She said she'd listened carefully to what I'd said and had been thinking about it. She said she went right away to the administrators and told them that a leave was not necessary.
She said that she thinks she read me wrong in our meeting last week and suggested leaving things as they are and having her be in charge of the mega project and the "larger picture" planning. Fine with me. Frankly, we're swamped. I told her in several different ways that I did not want to give up that one component of my job. I feel my background gives me an edge in strategizing and I like to do that. I also pointed out that Fred is not so good in crisis situations. She agreed.
So it looks as though I'm still in charge of what I was before. We agreed we need more communication. It was good before, because we could
pop into each other's offices and talk about the work at hand instead of setting up formal weekly meetings where only the most urgent issues could be addressed. She needs to be more connected again so that she'll understand just what pressures we're under. She hasn't been able to be as good an advocate since moving out.I told her I felt better. I know she felt better. So things seem smoothed out. I am still watching my back.
Posted by Phil on September 13, 2000, at 6:50:30
In reply to followup, posted by allisonm on September 13, 2000, at 0:41:54
Allison, Hopefully you are well paid for putting yourself through all that pressure.
I worked for a retail company in the 70's and early 80's and routinely put in 80 hour weeks and was constantly under pressure, a lot. The last year, I was running 5 stores.
When I left that company, I had no sense of who I was or what the hell my life was about. Shortly after, I began therapy and a year or so later meds. I made the owners a lot of money but knew nothing about 'taking care of myself'. One of those areas of self-care, which I'm still working on, is putting some 'go to hell' money in the bank.
I never realized that, coming from an alcoholic home, made the chaos and pressure of that job feel 'normal'. I thrived on the adrenaline. It almost killed me and, in the end, did kill my spirit.
All I'm saying is TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF. You don't have to prove you can take more and more pressure.
Sorry if this sounds preachy but self-care has to be a big part of our recovery. Your company has no real care for you as a person as far as I can tell. Even though they talk the talk, they are asking an awful lot. Their dynamics seem very reminiscent of the company I worked for.Just ramblin'
Phil
Posted by Brenda on September 13, 2000, at 10:55:42
In reply to Re: followup, posted by Phil on September 13, 2000, at 6:50:30
>
Allison,
You go girl! I hope you're very proud of yourself for handling the situation so admirably. I second Phil's thoughts. ALWAYS remember to look out for your best interests. The company is only looking out for theirs. It's a really good idea to keep your boss informed of all the good stuff going on in your area. Can you e-mail her with updates as they occur? This will also help to document all the good stuff you're doing.
As always - my thoughts are with you,
BrendaAllison, Hopefully you are well paid for putting yourself through all that pressure.
> I worked for a retail company in the 70's and early 80's and routinely put in 80 hour weeks and was constantly under pressure, a lot. The last year, I was running 5 stores.
> When I left that company, I had no sense of who I was or what the hell my life was about. Shortly after, I began therapy and a year or so later meds. I made the owners a lot of money but knew nothing about 'taking care of myself'. One of those areas of self-care, which I'm still working on, is putting some 'go to hell' money in the bank.
> I never realized that, coming from an alcoholic home, made the chaos and pressure of that job feel 'normal'. I thrived on the adrenaline. It almost killed me and, in the end, did kill my spirit.
> All I'm saying is TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF. You don't have to prove you can take more and more pressure.
> Sorry if this sounds preachy but self-care has to be a big part of our recovery. Your company has no real care for you as a person as far as I can tell. Even though they talk the talk, they are asking an awful lot. Their dynamics seem very reminiscent of the company I worked for.
>
> Just ramblin'
> Phil
Posted by shellie on September 13, 2000, at 11:42:11
In reply to followup, posted by allisonm on September 13, 2000, at 0:41:54
Allison. Excellent excellent job. It's become clear to me recently that depression need not cloud perspective. Many people who do not have a so called mental illness still lack perception, intuitive intelligence and good judgement. I think you proved that in your meeting. You were the one who was most aware of whole picture, who was aware of the weaknesses in splitting the position, and the awareness of who had the capasity to handle which jobs. You were also the one who came up with the solution--( meeting more often with your boss.)
I think you should feel really proud of yourself. I think you should still keep in mind for your next job the notion that the least you share about your illness, the less it can be used against you. But under these circumstances, you aced. Shellie
Posted by shar on September 13, 2000, at 12:27:18
In reply to Re: followup, posted by Brenda on September 13, 2000, at 10:55:42
Help! For some reason I can't get Allison's follow up post to come up! I really am interested in how she handled all that BS and hope I can learn from it.
Can some one reply to the original post and make it to Shar or something? So then I can read her post as it was responded to.
Thank you!
Shar
> >
> Allison,
> You go girl! I hope you're very proud of yourself for handling the situation so admirably. I second Phil's thoughts. ALWAYS remember to look out for your best interests. The company is only looking out for theirs. It's a really good idea to keep your boss informed of all the good stuff going on in your area. Can you e-mail her with updates as they occur? This will also help to document all the good stuff you're doing.
> As always - my thoughts are with you,
> Brenda
>
> Allison, Hopefully you are well paid for putting yourself through all that pressure.
> > I worked for a retail company in the 70's and early 80's and routinely put in 80 hour weeks and was constantly under pressure, a lot. The last year, I was running 5 stores.
> > When I left that company, I had no sense of who I was or what the hell my life was about. Shortly after, I began therapy and a year or so later meds. I made the owners a lot of money but knew nothing about 'taking care of myself'. One of those areas of self-care, which I'm still working on, is putting some 'go to hell' money in the bank.
> > I never realized that, coming from an alcoholic home, made the chaos and pressure of that job feel 'normal'. I thrived on the adrenaline. It almost killed me and, in the end, did kill my spirit.
> > All I'm saying is TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF. You don't have to prove you can take more and more pressure.
> > Sorry if this sounds preachy but self-care has to be a big part of our recovery. Your company has no real care for you as a person as far as I can tell. Even though they talk the talk, they are asking an awful lot. Their dynamics seem very reminiscent of the company I worked for.
> >
> > Just ramblin'
> > Phil
Posted by allisonm on September 13, 2000, at 14:37:49
In reply to Re: followup---Shar needs help to read post, posted by shar on September 13, 2000, at 12:27:18
Shar, here it is:
Everyone, thank you very very much for your responses. They have helped a lot.The meeting was harder than I anticipated. I had to defend myself in order to keep my position. At
this hour, I think I succeeded, but who knows what tomorrow will bring. In any case, I am going to have to act
saner than a sane person to prove myself from now on.I went in and said thanks, but a leave isn't necessary. That wasn't enough. My boss threw out impressions she'd
gotten from our last tumultuous meeting, so I had to back up and show her the stresses and situations leading up
to that hour. She brought up comments I had made
about questioning myself when one of my staff resigned recently. I said that's normal, and
again brought up all of the stresses from that day.She brought up how I admitted that in April things were bad. That I had told her that even the people I
supervised noticed it. I said, yes, I was experiencing a dip personally, but also, bad things were happening at
work and my people were not handling things well. There was a lot of hand-wringing and fussing about things,
and instead of telling them to suck it up or telling them they weren't doing or acting the way I thought they
should, I stayed silent because I didn't want to make the situation worse, so yes they did detect more silence and
avoidant behavior from
me. Then I pointed out that the stigma of mental illness is pervasive and long lasting. .. more than I thought, and I
regret ever mentioning
it because I think it's being used unfairly as a reason. I brought up how just the Friday before last my boss told
me what a great job I'd been
doing and how I have a spotless record.In my office, we do things in two distinct areas. She presented this plan to promote someone I supervise (I'll call
him "Fred") so that he would be in charge of One Thing and I would keep my salary and title, but I'd just be in
charge of the Other Thing instead of both and supervising Fred. My boss would supervise him instead. I said
looking at the face of it, that would be a demotion. She backed off some, said it was just an idea and we could
talk about it some more. Then I brought out
many reasons why it would not be a good idea. I told her that Fred's and my jobs in both areas are so
intertwined that they could not be easily split into divisions. He does the routine and happy stuff. I do the
administrative stuff, the larger, riskier, more serious projects, and I handle the hard situations when crises arise.
She said she was only looking to try to take some of the load off me so that things would not be so stressful. She
said things were only going to get more stressful as we begin a new mega project.I told her that since she was moved out of our office, we communicate only a fraction of what we did, and I
think that my once-a-week hourlong
meetings probably focused on the very worst of the week, which for the last 3 or 4 meetings have had to do with
personnel issues -- one person
quitting, another threatening to start looking for another job because he didn't think he'd gotten a big enough
raise, etc. I kept my cool. I
spoke calmly, matter-of-factly. I did not cry. I maintained eye contact for most of the time except when I was
working to phrase my most crucial
answers well.I offered to supply job descriptions of those in my department including mine. I asked her who else knew that
she'd proposed a leave. There are two - the big cheese and another lateral to her in the administration. I
mentioned the stigma again. I said I would get the job descriptions to her and we ended it there. It was a tense
ending (again). We were staring at each other. I think she was searching me to see what I was thinking, but I just
stared at her with pursed lips. I had nothing more
to say. I knew she wasn't happy with the way the meeting was ending. The air was thick. She knew I was
angry/bothered but was not about to talk
anymore about it.It was not long that I was back in my office when the phone rang. It was my boss. She said she'd listened
carefully to what I'd said and had been thinking about it. She said she went right away to the administrators and
told them that a leave was not necessary.She said that she thinks she read me wrong in our meeting last week and suggested leaving things as they are and
having her be in charge of the mega project and the "larger picture" planning. Fine with me. Frankly, we're
swamped. I told her in several different ways that I did not want to give up that one component of my job. I feel
my background gives me an edge in strategizing and I like to do that. I also pointed out that Fred is not so good
in crisis situations. She agreed.So it looks as though I'm still in charge of what I was before. We agreed we need more communication. It was
good before, because we could
pop into each other's offices and talk about the work at hand instead of setting up formal weekly meetings where
only the most urgent issues could be addressed. She needs to be more connected again so that she'll understand
just what pressures we're under. She hasn't been able to be as good an advocate since moving out.I told her I felt better. I know she felt better. So things seem smoothed out. I am still watching my back.
Go forward in thread:
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