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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rayww on November 19, 2008, at 22:39:02
How Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats to Religious Freedom
The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty has just completed a study of 1000 state laws and concluded that at least 350 of them would likely trigger liability for conscientious objectors, including religious organizations, should same-sex marriage be recognized.
Their conclusion was that Legal recognition of same-sex marriagewhether imposed by courts or enacted by legislaturesposes a great threat to freedom of conscience that has been honored in this country before the Founding.
They recommend that legislatures amend state anti-discrimination statutes now to include robust exemptions for those with religious or other conscientious objections to same-sex marriage.
They conclude that, Lawsuits will likely arise when religious people or religious organizations choose, based on their sincerely held religious beliefs, not to hire individuals in same-sex marriages, refuse to extend spousal benefits to same-sex spouses, refuse to make their property or services available for same-sex marriage ceremonies or other events affirming same-sex marriage, or refuse to provide otherwise available housing to same-sex couples. This wide-ranging conflict between governments and conscientious citizens would take years of litigation to resolve, assuming that it could be resolved.
The state provisions that trigger the threat to religious liberty include anti-discrimination laws based on sexual orientation, gender, and marital status. The report notes that Because gender discrimination laws are on the books in all 50 states, moral objections to same-sex marriage could be treated as a form of gender discrimination in every state.
Thirty-seven of these states have some kind of religious exemptions in their laws, but most of these are quite narrow and only apply to certain categories of religious activity.
To read the full report from the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty click here. http://www.becketfund.org/files/34a97.pdf
Posted by fayeroe on November 20, 2008, at 10:16:09
In reply to Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats, posted by rayww on November 19, 2008, at 22:39:02
Shaking head.
Posted by Toph on November 20, 2008, at 11:11:32
In reply to Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats, posted by rayww on November 19, 2008, at 22:39:02
Let me see if I follow this -- some religious groups fear that legalizing same-sex marriages may have the consequence that these groups could no longer descriminate against gays as they are accustomed.
Posted by fayeroe on November 20, 2008, at 11:20:49
In reply to Re: Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats, posted by Toph on November 20, 2008, at 11:11:32
Posted by caraher on November 20, 2008, at 14:16:27
In reply to Re: Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats, posted by Toph on November 20, 2008, at 11:11:32
Right. We must be ever mindful of the REAL victims of discrimination here - the people who have religious justifications for discrimination.
After all, what group was more egregiously discriminated against when interracial marriage became legal in all 50 states than people who believed such marriages were an abomination?
And thus ended religious freedom in the United States - dead for at least 40 years now, I think, by this reasoning.
Posted by rayww on November 20, 2008, at 14:20:36
In reply to Re: Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats, posted by Toph on November 20, 2008, at 11:11:32
> Let me see if I follow this -- some religious groups fear that legalizing same-sex marriages may have the consequence that these groups could no longer descriminate against gays as they are accustomed.
You always want to spin it to be discrimination. You refer to "religious groups", as though it is the people who make the rules, but it is the religion. The Bible does not discriminate, it simply tells the truth. Religion uses the Bible as its guide, and encourages people to follow its pattern through life. I'm sure Jesus encountered people who were gay. Did He discriminate? Of course not. What He says to one He says to all. "Come, Follow Me".
I totally understand the threat to religion, and think the government should take a careful look.
There has to be two sides so go ahead, let's hear yours. I won't be offended. :-)
Posted by Nadezda on November 20, 2008, at 15:09:49
In reply to Re: Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats » Toph, posted by rayww on November 20, 2008, at 14:20:36
Since Jesus saw no threat to religion from gay people, you might to want to consider that as the actions of a role model.
Since Jesus, on your account, did not discriminate, perhaps you might want to consider working against discrimination against gay people.
Perhaps that would be the best approach for a religious person.
Oh-- and by the way, we are not "spinning it to be discrimination." It IS discrimination not to hire or rent to or allow gay people to eat at your lunch counter. I suspect Jesus would have hired, rented to, and wanted gay people to eat at his lunch counter.
So again, perhaps as a religious person, you might want to work for those things.
Nadezda
Posted by rayww on November 20, 2008, at 16:41:26
In reply to Re: Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats » rayww, posted by Nadezda on November 20, 2008, at 15:09:49
> Since Jesus saw no threat to religion from gay people, you might to want to consider that as the actions of a role model.
>
> Since Jesus, on your account, did not discriminate, perhaps you might want to consider working against discrimination against gay people.
>
> Perhaps that would be the best approach for a religious person.
>
> Oh-- and by the way, we are not "spinning it to be discrimination." It IS discrimination not to hire or rent to or allow gay people to eat at your lunch counter. I suspect Jesus would have hired, rented to, and wanted gay people to eat at his lunch counter.
>
> So again, perhaps as a religious person, you might want to work for those things.
>
>
> Nadezda
(assuming you are speaking for the gay)
I suppose we do both live on the same planet, even though we live in different worlds.I honestly do not know what goes on in other Christian religions, but I know my own, and I don't think it has ever been an issue right here. Frankly I hope that the majority of our town stays straight, because I know of the problems faced in communities when straight seems like the minority. Like I said, we have to share the planet, but we live in different worlds.
I'm on the side of religion, and I think that to make same sex marriage legal, would open up a pile of law suits against conscientious objector religions. 360 laws out of 1000 is no small amount.
You said "Jesus did not discriminate". Jesus taught everyone. He spoke to everyone. He didn't stick his nose up or ignore anyone or any problem. He understood the difference between sin and repentance.
Paul (in the Bible) labeled his problem "a thorn in the flesh" and said he wished he did not have it, and begged God would remove it from him, but God didn't. Why? There was a reason for Paul to live with whatever "thorn" was in the flesh.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=thorn&do=Search
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_tim/1/2,18#2I'm not saying that Paul was gay, but the Bible does not say he wasn't. I prefer to think he may have been, and I use Paul as my example. How would I feel about Paul? That is how I feel about you. Only you aren't the greatest missionary the world has ever seen for Jesus Christ, and you (if you represent the gay) probably act on your passion. That's the main difference.
How DO you feel about Jesus? Do you trust Him?
Posted by fayeroe on November 20, 2008, at 17:12:46
In reply to Re: Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats » Toph, posted by rayww on November 20, 2008, at 14:20:36
"He/she who is without sin shall cast the first stone." Did I get that correct?
Posted by fayeroe on November 20, 2008, at 17:26:55
In reply to Re: Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats » Nadezda, posted by rayww on November 20, 2008, at 16:41:26
http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/ent/columnists/mt
Will is my old boss. I am blessed to have him as a friend. Annie Proulx is one of my favourite writers. (Ms. Proulx wrote "Brokeback Mountain")
p.s. David Anderson is one of the finest men that I've met in my life.
Posted by fayeroe on November 20, 2008, at 17:31:43
In reply to Re: Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats » rayww, posted by Nadezda on November 20, 2008, at 15:09:49
You said: "Oh-- and by the way, we are not "spinning it to be discrimination." It IS discrimination not to hire or rent to or allow gay people to eat at your lunch counter. I suspect Jesus would have hired, rented to, and wanted gay people to eat at his lunch counter."
I believe that the spinning that is going on here is in the above posts....We can't spin the truth. Pat
Posted by Deputy Dinah on November 20, 2008, at 17:37:34
In reply to Re: Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats » Toph, posted by rayww on November 20, 2008, at 14:20:36
> You always want to spin it to be discrimination.
You've recently been asked to follow the civility guidelines of this site. So I'm going to have to block you from posting for one week.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override or upgrade any deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Deputy Dinah on November 20, 2008, at 17:42:16
In reply to Re: Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats » Nadezda, posted by fayeroe on November 20, 2008, at 17:31:43
> I believe that the spinning that is going on here is in the above posts....We can't spin the truth. Pat
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Deputy Dinah on November 20, 2008, at 17:43:48
In reply to Re: Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats, posted by caraher on November 20, 2008, at 14:16:27
> Right. We must be ever mindful of the REAL victims of discrimination here - the people who have religious justifications for discrimination.
Please don't be sarcastic, or post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Deputy Dinah on November 20, 2008, at 17:45:15
In reply to Re: Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats, posted by Toph on November 20, 2008, at 11:11:32
> Let me see if I follow this -- some religious groups fear that legalizing same-sex marriages may have the consequence that these groups could no longer descriminate against gays as they are accustomed.
> Right. We must be ever mindful of the REAL victims of discrimination here - the people who have religious justifications for discrimination.
Please don't be sarcastic, or post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by fayeroe on November 20, 2008, at 17:59:24
In reply to Please be civil » fayeroe, posted by Deputy Dinah on November 20, 2008, at 17:42:16
Posted by Toph on November 21, 2008, at 5:48:19
In reply to Please be civil » Toph, posted by Deputy Dinah on November 20, 2008, at 17:45:15
> > Let me see if I follow this -- some religious groups fear that legalizing same-sex marriages may have the consequence that these groups could no longer descriminate against gays as they are accustomed.
>
> > Right. We must be ever mindful of the REAL victims of discrimination here - the people who have religious justifications for discrimination.
>
> Please don't be sarcastic, or post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
>
> If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>
> Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
>
> Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
>
> Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
>I didn't write the second paragraph, just the first which wasn't sarcastic, only incredulous. But if that is not civil, I'm sorry.
Posted by Toph on November 21, 2008, at 5:55:53
In reply to Re: Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats » Toph, posted by rayww on November 20, 2008, at 14:20:36
> I totally understand the threat to religion, and think the government should take a careful look.
>
> There has to be two sides so go ahead, let's hear yours. I won't be offended. :-)I would defer to the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment to the United States Consitution.
Posted by BayLeaf on November 22, 2008, at 19:15:06
In reply to Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats, posted by rayww on November 19, 2008, at 22:39:02
"For The Bible Tells Me So"
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Tells-Me-So/dp/B000YHQNCI
They also have a website of the same name.
Posted by Sigismund on November 23, 2008, at 18:12:27
In reply to Re: Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats » rayww, posted by Nadezda on November 20, 2008, at 15:09:49
Yes
What happened to Jesus?
Does all this come from Leviticus?
Posted by Sigismund on November 23, 2008, at 18:16:01
In reply to Re: Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats » Nadezda, posted by Sigismund on November 23, 2008, at 18:12:27
There is a prohibition in Leviticus on eating the flesh of gryphons, or so I have heard.
Does anyone know?
How do I google that?
Posted by Sigismund on November 23, 2008, at 18:23:09
In reply to Re: Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats, posted by Sigismund on November 23, 2008, at 18:16:01
I can never find anything so I've lost my Little Green Book by the Ayotollah Khomeini and can't remember the quote.
But I do remember that of the things which are impure, the sweat of the excrement-eating camel was one of the big ones.
Posted by Sigismund on November 23, 2008, at 18:27:23
In reply to Impurity, posted by Sigismund on November 23, 2008, at 18:23:09
>Several lines on we reach (11:20): "All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you." "Fowl" obviously includes all birds, but how many birds go upon all fours? The most famous four-legged "avian" I know is -- a gryphon!
From a google search.
Posted by Nadezda on November 23, 2008, at 19:11:45
In reply to Re: Same-Sex Marriage Triggers Threats, posted by Sigismund on November 23, 2008, at 18:16:01
If you put "leviticus" and "gryphons" into the search box, you'll come up with a bunch of answers.
Apparently, according to one:
"The eleventh chapter of Leviticus begins: "And the Lord spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth."
There follows a long list of animals that the Israelites can eat, plus a list of creatures "Of their flesh shall ye not eat." Eventually we reach the bird kingdom:
11:13-14: "And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the osprey, And the vulture, and the kite after his kind. . ."
Several lines on we reach (11:20): "All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you." "Fowl" obviously includes all birds, but how many birds go upon all fours? The most famous four-legged "avian" I know is -- a gryphon!"
hmmmmmmmm.
but is there any such thing as a gryphon? Can you not eat a mythical being?
Nadezda
Posted by Sigismund on November 25, 2008, at 15:38:26
In reply to Impurity, posted by Sigismund on November 23, 2008, at 18:23:09
>[from Chapter 11, On Purity and Impurity]
>There are eleven things which are impure: urine, excrement, sperm, bones, blood, dogs, pigs, non-Moslem men and women, wine, beer, and the sweat of the excrement-eating camel.
This is the end of the thread.
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