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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on September 8, 2007, at 3:20:35
Bin Laden tells the American people that they have failed to persuade the Bush administration to stop the war in Iraq.
"You permitted Bush to complete his first term, and stranger still, chose him for a second term, which gave him a clear mandate from you... to continue to murder our people in Iraq and Afghanistan".
"It has now become clear to you and the entire world the impotence of the democratic system and how it plays with the interest of the peoples and their blood by sacrificing soldiers and populations to achieve the interests of the major corporations".
I think the corporations bit.
Posted by Sigismund on September 8, 2007, at 14:44:24
In reply to Bin Laden speaks some truth....., posted by Meri-Tuuli on September 8, 2007, at 3:20:35
Bush responded to this by saying something like 'It shows what a dangerous world we are living in.'
I wasn't sure how to take that, which is a sign of the rhetorical defeat.
By comparison, the engagement with communism was deep, long and untinged by guilt.
Not all the engagement of the west with Islam is on the level of Norma Khouri's "Forbidden Love", but that book revealed a vein of wilfull ignorance.....our politicians do not have to try very hard.
Posted by caraher on September 8, 2007, at 16:41:23
In reply to Re: Bin Laden speaks some truth..... » Meri-Tuuli, posted by Sigismund on September 8, 2007, at 14:44:24
I've heard there are some questions about the authenticity of this latest bin Laden video. At least the Al Jazeera web story in English saw fit to call it a "purported" bin Laden video and added this quote:
"Adel Darwish, political editor of Middle East magazine, told Al Jazeera that he had "doubts" about the authenticity of the tape.
"Any kid these days with an electronic kit can alter images and edit the way that he or she likes," he said on Friday.
"There is no close-up of bin Laden, the beard is thick and black and then there are large segments where the image is a still.""The text is a bit odd in that its audience seems to be Americans. Some speculate that an American associate of bin Laden wrote it. Some left-leaning conspiracy-minded folks I know of think it's a fake produced for domestic US political purposes (basically, to hammer relatively liberal politicians by saying "That's what bin Laden says.")
Posted by seldomseen on September 8, 2007, at 21:32:00
In reply to Bin Laden speaks some truth....., posted by Meri-Tuuli on September 8, 2007, at 3:20:35
when I want a lecture on morality, democracy etc... osama bin laden would be the LAST person on the PLANET that I would listen to.
Posted by caraher on September 9, 2007, at 1:11:47
In reply to Re: Bin Laden speaks some truth..... » Meri-Tuuli, posted by seldomseen on September 8, 2007, at 21:32:00
> when I want a lecture on morality, democracy etc... osama bin laden would be the LAST person on the PLANET that I would listen to.
This reaction is exactly why the conspiracy theorists I alluded to worried about. Place an argument in the mouth of bin Laden and many will view it as discredited for that reason alone, without engaging the ideas directly.
If bin Laden says 2+2=4, I'm not going to change my beliefs. If he says Reagan was a great president, that won't sway me either.
I think Meri-Tuuli's original post title was intended to underscore what an unlikely source for the view expressed bin Laden is. He's obviously no friend of democratic forms of government, but that in now way invalidates, by itself, observations regarding hypocrisies and failures of various governments. This will inevitably be fodder for the ridiculous claims of unscrupulous pundits that some politicians are in league with Al Qaeda.
Posted by seldomseen on September 9, 2007, at 10:30:45
In reply to Re: Bin Laden speaks some truth....., posted by caraher on September 9, 2007, at 1:11:47
"Place an argument in the mouth of bin Laden and many will view it as discredited for that reason alone, without engaging the ideas directly...
...This will inevitably be fodder for the ridiculous claims of unscrupulous pundits that some politicians are in league with Al Qaeda. "
Your latter statement is the reason that I think arguments presented by bin Laden SHOULD be discredited. In my opinion, they are designed to only foster discord and division - not the debate that is essential to the democratic process.
Posted by Sigismund on September 9, 2007, at 14:50:01
In reply to Re: Bin Laden speaks some truth....., posted by seldomseen on September 9, 2007, at 10:30:45
I think it's critical that bin Laden's arguments be discredited.
I think it is serious when he starts sounding more reasonable than the President.
Is this where government by soundbite has got us?
I wonder how this looks from say Pakistan or Egypt?
Posted by Sigismund on September 22, 2007, at 15:06:51
In reply to Re: Bin Laden speaks some truth....., posted by Sigismund on September 9, 2007, at 14:50:01
"If there's any comparison between the compassion and decency of the American people and the terrorist tactics of extremists, it's flawed logic,” Bush said. “It's just -- I simply can't accept that. It's unacceptable to think that there's any kind of comparison between the behavior of the United States of America and the action of Islamic extremists who kill innocent women and children to achieve an objective."
Now how would this sound if you lived in Egypt, or Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan? It's complicated. The compassion and decency of the American people wouldn't cut a lot of ice in Baghdad, but they have seen Islamic extremism up close too.
Posted by caraher on September 23, 2007, at 8:47:55
In reply to The Leader of the Free World, posted by Sigismund on September 22, 2007, at 15:06:51
> "If there's any comparison between the compassion and decency of the American people and the terrorist tactics of extremists, it's flawed logic,” Bush said. “It's just -- I simply can't accept that. It's unacceptable to think that there's any kind of comparison between the behavior of the United States of America and the action of Islamic extremists who kill innocent women and children to achieve an objective."
Every word is crafted for domestic consumption.
For many, it's axiomatic that whatever is done by the US or in the name of the US is good, right, just and moral. When "we" kill innocent women and children to achieve an objective we carefully refuse to track how often it happens (and view with righteous indignation the efforts to make estimates, since it's surely impossible that as many as a million Iraqi civilians have died in the process of being liberated from the "Butcher of Baghdad"). And we do it using legitimate means, such as helicopters, remote-control drones and artillery, not IEDs and car bombs. See, it's just collateral damage - it's not our fault if it turned out to be a wedding party! Our hearts were in the right place, if not our bombs and bullets...
Posted by Sigismund on September 23, 2007, at 15:38:09
In reply to Re: The Leader of the Free World, posted by caraher on September 23, 2007, at 8:47:55
Where will the war on terror be won?
That's the wrong question for which there is no answer.
The war on terror will be lost (unless it's forgotten first, like the war on poverty?), and perhaps is designed to be lost, like the wars on drugs, cancer, and the others I can't remember. The main thing is to appeal to the martial valour of the people.
(Can this be right? The Fox News mindset? Does *it* have martial valour?)
No, clearly, the main thing is the contracts and the cash.So anyway, let's rephrase.
The constituency most likely to be receptive to Al Quaeda ideas...where do they live? In Birmingham, or Saudi Arabia or Indonesia?If this is a war of ideas, we seem to be doing our best to lose it as quickly as possible.
People say this is not like Vietnam, but one similarity is the repeated contradiction of the Administration's assertions by reality.
Posted by Sigismund on September 23, 2007, at 15:43:23
In reply to Re: The Leader of the Free World, posted by caraher on September 23, 2007, at 8:47:55
>it's surely impossible that as many as a million Iraqi civilians have died in the process of being liberated from the "Butcher of Baghdad"
The figure of 600,000 seems to be gaining traction in non-government circles.
And 2,000,000 displaced outside the country.One down, two to go.
Hopefully something will be learned from this.
This is the end of the thread.
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