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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Sigismund on February 23, 2009, at 19:43:36
It is north west of Islamabad, and is the next casualty of the wretched battle between fundamentalisms.
136 schools destroyed, so girls do not go anymore.
The shia and sufi faiths replaced by Wahhabi petrodollar funded fundamentalism.
It has a long way to run.http://farm1.static.flickr.com/36/113938626_9d80646953.jpg
http://www.paff.org.pk/media/images/013%20-%20Swat%20Valley.jpg
The only positive in the whole mess that I can see is that the US has a president who understands something of the complexity of the world.
Posted by Neal on February 23, 2009, at 23:14:44
In reply to The Swat Valley, posted by Sigismund on February 23, 2009, at 19:43:36
you sound like you know what you're talking about. Do you have personal experience there or in the area? I've been reading about the area in the Economist.
Why are the schools destroyed?
Posted by Sigismund on February 24, 2009, at 0:12:36
In reply to Re: The Swat Valley, posted by Neal on February 23, 2009, at 23:14:44
>you sound like you know what you're talking about.
Not very likely
>Do you have personal experience there or in the area?None at all. Just travel books about the Old Silk Road. I've been to India a couple of times, but never to Kashmir. But it is a part of the world I think was once really beautiful and has been comprehensively trashed, with this as the latest installment.
>I've been reading about the area in the Economist.What were they talking about in that?
>Why are the schools destroyed?To stop girls attending school?
Because the schools were secular?
Which takes us back to fundamentalism as a response to threat. Maybe?There was a TV program I watched last night....'Pakistan on the Brink' kind of thing. It seems to be where things are happening.
Posted by Sigismund on February 24, 2009, at 16:17:34
In reply to Re: The Swat Valley, posted by Sigismund on February 24, 2009, at 0:12:36
Years ago now, Paddy Ashdown wondered if it would come to civil war throughout the Islamic world.
This is a really good article...
http://www.truthout.org/012509D?print
and the only hope in it is that the new US administration may be able to make a better job out of existing realities.
Posted by Sigismund on February 24, 2009, at 16:19:25
In reply to Re: The Swat Valley )Neal, posted by Sigismund on February 24, 2009, at 16:17:34
"Descent Into Chaos" by Ahmed Rashid.
I should get it.
Posted by Neal on February 25, 2009, at 2:11:11
In reply to Re: The Swat Valley )Neal, posted by Sigismund on February 24, 2009, at 16:19:25
The Economist was talking about the political situatin in Pakistan. The mountains of the NW Frontier area are rife with gun battles of rival factions. They noted that the majority of Pakistani's live in the urban areas of the Punjab.
It's not out of the question for Pakistan to lose control of the situation and anarchy to take over. The economy is going into the dumpster.
The army is playing games with the Americans; pretending to do something about the Taliban problem in Pakistan.
Posted by fayeroe on February 25, 2009, at 13:06:33
In reply to Re: The Swat Valley )Neal, posted by Sigismund on February 24, 2009, at 16:17:34
Posted by Sigismund on February 25, 2009, at 15:16:47
In reply to Re: The Swat Valley )Neal, posted by Neal on February 25, 2009, at 2:11:11
I imagine that it is way beyond the army's control?
The political strategy should be to minimise long term sense of threat to people of the Islamic faith. No more invasions of Islamic peoples for starters. At the time in the US there seemed to be this feeling (could be projection) that Afghanistan was not enough butt to kick. This is taking foreign policy down to the level of the schoolyard, which is perhaps where it mostly always is.
All these kids who volunteer have a pan-Islamic identity, and are responding to the threat they see to their brothers and sisters from Gaza to Kabul.
It would be nice if western foreign policy did not have to live with a wreckage from the Mediterranean to the Arabian Seas on its conscience.
President Obama's comment that Iran had a complex history was very encouraging.
[Being on the receiving end of poison gas from Saddam, supplied (one feels obliged to ask) by whom? Maybe he made it himself?
The stuff used in Halabja wasn't though. That was made in (wait for it) Germany.]
Posted by fayeroe on February 25, 2009, at 15:36:52
In reply to Re: The Swat Valley, posted by Sigismund on February 25, 2009, at 15:16:47
> I imagine that it is way beyond the army's control?
>
> The political strategy should be to minimise long term sense of threat to people of the Islamic faith. No more invasions of Islamic peoples for starters. At the time in the US there seemed to be this feeling (could be projection) that Afghanistan was not enough butt to kick. This is taking foreign policy down to the level of the schoolyard, which is perhaps where it mostly always is.On a idiotic level starting with my family...my brother thinks that President Obama is "muslim" and therefore must be associated with "those muslims" that "bombed" NYC.
Of course, at the time, it looked more "warlike" to pursue Saddam Hussein because he had been placed on our minds (MSM) and he was "scary" looking. "He looks evil." A state department official added that gem to the war talk.
Launching a full out war on Afghanistan would not be the "flowers will greet us" event that going to Iraq would be. I'll never, ever forget Cheney saying "we'll greeted with flowers, we are liberating these people"....something like that. I'm sure I mangled it. By saying that he brought an image to the American pie like the corsage on homecoming night, the flowers for mom, etc. etc. Karl Rove knew how to spin things for the "good ole boys" that make up America.....
Get me started!!!
>
> All these kids who volunteer have a pan-Islamic identity, and are responding to the threat they see to their brothers and sisters from Gaza to Kabul.
>
> It would be nice if western foreign policy did not have to live with a wreckage from the Mediterranean to the Arabian Seas on its conscience.Well, we do live it. It makes me sick.
>
> President Obama's comment that Iran had a complex history was very encouraging.
> [Being on the receiving end of poison gas from Saddam, supplied (one feels obliged to ask) by whom? Maybe he made it himself?
> The stuff used in Halabja wasn't though. That was made in (wait for it) Germany.]Look up what Ross Perot said about us interfering in the Middle East.
Posted by Sigismund on February 25, 2009, at 16:39:43
In reply to Re: The Swat Valley » Sigismund, posted by fayeroe on February 25, 2009, at 15:36:52
This perception that President Obama is a Muslim is particularly interesting, and might say a lot about what the identity of a non-Muslim is made up of?
I wonder how many people believe this?
At a level of great abstraction, it might make some sense.
It brings to mind Binyamin Netenyahu (sp?) addressing that Christian prayer breakfast thing they have in Washington (The Family?) and saying to them something along the lines of 'Israel has no better friends than those in this room.'
It stands out for me because I am just old enough to remember Christian antisemitism.
Posted by fayeroe on February 25, 2009, at 19:24:37
In reply to Re: The Swat Valley, posted by Sigismund on February 25, 2009, at 16:39:43
> This perception that President Obama is a Muslim is particularly interesting, and might say a lot about what the identity of a non-Muslim is made up of?
I asked my brother what he was basing his claim on regarding President Obama. He told me that he heard it on a news program on television. Do you remember that the Repugs tried to paint him with that brush?
I asked him what McCain was and he said "a good ole white boy"......I hung the phone up on that one.
>
> I wonder how many people believe this?Many, many, many. Particularly in the red states. I bet I could go into Oklahoma tomorrow and find at least 4 out of 10 who would make that statement.
>
> At a level of great abstraction, it might make some sense.
>
> It brings to mind Binyamin Netenyahu (sp?) addressing that Christian prayer breakfast thing they have in Washington (The Family?) and saying to them something along the lines of 'Israel has no better friends than those in this room.'I didn't know that.
> It stands out for me because I am just old enough to remember Christian antisemitism.yeah.
Posted by Deputy Dinah on February 27, 2009, at 0:47:00
In reply to Re: The Swat Valley » Sigismund, posted by fayeroe on February 25, 2009, at 19:24:37
> Do you remember that the Repugs tried to paint him with that brush?
Please don't post anything (such as "repugs") that could lead others, including Republicans, to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob has already weighed in on this decision but feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by fayeroe on February 27, 2009, at 10:35:02
In reply to Please be civil » fayeroe, posted by Deputy Dinah on February 27, 2009, at 0:47:00
Posted by Neal on March 18, 2009, at 14:46:47
In reply to Re: The Swat Valley, posted by Sigismund on February 25, 2009, at 15:16:47
_
Well, as to the Middle East, it's all about oil, isn't it. We wouldn't give a rat's **s what happened there if there weren't oil in the equation. And, to complicate matters, Israel.It's interesting to watch the film LAWRENCE OF ARABIA, which is a great film, to see the issues there, which are so similar to what's happening now.
As to Afganistan-Pakistan, we're only there to give Al-Queda or the Taliban someone to shoot at, rather than plan attacks on New York. If there's another attack on the U.S. on a large scale, all bets are off.
I don't think a nuclear Iran is a good idea. A nation sitting on an ocean of oil doesn't need nuclear power, although that's what they claim. I've seen pictures of the American flag painted on the sidewalk so people can walk on it, etc., so I'm not impressed with their pleas of innocence. A theocratic nuclear power is not a good thing, IMO.
_
Posted by Sigismund on March 21, 2009, at 21:31:16
In reply to Re: The Swat Valley, posted by Neal on March 18, 2009, at 14:46:47
Hi Neal
I've just finished "Descent into Chaos" by Ahmed Rashid.
I had not realised Pakistan (or the allied effort in Afghanistan) was such a mess.
Good book.
I have almost zero hope for the world, but Obama gives me a little.
Posted by Sigismund on March 21, 2009, at 21:47:10
In reply to Re: The Swat Valley » Neal, posted by Sigismund on March 21, 2009, at 21:31:16
I've always seen the US through the prism of US foreign policy, giving (it is fair to say) an anti-American tinge to my thinking.
However I greatly admire American teachers, and particularly the one involved in this project, and of course the heartwarming way in which President Obama responded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WMTTrOrKVIand for Obama's response
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