![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by caraher on September 3, 2008, at 23:02:26
Sounds like, behind the scenes, a lot of Republicans are prepared to break out the white flags
Posted by Sigismund on September 4, 2008, at 4:02:25
In reply to Open Mic Night at the RNC, posted by caraher on September 3, 2008, at 23:02:26
Don't you believe it.
I have told hotmail that this is spam but I keep getting it, again and again..
Here is a sample.
http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/obama_sutton_saudi/2008/09/03/127490.html?s=al&promo_code=692E-1
What price self-righteousness (it's a species thing)?
Posted by Sigismund on September 4, 2008, at 4:16:16
In reply to Open Mic Night at the RNC, posted by caraher on September 3, 2008, at 23:02:26
Let me remind you of what your president said (just now!)
'People in Louisiana must know there is a lot of prayer on their side.'
Posted by Sigismund on September 4, 2008, at 14:09:54
In reply to Re: Open Mic Night at the RNC » caraher, posted by Sigismund on September 4, 2008, at 4:16:16
Let me try to be less cryptic. Your president appears on the TV after I have had a few drinks and I am momentarily unhinged. Just as well I live here.
The teachings of Jesus, the American constitution, all are subject to our capacity for error, which becomes the stuff history is made of. One leader doesn't mean much. A decade of leadership means more. Good leaders perhaps know how to work with the grain of their people's temperaments. Perhaps this lot of leaders will do better. But the problem is in us. In Australia it was a failure of generosity. I can't read the US well enough, but it seems tied up with national pride and religion. Given that the teachings of Jesus ended in the wars of religion in Europe, perhaps you are not doing too badly. I must properly read Andrew Bacevich's "The Limits of Power" and "The New American Militarism". All the best commentary comes from old fashioned conservatives.
Posted by Nadezda on September 4, 2008, at 16:56:16
In reply to Open Mic Night at the RNC, posted by caraher on September 3, 2008, at 23:02:26
I'm not expecting any white flags. Not just yet.
Anyone see the speech last night? I really have no patience for demeaning other candidates on a personal level. What really impresses me about Obama, among other things, is his commitment to talking about issues, and disagreeing about substance, not issuing insulting comments on other people, even if he disagrees with them.
Although I think it's a mistake to get sidetracked into judgments about family, doesn't it invite that, when you bring your family out front as a talking point and center of your argument that you deserve to be VP?
Nadezda
Posted by Sigismund on September 4, 2008, at 17:20:44
In reply to Re: Open Mic Night at the RNC, posted by Nadezda on September 4, 2008, at 16:56:16
Are you all talking about Sarah Palin's daughter?
Is *that* what you are talking about?
(I'm bowled over by young love myself.)
BTW, would you like to talk more about what you said elsewhere to the effect that Obama wasn't your cup of tea but that you agreed with his policies?
Politicians here are hard enough to read for me.
Posted by Nadezda on September 4, 2008, at 19:10:03
In reply to Re: Open Mic Night at the RNC » Nadezda, posted by Sigismund on September 4, 2008, at 17:20:44
What I meant was mostly the use of her family, including this supposedly moving saga of her daughter's pregnancy, contrary to all the religious right's pronouncements about other people's families, to act as a character witness for her great belief in "life" and seemingly her profound humanity.
And also to the exploitation of her family to divert attention from her lack of experience, her false statements about her anti-earmarking, pro-bridge to nowhereism, and her authoritarian practices of governing (to the extent that she governed)-- plus her otherwise disturbing and unusual religious commitments and strange affiliations.Nadezda
Posted by Sigismund on September 4, 2008, at 22:42:12
In reply to Re: Open Mic Night at the RNC, posted by Nadezda on September 4, 2008, at 19:10:03
I wasn't so interested in the daughter pregnancy, it being in the nature of things for daughters to fall pregnant.
What I did notice was what Sarah Palin said about her Down syndrome 4 month old kid.
'When we first heard it was kind of confusing. It was very very challenging. [But now] it just feels like he fits perfectly. He is supposed to be here with us. We knew through early testing he would face special challenges, and we feel privileged that God would entrust us with this gift and allow us unspeakable joy as he entered our lives. We have faith that every baby is created for good purpose and has potential to make this world a better place. We are truly blessed.'This wouldn't be said in an election here. The parties do not have a position on abortion. The members of the parties have strong opinions (of course) and are allowed to speak freely in the parliament followed by a conscience vote, thus avoiding a partisan clash.
Posted by Nadezda on September 5, 2008, at 11:43:51
In reply to Re: Open Mic Night at the RNC, posted by Sigismund on September 4, 2008, at 22:42:12
Thing is, she's making that into a campaign issue--
which in code suggests that people who support choice wouldn't keep that child; and that they are therefore baby killers, etc (She also is against the right to choose an abortion in the case of rape or incest)
meanwhile suggesting that because she is morally (and religiously) superior that god will guide her in her work as VP, or P, if something happens to McCain.
I do have thoughts about Obama, though.
Nadezda
Posted by Sigismund on September 5, 2008, at 18:18:02
In reply to Re: Open Mic Night at the RNC » Sigismund, posted by Nadezda on September 5, 2008, at 11:43:51
I think a moose skinning country gal with good values (as your president memorably said about John Howard) gives just the right patina of innocence to divert us from unwelcome feelings of overwhelming guilt.
What are your thoughts about Obama?
And have you ever seen a moose?
Posted by caraher on September 5, 2008, at 21:56:21
In reply to Re: Open Mic Night at the RNC, posted by Sigismund on September 4, 2008, at 22:42:12
"This wouldn't be said in an election here. The parties do not have a position on abortion. The members of the parties have strong opinions (of course) and are allowed to speak freely in the parliament followed by a conscience vote, thus avoiding a partisan clash."
I firmly believe that if only there were an understanding like this in American politics the past 28 years would have played out very differently.
From 1973 to around 1980 there was a huge transformation in American politics during which support for abortion rights became an absolute test for every Democratic candidate, while at the same time religious opposition to abortion became politicized. "Pro-choice" Dems were largely banished from the party, and Republicans donned the "pro-life" mantle. One enormous demographic that emerged was the so-called "Reagan Democrats," many of them blue-collar Catholics told by their church leaders that abortion was the great national sin. I've known far too many conscientious Christians who would never have considered supporting 90% of the elements of the Republican platform who nevertheless feel bound to support the likes of Bush over this single issue.
The fact is, the whole point here is to *have* the partisan clash. It helped create a political coalition in which many members vote for policies manifestly not in their economic best interest in order to have their voice heard on the "culture war" issues.
This is why I don't think there's any real chance abortion will ever be restricted the way it was prior to Roe versus Wade in the US. It's far too valuable politically for the Republicans to keep it as a "wedge" issue. If they were serious about it they would have accomplished a lot more toward banning abortion than simply appointing a couple of sympathetic justices to the Supreme Court and waiting around for someone to retire.
Posted by Nadezda on September 6, 2008, at 11:40:53
In reply to Re: abortion + politics, posted by caraher on September 5, 2008, at 21:56:21
Yes, but Caraher--, they're on the verge of having someone retire, though. Then a host of issues with be up for grabs.
On Obama: I've always felt that he was a rather cool, somewhat ruthless guy with a soft appearance. I'm not sure he's one to feel loyalty or allegiances to anything but his own judgments and beliefs. And while I believe he listens to advisors, I think he surrounds himself with a lot of people who have a certain unconscious sense of difference and superiority to people-- I mean, the charge of elitism is pretty true actually. It's always bothered me a lot-- I prefer more salt of the earth types than those who feel they're a bit too good to stoop to the fray--and who think it's self-evident that they're better.
For example, this "Palin's delivery was good" line, or the constant praise of McCain during the convention. I just think it was unnecessary and seemed phony. Plus to be honest, it wasn't really deserved. To me, it was more a result of the Dems arrogance-- we're so much better that we can afford to acknowledge the strengths of our opponents, and still win. A fine policy in private-- but not at a convention when the outcome is far from decided in your favor. A piquant choice-- but not a practical one. And if you do think there's too much at stake-- maybe not worth indulging in. Also I disliked the choice of venue for the acceptance speech-- much too grand and emperor-like-- detaching raising himself up too far above everyone.
What I've come to respect about him, though, is that he has a commitment to his beliefs--even under pressure== and I think he's actually quite honest. That's a rare thing in politics in the US these days.
I also like his thoughtfulness and slowness to act-- he doesn't get rushed to judgment, or overborne by the emotion of the moment-- but rather waits and lets things settle out. Also a rare trait-- he has a cool head, and his arrogance is a type that may, in fact, be necessary to a good leader. Not the macho, I have to prove myself type, but the "we're better than this" type-- which leads you to take the wiser, more considered path, to keep your own counsel, and not to be flustered easily by seemingly rushing events. Events rush much less than we imagine, actually. It's hard to know this, though, in the moment. I think he does.
I'm worried that he may not push back enough, and that he may be too worried about his self-respect to do what it takes.
What do you make of him, from your part of the world?
Nadezda
Posted by Sigismund on September 6, 2008, at 20:44:14
In reply to Re: abortion + politics--Sigismund, posted by Nadezda on September 6, 2008, at 11:40:53
I wondered if Obama would be able to break a cycle of US politics in a way that Hillary Clinton would not. She would be demonised and make a good hate object, for reasons beyond me at the moment. After the sorts of dreadful politics (swift boats, the bloke who lost his legs in Vietnam who was called a coward etc etc) that have been around, someone who tries to raise the bar is welcome. Rudd did this to good effect before the last election.
Obama was unknown here until a few years ago. I am impressed that he can take time to reflect.
>his arrogance is a type that may, in fact, be necessary to a good leader. Not the macho, I have to prove myself type, but the "we're better than this" type-- which leads you to take the wiser, more considered path, to keep your own counsel, and not to be flustered easily by seemingly rushing events.
Here's hoping. I do think we should be better than this.
And leaders who are gamblers are a worry. People say McCain is a gambler, I dunno at all.
Posted by Sigismund on September 9, 2008, at 2:24:36
In reply to politics, posted by Sigismund on September 6, 2008, at 20:44:14
Should Obama lose we might derive consolation from the fact that he represents Wilsonian utopian (?) interventionist (?) thinking just as much as McCain.
Or, we might derive consolation from the fact that we are beyond hope as a species.
Is there anybody out there?
Posted by caraher on September 9, 2008, at 11:15:26
In reply to desultry consolations, posted by Sigismund on September 9, 2008, at 2:24:36
> Should Obama lose we might derive consolation from the fact that he represents Wilsonian utopian (?) interventionist (?) thinking just as much as McCain.
>
> Or, we might derive consolation from the fact that we are beyond hope as a species.
>
> Is there anybody out there?It might mean we can stop dreaming that America is any kind of democracy and get on with the business of figuring out how best to adapt to a world where it's an obvious sham.
(Seriously... I am in rural Indiana, a state that last voted for a Democrat when I was in diapers, and there's no visible McCain support. Yet I'm supposed to believe that McCain leads in nationwide polling? The stage is being set for yet another implausible election result...)
Posted by Dinah on September 9, 2008, at 13:29:22
In reply to Re: Open Mic Night at the RNC » caraher, posted by Sigismund on September 4, 2008, at 4:16:16
What's wrong with that?
I assure you that people of Louisiana were saying a fair number of prayers themselves. And don't at all mind our president and other Americans adding their voices.
We also are sending up a few prayers of thanksgiving that unseasonably dry air significantly weakened Gustav before landfall.
There are a large number of religious people here in Louisiana. Catholic down along the coast, Protestant in Northern Louisiana. I assure you that the vast majority of us did not take any offense at having prayers said for our safety..
Nor did the government stand idly by and merely pray for us. The evacuation was a model of interagency cooperation and efficiency. It was so breathtaking it brought tears to my eyes, and admiration for the ever competent Governor Jindal swelled my heart. Federal, state, and local officials worked together to get resources where they needed to be.
The return to our homes might still need some tweaking, but our federal government, state governments, and local governments are to be greatly commended.
Posted by fayeroe on September 9, 2008, at 15:30:56
In reply to Re: desultry consolations, posted by caraher on September 9, 2008, at 11:15:26
> > Should Obama lose we might derive consolation from the fact that he represents Wilsonian utopian (?) interventionist (?) thinking just as much as McCain.
> >
> > Or, we might derive consolation from the fact that we are beyond hope as a species.
> >
> > Is there anybody out there?
>
> It might mean we can stop dreaming that America is any kind of democracy and get on with the business of figuring out how best to adapt to a world where it's an obvious sham.
>
> (Seriously... I am in rural Indiana, a state that last voted for a Democrat when I was in diapers, and there's no visible McCain support. Yet I'm supposed to believe that McCain leads in nationwide polling? The stage is being set for yet another implausible election result...)I'll move to Mexico. Learn Spanish from someone in my classes and fend for myself down south.
>
Posted by Sigismund on September 10, 2008, at 3:16:44
In reply to Re: desultry consolations, posted by fayeroe on September 9, 2008, at 15:30:56
Look who's here!
Estoy deprimido.
I'm sure I spelled 'desultry' wrongly.
(Big mistake!)Have you ever felt like you would have to make a choice (like buying which variety of baked beans) and end up being carted off by the authorities?
I'd like to believe the anglosphere is driving me nuts but I suspect it's not true.
Posted by fayeroe on September 11, 2008, at 12:32:19
In reply to Re: desultry consolations » fayeroe, posted by Sigismund on September 10, 2008, at 3:16:44
> Look who's here!
>
> Estoy deprimido.
>
> I'm sure I spelled 'desultry' wrongly.
> (Big mistake!)watch yourself!
>
> Have you ever felt like you would have to make a choice (like buying which variety of baked beans) and end up being carted off by the authorities?we are coming to that. i shudder everytime i get to the end of the green bean section and prepare to turn the corner to the jalepeno bin. i just know that it will be the day that i will be collared. :-)
how are you? i miss being here but my computer is still on the fritz and until i work for about two weeks (starting the 17th), i'll still have to come to library. i want to stomp my modem. yessir, you heard me! stomp it~maybe i'll run over it with my truck.
xoxo pat
>
> I'd like to believe the anglosphere is driving me nuts but I suspect it's not true.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 14, 2008, at 16:39:02
In reply to Re: abortion + politics--Sigismund, posted by Nadezda on September 6, 2008, at 11:40:53
> her lack of experience, her false statements about her anti-earmarking, pro-bridge to nowhereism, and her authoritarian practices of governing (to the extent that she governed)
> he surrounds himself with a lot of people who have a certain unconscious sense of difference and superiority to people-- I mean, the charge of elitism is pretty true actually.
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others (such as supporters of Palin and Obama).
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself are/is in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 14, 2008, at 16:39:08
In reply to Re: desultry consolations, posted by caraher on September 9, 2008, at 11:15:26
> It might mean we can stop dreaming that America is any kind of democracy ... it's an obvious sham.
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others (such as Americans).
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself are/is in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Nadezda on September 15, 2008, at 17:36:34
In reply to Re: please be sensitive » Nadezda, posted by Dr. Bob on September 14, 2008, at 16:39:02
I'm sorry if I hurt anyone who's supporting Palin or Obama..
Nadezda
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Politics | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.