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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on August 10, 2008, at 22:44:13
In reply to Any thoughts about the Open Ceremony of the Oly, posted by Lemonaide on August 8, 2008, at 23:14:43
I am still quite mad the rest of the world allowed the Games to take place in a quasi-communist-neo-fascist China. It's a major slap in the face to Human Rights. I sit with Amnesty International on this one. I am boycotting everything...watching, buying, reading....everything.
In disgust,
Jay
Posted by Sigismund on August 10, 2008, at 22:44:13
In reply to Re: Any thoughts about the Open Ceremony of the Oly » Lemonaide, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on August 9, 2008, at 23:46:09
Let's talk politics!!
I'm kinda with the Chinese on this one, but only because I remember what China was like in 1966.
So I think there has been steady improvement.
Well, there would want to have been.
In 1966 China was one of the scariest places on the planet.Is that an argument?
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on August 10, 2008, at 22:44:14
In reply to Re: Any thoughts about the Open Ceremony of the Oly » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by Sigismund on August 10, 2008, at 1:57:25
No, I don't want to get into an argument Sig :-)
It's just, there was supposedly a deal about more open human rights if they got the games, and China agreed at the time. Then, as time went by, they balked. You know, they just demolished thousands of homes, without the residents consent, to make room for the Olympic grounds? Yesterday, after that stabbing of that American, the Chinese pretty much denied it even happened! Then a group of foreigners protested in Tiananmen Square, and the where ordered to leave the country. Journalists have been complaining of being followed by Chinese secret police everywhere they go.
Believe me, I am one of the most progressive, call me 'liberal', persons when it comes to peace and making good with other countries. I am not saying we should be on the offense to China, but out of all the countries in the world, they need to be sanctioned somehow to bring their Human Rights quality way, way up in standard. We don't hand them the "keys to the kingdom..", nor should we have given them the Olympics without major conditions. IMHO....:)
Jay
Posted by Sigismund on August 11, 2008, at 15:06:21
In reply to Re: Any thoughts about the Open Ceremony of the Oly » Sigismund, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on August 10, 2008, at 22:44:14
I expressed myself badly Jay.
I meant 'Is what I wrote a valid argument?', because I am conflicted.If one meaning of the opening ceremony (which I couldn't be bothered watching, but will now comment on) is a message from the Chinese saying 'Don't f*ck with us', then I have some sympathy. And if I was Chinese I would NOT be prepared to listen to lectures from the west about human rights. I would think (if I was Chinese) 'When it suited you lot you took over most of the world and enslaved it and called it religion.' (colonialism) Then you fought about dividing up the world, and called it a fight for freedom (WWI, WWII), as a result of which one of your less successful ideas(Marxism-Leninism) came here. Your war on drugs defines you lot. On a pretext you sack the winter palace (I think it was called) and start the opium wars. Everywhere you go, you leaver a trail of narcotics, the problems resulting from which are paid for, not by you, but by other countries. You are in no position to lecture us about *anything*.'
Having said that, I agree with you.
So as you can see, I am conflicted.
Posted by Sigismund on August 11, 2008, at 15:21:47
In reply to Re: Any thoughts about the Open Ceremony of the Oly » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by Sigismund on August 11, 2008, at 15:06:21
Kevin Rudd acually handles them well.
He shows respect in the right places in ways that are important to them.
But at times he speaks to them about human rights. Partly because he speaks Mandarin, partly because he knows something of their intellectual history, they are prepared to listen. He did this to some young people at a top Chinese university. They didn't like it; they didn't agree; but they felt they had been treated with respect and were prepared to listen.
A people's sense of their own dignity is enormously important. When this is called prestige, it is a reason to fight wars. For the last many hundreds of years, the powers have all been European powers, of one sort or another(USA). You would be aware of the casual contempt that the Chinese were held in for the last century. I imagine they were very aware of it, and felt it themselves, and that this is the way they will overcome it.
It's not the part of China I like, certainly. Taoism, Buddhism and Traditional Chinese Medicine for me.
Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 18:35:58
In reply to Re: Any thoughts about the Open Ceremony of the Oly » Sigismund, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on August 10, 2008, at 22:44:14
I'm not quite sure what boycotting would accomplish, in this situation. China has long been an insular country, if I understand correctly. Isolating them wouldn't be extreme punishment.
I always figure that to some extent, you have to know who you're with to know what will best work. Gandhi's nonviolent protests worked with the British because of the British self concept. It didn't work so well in Tiananmen Square. Trade embargoes worked in South Africa, because the finances of the country depended on outside trade and because the people in charge, the people who had to have a change of heart, were very invested in the financial wellbeing of, well, themselves.
Surely, history has shown that informed prosperous citizens are most likely to institute political reforms themselves? Prosperity to China will bring increased access to international news sources, and prosperity brings its own sets of demands.
I don't think we have enough clout, with all the world combined, to force China's leadership to change their position. And if I were them, outside attempts to force me into something would just harden my heart and think insularity wasn't such a bad thing. I think in the end you have to trust the people of China. An awful lot of people. Good people. Empower the people with information and prosperity, and they will have the tools to make their own decisions.
Believe it or not, I'm not an optimist... Or at least that's not my self concept at all.
Posted by Sigismund on August 11, 2008, at 19:29:19
In reply to Re: Any thoughts about the Open Ceremony of the Ol, posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 18:35:58
>Surely, history has shown that informed prosperous citizens are most likely to institute political reforms themselves?
That's the question. I hope so, though I wonder.
Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 19:38:36
In reply to Re: Any thoughts about the Open Ceremony of the Ol » Dinah, posted by Sigismund on August 11, 2008, at 19:29:19
At the very least, for themselves?
Posted by Sigismund on August 11, 2008, at 20:02:21
In reply to Re: Any thoughts about the Open Ceremony of the Ol » Sigismund, posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 19:38:36
How many people moved away from the Yangstee Valley for the Three Gorges Dam?
Millions for sure. Not compensated too well, I wouldn't imagine; maybe not at all.
They (some of them) dug up the bones of their ancestors to take with them, away from where they had lived for generations, and said it was for the good of the country.
That kind of relationship with the state is foreign to us.
Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 20:17:34
In reply to Re: Any thoughts about the Open Ceremony of the Ol » Dinah, posted by Sigismund on August 11, 2008, at 20:02:21
Maybe it's foreign to us because we have the luxury of having it be foreign to us. Self sacrifice is something we're capable of. But few people will choose it if other alternatives are available.
Yet I will grant you that we tend to think more in terms of individual rights and freedoms and less in terms of communal wellbeing. Which is neither right nor wrong in itself, and we should respect other peoples' different choices.
But again, that's the point, right?
Posted by Sigismund on August 11, 2008, at 20:23:26
In reply to Re: Any thoughts about the Open Ceremony of the Ol » Sigismund, posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 20:17:34
There is some city that has to be close enough to the dam because it uses the power from it.
I had never heard of it, but it has 32,000,000 people in it, almost half as many again as Australia.
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on August 13, 2008, at 16:53:56
In reply to Re: Any thoughts about the Open Ceremony of the Ol, posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 18:35:58
(I am not making fun of you guys, I just thought that was a perfect subject line...as we will see..:)
I certainly don't think boycotting anything from China will make much of a difference either. Now, if we really want to get to the nitty-gritty of foreign policy, IMHO, the West loves China because the corrupt Chinese government allows their people to be used, exploited, etc...by Western corporations and industry. Hence, the Chinese government gets all the paybacks from Western industry, and China is now the biggest sweatshop in the world!
Now, let's do a little comparative policy here. Look at the West's attitude towards Cuba. I know, Cuba is not any leader in human rights, but they have one of the highest literacy rates in the world, and even if their healthcare is ancient (thanks in part to those lovely blockades and such) at least all of their people get treated. But, yes, Cuba still has it's own dark side, and here is the latest on Human Rights in Cuba, as reported by Amnesty International on their website at www.amnesty.org
Cuba-----"At least 69 prisoners of conscience remained imprisoned for their political opinions. Political dissidents, independent journalists and human rights activists continued to be harassed, intimidated and detained, some without charge or trial. Cubans continued to feel the negative impact of the US embargo."
No, that is not freedom or democracy. But, let's go back to our comparative analysis and check-up on some other countries. Like, China for example....
China------"Thousands of people who pursued their faith outside officially sanctioned churches were subjected to harassment and many to detention and imprisonment. Thousands of people were sentenced to death or executed. Migrants from rural areas were deprived of basic rights. Severe repression of Uighurs in the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region continued, and freedom of expression and religion continued to be severely restricted in Tibet and among Tibetans elsewhere."
Ummm..I see a little bit of a difference between the two countries. Like, 69 imprisoned in Cuba, and 1000's sentenced to death or executed in China. Whooaa. Do you think maybe some of these Western leaders need a little human-geography, or political science lesson? How about Math?
So, China now has plenty of Pepsi and IPod's. Regardless, millions of Chinese live in poverty and child labour exploitation is a 'career prospect' for every newborn. There are some 'haves', and a LOT of 'have nots'. And there is no way the 'haves' are *ever* going to want to share their loot. This is a result of decades of Western policy of 'looking the other way' while corporations did their dirty business in China, and the result ended up in a Wal-Mart. Hand-made by an 8 year old little girl. But, hey, they got Pepsi!
Jay
Posted by Dinah on August 13, 2008, at 17:46:32
In reply to 'Lucy....'splain dis one.'...Sig..Dinah, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on August 13, 2008, at 16:53:56
I was not aware that Cuba had asked to open a relationship with the United States? I can't imagine we wouldn't like a cordial relationship with them, were they to also wish one. I would gladly argue for the same things for Cuba that I'd like for China. Empowerment of the people.
I don't know about Canadian history, but there was a time when children were forced labor in the factories of the U.S. and Great Britain. It didn't last forever. At least some of my ancestors were coal miners. Kids were used often in the mines and people were debilitated at what we would consider the prime of life. I do not in any way condone it. But again, it ended when our own people had the luxury of saying enough. We won't stand for this anymore. I don't imagine pressure from Britain or France to end it would have had the same effect.
I'm no more in favor of human rights violations than anyone. But I do believe that change has to come from inside, and is better brought about by anything that empowers the people of a country.
Now, if you were to explain to me how a boycott would work, how it would lead to change, how it would empower the people of China, then I would certainly be open to changing my mind.
Mind you, I do see how athletes boycotting the Olympics has brought to public attention certain involvement of the Chinese government in the Sudan, if I'm remembering correctly? That is certainly a worthwhile goal. I'd never heard of the matter before, so hats off to those self sacrificing Olympians.
In a related note, I don't think Olympics should ever be boycotted entirely. To heck with the national governments. It's about the people. Knowledge is the road to peace. Athletes getting to know one another, people from various countries meeting, it's a wonderful idea. It's always easier to have an enemy you don't know than an enemy you do know. Depersonalize the "other" and you have the seeds of something nasty. Give the other a name and a face and a life history, and it's not so easy to make them into "an enemy".
Good Gad, maybe I'm becoming an optimist after all. The St Andrews Agreement may have softened my heart. May God bless them one and all, who were part of ending the conflict in Ireland.
Posted by Sigismund on August 13, 2008, at 18:02:16
In reply to 'Lucy....'splain dis one.'...Sig..Dinah, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on August 13, 2008, at 16:53:56
Hi Jay
Here's my bit.
The Chinese looked at how Gorbachev and Yeltsin did it to Russia and decided to do the economic reforms first.
It wasn't an easy task, never having been done before.
The Russian transition from communism has been described as 'the greatest larceny in world history', so I'm looking at it from that perspective and with very low expectations.
(30M starved in man made famines, that sort of thing.)I don't think the west loves China, and I don't think the Chinese are fooled that they do.
I suspect the Chinese take the long view of everything, though this is speculation, based as much as anything on Choe En Lai's famous response to the question
'Was the French Revolution a good thing?'
that it was too soon to tell.(I might add that Newspoll here came up with a result some years back that the Australian people thought China more of a force for world peace than the US .
Anyone familiar with Australia knows that this is an extraordinary result.)I agree entirely about Cuba, Jay. I just want to visit there before they get the free market and lose their architecture, not to speak of their charm.
These bien-pensant leftist tourists, but we have to have our holidays, no?
Still, I was lucky to go to Vietnam more than a decade ago.
The people of Hanoi have class, and architecture.
Still, 'sweatshop of the world'?
Absolutely.
Making all this crap?
Only too true.
For the Chinese it may seem preferrable to work in a sweatshop than be a peasant and work like a slave.The modern world sucks, of course.
Posted by Sigismund on August 13, 2008, at 18:04:46
In reply to Re: 'Lucy....'splain dis one.'...Sig..Dinah » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by Dinah on August 13, 2008, at 17:46:32
At uni I read "The Road to Wigan Pier" by Orwell, about the mining industry of the 30s, I think.
It was devastating.
Posted by Dinah on August 13, 2008, at 18:06:10
In reply to Re: 'Lucy....'splain dis one.'...Sig..Dinah » Dinah, posted by Sigismund on August 13, 2008, at 18:04:46
Yes, it was. :(
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on August 14, 2008, at 19:26:56
In reply to Re: 'Lucy....'splain dis one.'...Sig..Dinah » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by Dinah on August 13, 2008, at 17:46:32
Dinah, I really pretty much agree with everything you have said. But I haven't seen any olive branches extended to Cuba, as the old regime I think would eventually be open to dialog. Instead, they get Helms-Burton. Cubans are going to eventually demand and get full democracy, but the dissenting opinions have not been very loud because, well, Cuba does a not-to-bad job of looking after ALL of their people. Imagine, in such an 'evil' country, they have one of the highest literacy rates in the world. Even though their healthcare system is a bit old and such, much thanks to Western intrusion, every single person in Cuba has free healthcare and free medicine. Even Canada doesn't have the medicine part.
So I sound like I am defending Fidel and Raul. No, not exactly, but Fidel was not all the evil he is/was portrayed to be.
Jay
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2008, at 19:44:46
In reply to Re: 'Lucy....'splain dis one.'... » Dinah, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on August 14, 2008, at 19:26:56
I'm always in favor of having cordial, or at least civil, relationships with our neighbors.
This is the end of the thread.
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