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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ClearSkies on November 8, 2006, at 13:08:18
Posted by Declan on November 8, 2006, at 14:18:43
In reply to Rumsfeld resigns (nm), posted by ClearSkies on November 8, 2006, at 13:08:18
That was quick and expected.
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 14:47:27
In reply to Re: Rumsfeld resigns » ClearSkies, posted by Declan on November 8, 2006, at 14:18:43
I am having difficulty grasping the logic behind the timing.
Last night was hardly unforseen. An "I'm listening" a few months ago would strike me as the logical choice.
Does it have something to do with pressure from the new congressional leadership? That doesn't really fit with my understanding of the President's character.
Posted by Declan on November 8, 2006, at 15:50:54
In reply to Re: Rumsfeld resigns, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 14:47:27
When the House Committees start looking into everything it will be better not to have Rumsfeld there. And maybe they really expected to win?
Posted by ClearSkies on November 8, 2006, at 17:04:54
In reply to Re: Rumsfeld resigns, posted by Declan on November 8, 2006, at 15:50:54
> When the House Committees start looking into everything it will be better not to have Rumsfeld there. And maybe they really expected to win?
That's what I understand to be behind the resignation. With a newly Democrat Congress there will probably be task forces, inquiries, or whatever they are called, about Iraq and the former Secretary of Defense.
ClearSkies
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 18:13:22
In reply to Re: Rumsfeld resigns, posted by Declan on November 8, 2006, at 15:50:54
I can't imagine that they thought they'd win the House. The Senate, probably, but not the House. The writing was on the wall for a good long time, and I'm not paid megabucks to analyze this stuff.
I was kind of hoping the Republicans would keep the Senate. I have a general liking for a divided Congress, no matter who holds what. It keeps them humble.
However, a good absorbing investigation might well serve the same purpose as gridlock for me.
Posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 18:26:02
In reply to Re: Rumsfeld resigns » Declan, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 18:13:22
Rumsfeld resigns, but Bush nominates Robert Gates
Klonopin,klonopin
-z
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 18:30:21
In reply to time for extra Klonopin, posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 18:26:02
I don't know that much about him. But the news coverage I saw seemed to indicate that it was a move away from ardent pro-involvement?
Hmmm... ABC news, I guess?
Posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 18:36:29
In reply to Re: time for extra Klonopin » zeugma, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 18:30:21
investigate his history with the CIA.
-z
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 18:53:43
In reply to Re: time for extra Klonopin » Dinah, posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 18:36:29
A quick glance shows nothing to distress and much to reassure - me, at least.
He *appears* to be a man who would bring moderation to the position. And a subtler style.
Are you talking about Iran-Contra?
Posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 19:03:09
In reply to Re: time for extra Klonopin » Dinah, posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 18:36:29
i am no longer apoplectic.
sorry to be so uninformative.
But Dinah, you did not misread the president's character.
If anything, it is an escalation of the controversies swirling around the Secretary of Defense, use of prewar intelligence,politicization of the CIA (as if most of them weren't Republicans already), and so on.
I am aghast.
But then, the President's views are noted for consistency, so I shouldn't be.
I hope my votes yesterday weren't wasted.
We're in for an interesting two years.-z
Posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 19:04:48
In reply to Re: time for extra Klonopin » zeugma, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 18:53:43
>
>
> Are you talking about Iran-Contra?>>yes.
-z
>
>
Posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 19:09:48
In reply to Re: time for extra Klonopin » Dinah, posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 19:04:48
i admire your dispassion.
-z
Posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 19:33:15
In reply to and just to add, apoliticallyDinah, posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 19:09:48
Robert Gates, Bush's nominee to replace Secretary Rumsfeld, presumably- retiring- because of Iraqi IED prevalence, was rejected as head of the CIA in 1989 for allegedly passing intelligence to Iraq.
Iraq headed by the death-bound dictator, of course.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/congress/1991_cr/s911107-gates.htm
I hope the Congressional committees who will vote to approve/disapprove Mr. Gates have a similar taste for irony to mine.
-z
Posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 19:37:39
In reply to for those who appreciate irony, posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 19:33:15
Posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 19:57:59
In reply to oops, 1991 (nm), posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 19:37:39
posting this must make me as bleary as the eyes of those who read this- apoplexy is a poor state in which to conduct fact-checking- and when I praised Dinah for dispassion, part of that- only part- is that details would have been gotten right.
Gates was approved despite doubts from the agency he headed, but never signed on permanently. He was head of the CIA during Gulf War I.The Kurds may bear some bitterness to him. As might some Shiites.
Perhaps, instead of striking back at exuberant Democrats flushed with electoral victory, this is a move to keep al-Maliki in line?
-z
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 20:14:54
In reply to and just to add, apoliticallyDinah, posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 19:09:48
I was quite young when stagflation, interest rates in the high teens, a marginal tax rate of ninety percent, tensions between east and west, nuclear proliferation, and lingering aftereffects of an unpopular war had the country (and a young and inexperienced me) in despair. I gained a certain faith in the resiliency of the country and the people. My mother might fear that the election of this or that president will mean that the country is doomed, but I retain faith in checks and balances and the pull of the middle - or what is considered middle in the US anyway.
And added to that totally uncharacteristic optimism and faith is my totally characteristic cynicism. I find it relatively easy to be dispassionate about things that I have no real ability to change.
Iran-Contra... I'm not saying that there are no repercussions today from what happened then. But that was twenty years ago in another lifetime as far as world politics is concerned. The world was truly a different place then. It would be a sad world if there was no room for growth and learning from mistakes in the long space of twenty years. I'd be more interested in his contributions to the Iraq Study Group.
Bush the Elder put quite a deal of faith in him, didn't he? And he was certainly a man of caution and very impressed with the importance of consensus in foreign policy. I guess that came from his years in government service.
While I can't quite see Bush the Younger adopting his father's style, perhaps this might be a pull to the middle? Or at least a slight tug.
(I must say that I was quite entertained when I ran across the Kissinger quote on Rumsfeld.)
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 20:25:02
In reply to apologize for errors of fact, posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 19:57:59
I would have immense sympathy towards anything the Kurds and Shiites felt during that war. They paid the heaviest of prices for raised and dashed hopes.
Posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 20:45:49
In reply to Re: and just to add, apoliticallyDinah » zeugma, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 20:14:54
Dinah, your writing is such a consolation to me.
Yes, Bush the Elder put a lot of faith in him. And I am unsure- unsure- of where to place Bush the Elder (in my own mind of course, which is of interest mainly to me).
Because Gulf War I, I opposed it, and in liberal NYC, with the 'bo blood for oil' slogans in the subways (or whatever the slogans were-)- I was not opposed without qualification, by which I mean, I can hardly approve the invasion of another country (Kuwait). I felt, as you probably gathered from my rather emotional posts about Gates, that it woiuld have been wiser- fairer to the Kurds and Shiites- if we had taken Baghdad.
Powell and Bush I made a different choice, one I did not like but which was made nonetheless, Saddam commited crimes for which he is now sentences to hang- of course, he was hardly spotless before the suppressions of the revolts that followed Gulf War I- but once it had been made, for better or worse, I feel that it should have been adhered to, after all the mass killings in Kurd villages had stopped and though Saddam's actions in the last decade hardly redeemed him, the geopolitical reasons for which Powell and Bush I made their decision not to topple Saddam were still basically valid- valid as realpolitik, ugly, but valid (in a realpolitik sense).
oh well, it's been a long day. I appreciate your level tones, Dinah.
-z
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 21:06:16
In reply to Re: and just to add, apoliticallyDinah » Dinah, posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 20:45:49
I'm glad if I and the klonopin were able to help.
FWIW, I too wish that a different choice had been made back then.
But I'm not sure the end would have been any different. There still would have been massive resentment of any interference on our part, and there still would have been an outbreak of repressed ethnic hostilities. Or at least that's my theory.
I sometimes despair of there ever being a right answer in some situations, only different ways to be wrong.
Posted by Declan on November 9, 2006, at 1:37:51
In reply to apologize for errors of fact, posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 19:57:59
He should have to wear it. Still, it's expected.
Posted by Declan on November 9, 2006, at 1:39:30
In reply to the Klonopin is working, posted by zeugma on November 8, 2006, at 19:03:09
This is the first good political news for 10 years.
I need something to settle me down too.
This is the end of the thread.
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