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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2011, at 20:25:02
In reply to The Psychology of Occupy Wall Street, posted by ron1953 on December 6, 2011, at 8:57:54
> I never heard of "liberation psychology" before, either. An interesting article.
>
> http://www.alternet.org/story/153269/how_the_occupy_movement_helped_americans_move_beyond_denial_and_depression_to_action/?page=entireOriginally posted by Ron1953
Posted by ron1953 on December 8, 2011, at 14:46:52
I never heard of "liberation psychology" before, either. An interesting article.
Posted by Solstice on December 8, 2011, at 14:46:52
In reply to The Psychology of Occupy Wall Street, posted by ron1953 on December 6, 2011, at 8:57:54
> I never heard of "liberation psychology" before, either. An interesting article.
>
> http://www.alternet.org/story/153269/how_the_occupy_movement_helped_americans_move_beyond_denial_and_depression_to_action/?page=entire
I have not done a comprehensive review of the "occupy wall street" movement. My impressions are influenced by a lot of bits and pieces that I've heard along the way. I say all that to clarify that I am *not* an expert on it, and that there may be a lot more to it than I am aware of given my cursory reviews.What I thought was interesting about this article is it uses the term 'oppressed people" ..as if those who are victims of the economic crisis are "oppressed people"??
As someone who was laid off from an exciting and thriving career 2.5 years ago, I certainly have my fair share of anger regarding the crazy fraud that got us here (subprime lending, fraudulent mortgages, Madoff, to name just a few). Once I stopped reeling from the initial shock of being laid off (and I'm a single parent of three to boot), I went back to school while I tried to figure out what to do. So, I was enrolled in school within six weeks of being laid off. Anyway, I spent the next two years in a developing frenzy of looking for work, returning to college, finding a medical field program in need of people with degrees, and then all the hard work involved in getting through the program. It has been incredibly difficult, scary, and a financial nightmare. But, after two years, I just finished the program. I am graduating magna c*m laude with a 3.82 gpa, I passed the written part of the credentialing exam for my field, and there are three hospitals in the large medical center where I live that are pursuing me. It's been a very long road fraught with fright.. lots of setbacks in my recovery from depression.. just very, very hard. But now I'm in a place that is exciting. I've been working on-call for a local hospital, but soon I'll be employed full-time by one of three major hospitals, with benefits.
My point in saying all of this is that Yes - I am someone affected by the economic crisis. But those who are 'Occupying Wall Street" - why don't they occupy a retraining program? Occupy a college in a degree program in a field that is growing? If they do that.. then maybe they can join me and "occupy the workplace"!
I am fully aware of the seeming inequities of those who 'have' vs those who 'have-not.' There are a lot of things about life that are 'not fair' ..where some seem to get advantages that are denied others. But.. it's America! We are not a communist or socialist country where things are divided up and split evenly amongst the populace. Here - we are free to independently pursue our interests - to pursue new ideas.. to start our own business - to educate ourselves - to overcome adversity and become *who* we want to be - to experience a major setback (like being laid off) and to grief the loss of the work we loved and then pick ourselves up and find something else to love. We are free to succeed - and we are also free to fail. None of it is clear cut.. or 'simple' - there are many complex factors involved in the economy, politics, and social action like 'occupy wall street.' But in this country, I don't think there will be the kind of reform they seem to pursue. I don't think wealthy individuals or corporations will be un-rewarded for whatever it was that got them where they are. That's what being in America is all about. It's fundamental to this nation.. that if you figure out a way to be profitable and amass wealth, it won't be taken away unless you do it Bernie Madoff-style and get caught. And likewise, we are free to stay down when we fall down.. or when the rug gets pulled out from under us. And to be perfectly candid, if not for the motivational factor provided by being responsible for my children, there's a good chance that my depression may have won and I may be living under the grid, rather than looking at offers from three employers.. starting a career that is in an explosive area of medicine. What makes it complicated is that there are a lot of adversities we can face during our life that comes our way through no action on our part. Child abuse.. being born with physical or cognitive impairments that limit us, unknowingly getting ourselves into an adult relationship that turns out to be abusive.. being born into poverty.. the natural process of aging.. and on and on. Occupying Wall Street will not resolve the inherent inequities of life. We have to take the cards we have, and do the best we can with them. We can reach out for help from social service providers.
As for the psychology of the movement, I think the biggest problem is a belief that is persistent in the young adult generation that *everyone* is entitled to have whatever they want. They don't get it that they can pursue what they want - but there is no guarantee. It's up to each person to pursue it.. but *expecting* to get it just because they *want* it is problematic. We are so addicted to getting what we want, right now. On credit. Regardless of whether it's outside of our means. So in my view, the notion that we are 'entitled' is what drives 'Occupy Wall Street.'
Solstice
Posted by ron1953 on December 8, 2011, at 14:46:52
In reply to Re: The Psychology of Occupy Wall Street, posted by Solstice on December 6, 2011, at 11:06:38
Solstice, I'm glad that things worked out for you, and that your efforts effected that outcome.
But much of the content of your post looks to me like Social Darwinism, which is at the very core of current unrest. "If you can make it, fine. If you can't, you deserve to suffer."
Posted by emmanuel98 on December 8, 2011, at 14:46:53
In reply to Re: The Psychology of Occupy Wall Street, posted by ron1953 on December 6, 2011, at 17:27:51
Can we shy away from politics/economics here? This is what I do for a living and come here for respite.
Posted by ron1953 on December 8, 2011, at 14:46:53
In reply to Re: The Psychology of Occupy Wall Street, posted by emmanuel98 on December 6, 2011, at 18:54:58
I'm sorry, Emmanuel, I should have asked you first.
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2011, at 14:46:53
In reply to Re: The Psychology of Occupy Wall Street, posted by ron1953 on December 6, 2011, at 19:27:01
I put a link on Politics. There was already a discussion of OWS there.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/poli/20110926/msgs/1004340.html
Posted by Aquarius on December 8, 2011, at 20:19:48
In reply to Re: The Psychology of Occupy Wall Street, posted by Solstice on December 8, 2011, at 14:46:52
> My point in saying all of this is that Yes - I am someone affected by the economic crisis. But those who are 'Occupying Wall Street" - why don't they occupy a retraining program? Occupy a college in a degree program in a field that is growing? If they do that.. then maybe they can join me and "occupy the workplace"!
>
>I know retail is growing. Isn't the service industry always growing simply because of population growth? My gosh, if everyone pursues college, who will serve the wealthy at restaurants? Who will clean the homes of the wealthy? Who will pick the vegetables? Who will shingle the roofs of the $500,000 homes?
Nursing jobs are growing too. Not everyone has what it takes to work in the medical field. And not everyone is smart enough to pursue careers in statistics. And not everyone has the mental stamina to pursue careers in engineering or hard sciences. And especially-not everyone has the luxury of having someone to watch their children so that they are able to pursue retraining.
I'm not a member of Occupy Wallstreet, probably because I am depleted of all my mental energy from chasing the "American Dream". Another reason is that I am probably jaded. But I am glad to see people willing and able to stand up for those who may not be willing and able.
I put myself through school as a single mother as well, working full-time throughout much of my studies to support my small family. Yes, it was draining. My mental health problems escalted, and my health deteriorated from the stress, so I quit my job just prior to graduating with my Master's degree, thinking I could survive a couple of semesters on student loans to hang in there. Oops, the economy crashed and hiring freezed.
Apparently, I picked the wrong major even though the Department of Labor's statistics showed, and still show, growth in my field. I am now overqualified for jobs, but I suppose I was lucky to be taken on by a small company to work at a job that requires no education (and small, thus no advancement opportunities). Now I earn the same--in nominal dollars--that I earned 20 years ago. If compared in real dollars, perhaps I earn $5 an hour. Only now, I carry a huge student loan debt, of which only some carry the option of deferrment, and I make "too much money" to qualify for any type of government assistance. Maybe some feel I deserve my fate for the mistakes I made.
There's a lot of luck involved in how far I've gotten, and I was lucky to be born intelligent. I was lucky to have been born to intellectual parents. And I was lucky to have been born with a certain temperment that allowed me to survive my nightmare childhood as my siblings did not fare so well.
So I have a few months before my house is sold at a sheriff's sale. The realtors I contacted told me I'd have to list my home for considerably less than what I owe. Oops, should have thought of that before I bought it 10 years ago.
The government gave billions to those who grew rich off of the housing market. Do you even know how difficult it is to obtain a mortgage modification through the government's "homeowner's assistance" program? Did you know financial organizations in charge of allocating these funds were sued by various state Attorney Generals for knowingly creating barriers that prevented homeowner's from obtaining these funds? Did you know government policies were created to give tax breaks to those who have enough liquid assets to buy foreclosed houses off people like me? If it's not opression, what would you call that kind of power-the power of those who can successfully solicit the government for handouts, while people like me are thrown out in the streets?
Every low-cost rental I looked at so far does credit checks. I looked into dumpy extended-stay hotels in my city, and there are none in proximity of my employer. I cannot afford to live in a hotel AND afford transportation to get to work. Yet, if I default on my student loans, it will bar me from many employmers. I am afraid to apply for jobs that require background checks. If they have 100 applicants with a clean credit history, why would they hire someone with credit that is now destroyed? For all they know, I could be irresponsible or unethical.
How is it that people who have assets and savings feel they are entitled to receive unemployment benefits? Why is it that multi-millionaires feel they are entitled to social security checks just because they paid into the system? All kinds of citizens pay taxes for services they don't use. Many people even die from stress before they are old enough to collect social security. Who are the one's with entitlement? How is this for an idea-those who think people don't deserve help can simply forgoe their benefits.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe the credit checks required for employment and living and transportation are opressive to people who had some bad luck, those who made some mistakes, the imperfect, the downtrodden...while many who reaped huge profits are not oppressed from operating their businesses, despite poor financial management? Did it occur to you that the U.S. government who mismanaged the budget, spent more than it earned--will not hire people who have bad credit for many jobs? Who has the freedom here?
Your solution might have worked for you, and that's great. But I think a better solution would be for those against sharing the wealth simply forgoe their social benefits-namely, social security, medicare, and unemployment.
This is nothing personal to you, but this is the type of thinking that fuels my decisions at the voting polls. I don't even agree with probably half of the (non-social) policies of Democrats, but I will never, ever, ever vote Republican.
Aside from retirement benefits, social safety nets cost peanuts compared with what this government spends outside of social capital. Yet, the republican party knows exactly how to appeal to the un/der educated. Who has the power to influence government spending? Education is power. The poor are not as educated as the wealthy. The poor do not have that power. Occupy Wallstreet is a threat to those who do have the power.
Posted by Dinah on December 9, 2011, at 20:54:07
In reply to Re: The Psychology of Occupy Wall Street, posted by Solstice on December 8, 2011, at 14:46:52
I don't think it really gained any momentum in our area.
I think I'd feel better about the movement if they would quit claiming to speak for the 99%. I'm one of the 99% too, and they don't have my permission to speak for me. Nor would they be doing a good job of it.
I did think of staging a counterprotest if I had heard of any occupying of retailers on Black Friday. I don't even shop on Black Friday (and as seldom as possible on any day), but I'd have made a special effort to go out and patronize any store targeted. I was *that* angry. However, I didn't hear of any local activity.
I'd like it better if they claimed to speak for themselves and admitted that they were pushing the ideas *they* think best for the 99%. I have an automatic aversion to anyone claiming to speak for me, particularly if they really aren't. My kneejerk reaction to seeing someone carrying a placard saying they are the 99% is to jump up and down and screech that they may be part of the 99%, but the 99% is not a monolith and they do not speak for me.
Sigh. I be very bad at making slogans. I'd fill them so full of disclaimers, they'd sound like a Prozac commercial.
*** I am speaking only for myself, part of the 99%, and do not have the authority or ability to speak for any other part of the 99%. Nor do I have the right to suggest that my views would not be acceptable to some part of the 1%, who are not a monolith and who probably represent a wide range of views.
Posted by Dinah on December 9, 2011, at 20:56:01
In reply to Re: The Psychology of Occupy Wall Street » Solstice, posted by Dinah on December 9, 2011, at 20:54:07
I think I forgot a "would" in the second to last paragraph.
I'm very tired.
Posted by Aquarius on December 11, 2011, at 14:22:08
In reply to The Psychology of Occupy Wall Street, posted by ron1953 on December 8, 2011, at 14:46:52
Thanks for the article, Ron. I meant to comment before but was feeling pissed. It was interesting, and I could relate. Have citizens done much protesting since Vietnam? That was an energizing time.
It just makes me angry when I hear people say, yeah, umm, I was affected by the economy. I just traded in my 2010 Lexus for a 1985 Hyundi and was fine. I was responsible. If only everyone did the same as me!
And when people respond, "but I can't do that" because of this or that, they get accused of being a victim, like on Fox News. Meanwhile, I never had a 2010 Lexus to trade in to begin with!!!
Posted by floatingbridge on December 12, 2011, at 4:11:17
In reply to The Psychology of Occupy Wall Street, posted by ron1953 on December 8, 2011, at 14:46:52
> I never heard of "liberation psychology" before, either. An interesting article.
>
> http://www.alternet.org/story/153269/how_the_occupy_movement_helped_americans_move_beyond_denial_and_depression_to_action/?page=entireNor had I. Thank you. I want to do some further reading.
Posted by floatingbridge on December 12, 2011, at 12:26:16
In reply to Re: The Psychology of Occupy Wall Street » Solstice, posted by Dinah on December 9, 2011, at 20:54:07
Dinah,
You know, you've kinda' nailed it here for me. I have not been comfortable with the slogan myself, though I stand with what in theory and in actuality is often at the heart of what is being said and stood for.
Black Friday? Our family does not leave the house. We buy absolutely nothing. I understand from where the name derives, but sometimes I feel there are no coincidences. At least when it makes ironic sense as in this case.
>
> I think I'd feel better about the movement if they would quit claiming to speak for the 99%. I'm one of the 99% too, and they don't have my permission to speak for me. Nor would they be doing a good job of it.l
>
> I did think of staging a counterprotest if I had heard of any occupying of retailers on Black Friday. I don't even shop on Black Friday (and as seldom as possible on any day), but I'd have made a special effort to go out and patronize any store targeted. I was *that* angry. However, I didn't hear of any local activity.
>
> I'd like it better if they claimed to speak for themselves and admitted that they were pushing the ideas *they* think best for the 99%. I have an automatic aversion to anyone claiming to speak for me, particularly if they really aren't. My kneejerk reaction to seeing someone carrying a placard saying they are the 99% is to jump up and down and screech that they may be part of the 99%, but the 99% is not a monolith and they do not speak for me.
>
> Sigh. I be very bad at making slogans. I'd fill them so full of disclaimers, they'd sound like a Prozac commercial.
>
> *** I am speaking only for myself, part of the 99%, and do not have the authority or ability to speak for any other part of the 99%. Nor do I have the right to suggest that my views would not be acceptable to some part of the 1%, who are not a monolith and who probably represent a wide range of views.
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2011, at 17:36:37
In reply to Re: The Psychology of Occupy Wall Street » Dinah, posted by floatingbridge on December 12, 2011, at 12:26:16
I don't care much for crowds. I'm not phobic like my father was. But it's unpleasant for me. Except Christmas Eve. For some reason on Christmas Eve I often enjoy the bustle.
If I could purchase everything over the internet in a cost effective way, I likely would.
Which also doesn't benefit small business owners. :) I do try to go to local restaurants over chains, and I never step foot in grocery stores that aren't local (though my husband does), and if it's possible I buy at local hardware stores. In short, if there's a viable alternative, I try to take it. It's not just supporting the small businesses. In some ways, you lose flavor when you lose local business. Chili's might have good food, but local seafood restaurants are what make New Orleans special to me. The chain groceries have shelf upon shelf of popular items, and a selection of less popular ones. My local groceries have a few of everything I can imagine wanting and will bend over backwards to make sure I have what I need. I can speak to someone in the soft drink department, who will go check their stock. Moreover, it's the same person next time I return and in a short while that person will know me. :)
Hmmm... I need to except Whole Foods there. I don't go there often, but I do step foot in it, and there are some things I can't get elsewhere.
I have no real nostalgia over small bookstores. My recollections are of places with limited stock, where you pretty much had to want what was there because there was no real way to know what wasn't there. I was delighted with the first Barnes & Noble, and thrilled out of my mind when I found Amazon. Imagine wanting to find a book on waterfalls, and having the pick of every book on waterfalls now in print, and quite a few not in print. Mmmmmm.....
On the other hand, if I were to meet with harassment on a trip to a chain store, I'm just stubborn enough to stand in solidarity with that chain store and patronize them deliberately.
Posted by sigismund on December 13, 2011, at 0:48:35
In reply to Re: The Psychology of Occupy Wall Street » floatingbridge, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2011, at 17:36:37
>. In some ways, you lose flavor when you lose local business
In the 70s Coles and Woolworths had around 30% of the market (here). Now it is near 80%. So the corner shops have shut and its all freeways.
It is in the interests of every society to have a viable middle class with purchasing power. And some local flavour!
My feeling is (and I am just guessing) that the various components of being an American (individualism, responsibility?) have somehow lead (well, not lead) to a severe kind of hammering. I often feel naive speaking to Americans, likely because they have had to put up with stuff I have only just heard about.
Posted by floatingbridge on December 13, 2011, at 15:28:33
In reply to Re: The Psychology of Occupy Wall Street » floatingbridge, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2011, at 17:36:37
I split my book dollars between Amazon and my favorite independent. But we have a great independent bookstore! I mean fantastic. The owner is even our progressive ex-mayor.
They run circles around the Goliath Borders in evey way except inventory mass. Borders is gone now anyways.
I love surfing Amazon. Even more, I love buying a used book for one cent and paying three ninety-nine shipping.
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2011, at 16:46:06
In reply to Re: The Psychology of Occupy Wall Street » Dinah, posted by floatingbridge on December 13, 2011, at 15:28:33
Me too!
I have to be really careful to try to get rid of as many books as I buy, or the house will run out of available volume.
Posted by Beckett on April 13, 2012, at 22:11:45
In reply to Re: The Psychology of Occupy Wall Street, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2011, at 20:25:02
I found this cheering news today.... This and that North Korea's nuclear project hit an unexpected setback.
Months After Zuccotti Park Eviction, Occupy Wall Street Springs Up Outside New York Stock Exchange
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/4/13/months_after_zuccotti_park_eviction_occupy
JUAN GONZALEZ: Occupy Wall Street protesters are camping out again in downtown Manhattan, now across the street from the Stock Exchange. For the past four nights, dozens of activists have camped outside as they prepare for a major day of action on May Day. This marks the first time Occupy Wall Street activists have set up an encampment in the Financial District since New York police raided Zuccotti Park five months ago. Democracy Now! spoke with some of the activists last night.
GEORGE MACHADO: My name is George Machado. This is Wall Street. This is wherefor people, where the heart of all this economic injustice in the world comes from and exists. So were here standing in the face of that in blatant, explicit contest to that. And were also using this space to face outward to all the people who move through here, bothand trying to enter in conversation and not just be confrontational and agitating.
JOSÉ MARTÍN: So, my names José Martín. And now weve finally come out, using a law that was passed in 2000 by court order, to demonstrate on the sidewalk right across from the New York Stock Exchange, one of the main financial institutions in this country that is actuallyis allowing the bankers to profit off of the debt of students, of workers, as well as the starvation of 20 million people every year, the homelessness of more than 10,000 people in this city alone, as well as many others across the planet, and the exploitation of workers in the earth, the world over.
This is the end of the thread.
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