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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by finelinebob on September 7, 2006, at 21:50:01
http://www.icasualties.org/oif/
as of 6 Sept 2006:
US war dead: 2664
US war wounded: 19,688That doesn't include Coalition forces, Iraqi Defense Forces, or Iraqi civilians.
Final death toll for the World Trade Center attack: 2752. But the total varies from source to source.
Can't find the source, but I recall reading recently of around 6,500 people being treated in area hospitals that recovered. But now we have many, many first-responders and rescue workers reporting various respiratory diseases. So who knows what the true "wounded" number is?Even some of the rescue dogs have died prematurely.
Overall, there were 2996 deaths (homocide bombers not included) from the 9/11 attacks. When the US death toll in Iraq hits 2996, do you think Bush will decide that THAT is the point at which this war has been too costly?
Posted by Declan on September 8, 2006, at 15:31:27
In reply to The Body Count...., posted by finelinebob on September 7, 2006, at 21:50:01
It would be reasurring to be a marxist and to know that motivations at least made sense; that it really was about money and markets and oil.
What normally happens around now is that cause and effect are inverted and argued about for another couple of thousand deaths.
Posted by Declan on September 8, 2006, at 18:32:57
In reply to Re: The Body Count.... » finelinebob, posted by Declan on September 8, 2006, at 15:31:27
We must never admit our mistakes or learn from them.
This seems to be the rule.
Posted by Declan on September 8, 2006, at 19:22:37
In reply to The Body Count...., posted by finelinebob on September 7, 2006, at 21:50:01
In today's paper it was put at 2,974 (military deaths in the war on terrorism), so that's Afghanistan as well.
Posted by Jost on September 8, 2006, at 19:57:42
In reply to Re: The Body Count...., posted by Declan on September 8, 2006, at 19:22:37
Unfortunately, things are much worse, in terms of how soldiers who served in Afghanistan and Iraq have fared.
This is an excerpt is from an August 21, 2006 Atlanta Constitution:
"According to Bob Bazell of NBC News: "Brain injuries — thousands of them — could be the legacy of this war just as much as post-traumatic stress and problems from exposure to Agent Orange persisted among many of the troops who served in Vietnam."
At least 18,000 troops have been wounded in Iraq or Afghanistan to date. Some reports suggest that up to 60 percent of those casualties (as many as 10,000) involve some degree of brain injury. These figures do not include civilian contractors or members of the news media who have suffered brain injuries."
I've heard other comments that support this figure of approximately 10,000 very grave injuries in the Iraq War, cited recently by several retired generals (on both sides of the political spectrum) in discussions on tv news.
Jost
Posted by finelinebob on September 9, 2006, at 3:08:11
In reply to Re: The Body Count...., posted by Declan on September 8, 2006, at 19:22:37
> In today's paper it was put at 2,974 (military deaths in the war on terrorism), so that's Afghanistan as well.
True enough. I had not included stats from Afganistan ... so here we are approaching the 5th anniversary of 9/11 and we're at the break even point. We've gotten as many of our people killed as they did to us. What a lovely way to pay tribute to all involved.
And Jost's points are also well taken. My first time back with my GP here in NYC, talking about my own PTSD, he brought up how we have a good part of a generation (again) who will be suffereing from it, and the look of pain on his face was almost unbearable. And it's not just the mind/head wounds. Lost sight. Lost hearing. Lost limbs.
Having left New York for a while, or even through correspondence before I left and now that I'm back, people elsewhere tell me that they cannot imagine what it must have been like to be in the City that day, or to have been as close as I was, or even closer. And they're right. They'll never know it. But when their husbands and wives, sons and daughters, friends and neighbors return from Iraq, they WILL have that horrible experience brought back into their homes and neighborhoods. And then, maybe, some will learn.
Posted by Squiggles on September 9, 2006, at 14:51:24
In reply to Re: The Body Count.... » finelinebob, posted by Declan on September 8, 2006, at 15:31:27
The prime ministers, along with the generals,
presidents, kings, should lead the assaults
in person, at the front line-- like the old military strategies.It would result in a far smaller body count.
Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on September 10, 2006, at 14:12:34
In reply to Re: The Body Count.... » Declan, posted by Squiggles on September 9, 2006, at 14:51:24
I watched a television show on CNN
last night on the historical development
of bin Laden's 'foundation' or 'base'
development. It revealed some aspects
of the war on terror, which i was ignorant
of, if the presentation was accurate.
I have a bad habit of being influenced
without doing my homework, not just in
politics but other areas too.After this show, i would say, leave the
fundamentalists alone to believe whatever
they like. Religion especially is conducive
to the growth of factions.
Freedom of religion and respect for others'
religion may be what smooths the wheels of
civilization.Squiggles
Posted by Declan on September 10, 2006, at 21:16:59
In reply to Re: The Body Count.... » Squiggles, posted by Squiggles on September 10, 2006, at 14:12:34
50 years ago there wasn't much of it, was there?
There's something causing fundamentalism to prosper. Maybe it's globalisation and the response of vulnerable cultures that feel under threat?
Which is easy because everone can feel threatened, the human race being so paranoid and not without reason.Not just the Abrahamic religions either. Hindu fundamentalists as well.
Posted by Squiggles on September 10, 2006, at 21:55:05
In reply to Fundamentalism » Squiggles, posted by Declan on September 10, 2006, at 21:16:59
> 50 years ago there wasn't much of it, was there?
Well, i think it has been with us as long
as the human race has-- for whatever reasons.
In a complicated world as you describe, today,
it may be absolutely necessary to tolerate
foreign ideas, and stick to trade for coexistence--
i think that's diplomacy, right? A lot of
lives could have been spared if the approach
was taken in an international approach by the
US gov. under President Bush - a lot less
body counts. US and the Middle East have
been trading for eons - it's either trade
or colonialism/imperialism.Squiggles
Posted by finelinebob on September 11, 2006, at 0:04:03
In reply to Re: Fundamentalism » Declan, posted by Squiggles on September 10, 2006, at 21:55:05
> > 50 years ago there wasn't much of it, was there?
>
> Well, i think it has been with us as long
> as the human race has-- for whatever reasons.
> ... - it's either trade
> or colonialism/imperialism.I can't say anything about non-Christian religions, but there certainly have been violently "fundamentalist" times and movements in Christianity -- the Crusades, the Inquisition, wars of Catholics versus Protestants, persecution of certain Protestant faiths by a different, dominant Protestant faith.
In grad school, I was fortunate to have Rafe Ezekiel, author of "A Racist Mind", talk about the research that he did for the book. As a social psychologist, who focused on ethnographic research and field studies, and as a Jew, he wanted to find out why neo-Nazis believed the way that they did which here, in the US, is as much an issue of race as it is of religion. His research centered around three different sources: a neo-Nazi book store in a lower-class, industrial/residential suburb of Detroit; interviews of the leaders of 3 different neo-Nazi groups; and perhaps the most frightening and bizarre case where one of these leaders invited Rafe, under this leader's protection, to attend a two-week rally in a remote camp in Idaho.
Two things really hit home for me. Rafe talked about how the young men drawn to the bookstore earnestly thought that their beliefs weren't just beneficial for themselves, but that everyone else would be better off (even the targets of their hatred) if their way of thinking came to pass. In one breath, they'd express their hatred of Blacks; in the next they'd argue passionately about how racial separatism would be just as beneficial for Blacks as for Whites.
The far more frightening revelation from his research were his profiles of the nation leaders of the three Aryan movements he interviewed. What he found common in these men were (1) their lack of passion, even near indifference, to their personal devotion to the tenets of their organizations and (2) their true passion, which was being able to exert power over others through the manipulation of the message they were selling. Neo-Nazism, for these leaders, was a means to an end, was pure propaganda that stirred the emotions of a large group of people to the point that the leaders could manipulate their "followers" as they would have it.
But to a large degree, the same is true of what each of us might consider "good" movements, organizations, countries, religions. They thrive when a charismatic leader takes (or is given) the "reigns" and the "followers" have a strong, firm, clear message to follow. I'm not trying to make some statement on moral relativism, but on human nature. It appears there are far more "natural followers", even among this species which is supposed to be so intellectually and socially superior to the rest of the animal kingdom, than "natural leaders" or than individuals who seek the middle ground.
By the way, the body count is now at 3004. I wonder if Bush knows, or if he truly cares more about the lives lost than the political capital those losses are "worth".
Posted by Squiggles on September 11, 2006, at 9:07:02
In reply to Re: Fundamentalism, posted by finelinebob on September 11, 2006, at 0:04:03
I'll have to put "A Racist Mind" on my reading
list. I've read a lot on the Nazi propaganda and the influence of Hitler on an educated, Western,
European people. As i understand it, the Jews were already on "the hit list" as an underclass in many Eastern European countries during the time of the German Socialist republic. So, they were a target.What i have noticed is that during times of upheaval, or national strife or humiliation, such as Germany was undergoing at that time, the rise
of a "leader", who will take the nation back to its previous status of a great nation, is opportune. The public laps it up. Fear is a great motivator, and groups who are not part of the shaky identity of the nation are excluded and become part of a cleansing drive. And the group can be minorities or other countries. Doesn't this remind you of what is happening in the U.S. and to those the U.S. has attacked?So, the circumstances have to be right for racism and war to arise. I think the most powerful circumstances are economic ones which may deteriorate the image of the nation, along with the consequent social problems which cannot be or will not be resolved-- it is easier to wage war.
The social conditions which can prevent such upheavals, are a cosmopolitan environment, which grows under a mingling of cultures. That cannot be forced on people but comes naturally when there is trade between nations, neighbourhoods, and neighbours. Familiarity between groups promotes friendship and tolerance. So, nationalism and its associated religious uniqueness is a good foundation for fundamentalism and just like the weather, when clouds start to form, the differences become significant triggers.
It's almost like an organic mass with its own laws
when observed from a bird's eye view.Now, that the mess has started, i think it's harder to reverse. It should have been prevented with better diplomacy.
Squiggles
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 12, 2006, at 6:17:39
In reply to Re: Fundamentalism, posted by finelinebob on September 11, 2006, at 0:04:03
Friends,
It is written here,[...able to exert power over others through minipulation...was a means to and end...leaders could minipulate their followers...].
The logic of Hitler was based of some sort as to the above according to a paper that you can read by emailing me if you would like,[Richard A. Koenigsberg, Ph.D.] that describes Hitler's message to the German people that there was a disease in Germany and that he was a unique leader had the cure.
According to Hitler, he talked about what he said he was doing what would be best for the country as a whole. Then I could show how Hitler was able to exert power through minipulation of his followers and was according to Hitler, a means to the ends. {email me for this if you would like}.
Lou
lpilder_1188@fuse.net
Posted by AuntieMel on September 13, 2006, at 12:08:49
In reply to Re: The Body Count...., posted by finelinebob on September 9, 2006, at 3:08:11
We're at the fifth anniversary of the second day of the politicization of 9/11.
Last night on the Daily Show he showed the clip of the pres saying "The fight for Baghdad is the fight to save civilization."
His comment was - if it is the fight for civilization, shouldn't we send more people??
Posted by gardenergirl on September 13, 2006, at 17:32:27
In reply to Re: Anniversary » finelinebob, posted by AuntieMel on September 13, 2006, at 12:08:49
Yeah, that was a very good question.
gg
Posted by finelinebob on September 13, 2006, at 20:49:58
In reply to Re: Anniversary » finelinebob, posted by AuntieMel on September 13, 2006, at 12:08:49
It's Vietnam and Watergate all over again. Dubya was right -- he's not forgetting the lessons of the past at all; he seems to enjoy repeating them. The lack of will, the diseased character that leads to nothing but lies.
Meanwhile, a group of five or six young Japanese adults came to Ground Zero and, as a gesture to promote peace, were teaching anyone willing how to make an origami crane, They said that the crane was a symbol of peace, and they were stringing all the cranes together. I hope they left it on the fence there.
They brought something else with them. Origami creations of elementary school children as gifts for those who stopped to make a crane. I was given a whale with the Japanese character for "love" drawn on one side.
Posted by AuntieMel on September 14, 2006, at 8:56:57
In reply to Re: Anniversary » AuntieMel, posted by finelinebob on September 13, 2006, at 20:49:58
How wonderful!
We made cranes at work that year for holiday decorations.
Posted by finelinebob on September 14, 2006, at 23:19:51
In reply to Re:Cranes » finelinebob, posted by AuntieMel on September 14, 2006, at 8:56:57
I wasn't aware of this until my T told me about it today.
There was a Japanese girl named Sadako who was 2 at the time of the attack on Hiroshima. She eventually developed leukemia like many of the children who were exposed to the radiation of the attack and survived that day. There is a legend that if you fold 1000 paper cranes you will be granted a wish. When Sadako was told of this, she started folding hoping to be healed, wishing that no children would have to suffer from war as she had. She died with something like 600 cranes folded. Her classmates took up her task, tho, and finished folding the cranes for her.
There are several books out there about this,including "One Thousand Paper Cranes: The Story of Sadako and the Children's Peace Statue ".
This is the end of the thread.
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