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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Declan on July 14, 2006, at 17:55:11
What to say about the middle east atm? Any ideas?
Not being above schadenfreude I recall Rupert Murdoch's prediction before the Iraq thing that oil would come down to $20 a barrell (sp?).
What's that saying? Who was it who said that no plan survives contact with the enemy? O dear, what a mess.
It feels like anything could happen. Iran, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia(!). And all those pipelines. Interesting, hey?
Declan
Posted by james K on July 17, 2006, at 1:45:51
In reply to The Middle East, posted by Declan on July 14, 2006, at 17:55:11
I'm afraid that this might actually be the start of www3. The convergance of all that has been happening with USA over there, India - Pakistan tension/terror, Arafat's death and hamas' take-over in Palestine. Many things happening. Always something happening, but more and bigger things all at once. Iran, Syria. Missiles and troops crossing borders. Dead civilians and soldiers. I'm trying to pay attention to the news, but not be overly focused. (for the sake of my own mental health. May sound shallow, but watching Katrina coverage too much hurt me.)
I get bothered when I know innocents are being blown up and my local news discusses it in terms of price at the pump. Gas prices do matter in terms of the greater economy, but I don't care if your 20 mile a day SUV commute costs 10 percent more.
I wish Kissenger or Madeline Albrieght or even Clinton, Carter, or Bush Sr. could jump in and help settle things down. America used to have some authority to broker deals. I'm afraid we've lost it for now.
We'll check tomorrow's news and see if there's escalation or pause.
James K
Posted by Declan on July 17, 2006, at 13:56:52
In reply to Re: The Middle East » Declan, posted by james K on July 17, 2006, at 1:45:51
Hezbollah is delighted when it succeeds in provoking Israel to retaliate; the more it can do this the more it succeeds?
Iran and Syria?
One false move?
Declan
Posted by Jost on July 18, 2006, at 20:16:28
In reply to Re: The Middle East » james K, posted by Declan on July 17, 2006, at 13:56:52
Yeah, but there is a breaking point. And if Iran is arming Hizbollah with ever-stronger missiles, there's inevitably going to be a point when the threat has become overwhelming.
Too bad the US has lost so much of its credibility, moral authority, power, and most vestiges of diplomatic interest, or presence.
It's an awful situation--has been for a long, long time.
Jost
Posted by Declan on July 18, 2006, at 21:56:17
In reply to Re: The Middle East, posted by Jost on July 18, 2006, at 20:16:28
I can imagine the whole Islamic world being destabilised. There's Chechnya too. All that oil. We shall see what happens. Hezbollah has declared war on Israel. They therefore become heroes throughout the Islamic world (except in Lebanon?) by landing some punches. This will play out for a long time. Those oil pipelines are going to need some guarding. Iran is in an interesting position, between Iraq and Afghanistan, able to influence outcomes in both, striving to get nuclear weapons. I would like to read Robert Fisk's latest book "The Great War for Civilization. The Conquest of the Middle East". It's pretty easy to empathise with all points of view.
Posted by 10derHeart on July 19, 2006, at 13:43:36
In reply to Re: The Middle East, posted by Declan on July 18, 2006, at 21:56:17
And here's a link...
"The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East"
funny, you can only find it by title if you spell civilization incorrectly(?) (alternate spelling, maybe?) as on the book cover...
I'd like to read this, too. Need to check w/my library....must NOT spend any more money buying books!
Posted by Declan on July 19, 2006, at 19:28:45
In reply to Re: The Middle East » Declan, posted by 10derHeart on July 19, 2006, at 13:43:36
Hello 10der
I'm getting it out from our library, along with The Lust Lizard of Melancholy Cove. When Robert Fisk spoke in Sydney he got a standing ovation. I read in the paper yesterday that one of the things happening is along the Shia/Sunni faultline; meaning I guess that the removal of Saddam was a boost to the Shia. I'd like to visit Iran (but maybe not now). A (female) friend visited Syria and said the people were hugely friendly (maybe not just now either). Always good to see these places while they still look forward to the world. Ten years ago in Hanoi everyone was so friendly and curious, but are probably less so now. Thanks for the link.
Posted by Jay on July 20, 2006, at 11:49:58
In reply to Re: The Middle East » Declan, posted by james K on July 17, 2006, at 1:45:51
> I'm afraid that this might actually be the start of www3. The convergance of all that has been happening with USA over there, India - Pakistan tension/terror, Arafat's death and hamas' take-over in Palestine. Many things happening. Always something happening, but more and bigger things all at once. Iran, Syria. Missiles and troops crossing borders. Dead civilians and soldiers. I'm trying to pay attention to the news, but not be overly focused. (for the sake of my own mental health. May sound shallow, but watching Katrina coverage too much hurt me.)
>
> I get bothered when I know innocents are being blown up and my local news discusses it in terms of price at the pump. Gas prices do matter in terms of the greater economy, but I don't care if your 20 mile a day SUV commute costs 10 percent more.
>
> I wish Kissenger or Madeline Albrieght or even Clinton, Carter, or Bush Sr. could jump in and help settle things down. America used to have some authority to broker deals. I'm afraid we've lost it for now.
>
> We'll check tomorrow's news and see if there's escalation or pause.
>
> James KYes You are right James...it would be spectacular to see Clinton or the Great peacemaker Carter fly in there, do their magic diplomacy, and restore some order. I read Albrieght's latest book, and she is RIGHT on the money about how wrong Bush JR's policies have been, and the fact he and anybody around him (besides his Dad) knows nothing about international politics.
The thing is, the current U.S. administration (and Canadians) see only the Israeli side, and support them blowing up innocents in Lebannon and such. Now I know what a bunch of whackos those Hamas et. al are, but did Israel have to *level* Lebannon and all the poor innocent women, children, men just trying to make a life like we are? Absolutely not. I can barely read through the newspaper because these stories in the mid east just affect my mental helath to the worst. Sounds dumb, I know. But I ask...man...DAMN...where is the f*cking humanity!
/rant
Jay
Posted by Jost on July 20, 2006, at 14:22:29
In reply to Re: The Middle East » james K, posted by Jay on July 20, 2006, at 11:49:58
There is another side to this, and even if it's unpopular here, let me articulate it.
Take a look at a map of the Middle East. Check out the size of the countries there, and check out where the oil is.
Check out the size of Israel.
Check out the peace agreement signed by Barak, and rejected by Arafat-- check out the type of government (or lack thereof) in the Palestinian territories. Remember that the intifada was started because Sharon--provocatively, no doubt--visited the wailing wall. So? The Palestinians had rejected a peace agreement that gave them everything they wanted---no maybe it wasn't perfect-- but they arenot going to ge the "right of return"-- that would be the end of the Israeli state.
Remember the bombing assaults from Lebanon, that have been ongoing in the recent months. The suicide bombings in cafes, markets, weddings. Would you want to live in a country where you and your family had to live with that sort of horror?
Why did Israel have Gaza and the Golan Heights? Look in the 1967 War--the Arabs had this territory and used it as a launching point for their wars-- and lost the territory because Israel defended itself and pushed them back, keeping that territory to protect itself.
Maybe the Israeli response is "disproportionate"-- I'm not really sure--I'm really not. But there is such a thing as the straw that breaks the camel's back. Is it disproportionate for the back to be broken? is it just that one straw?
Do you remember the wars against Israel, started by the Arab counties. Do you realize that the Arabs in the Middle East, by and large, do not now and have never accept the right of Israel to exist? That their power and access to weapons that could in fact "wipe Israel off the face of the earth" to quote a phrase has become increasingly direct and unstoppable.
Do you think the US overreacted--or reacted "disproportionately" to 9/11? At least in Afghanistan. (This whole Iraqi misadventure is another thing entirely.)
Is it a humanitarian thing to use "human shields"-- ie to put munition storage areas in civilian population centers, as Hamas and Hisbollah do?
I'm not saying that I understand exactly what is right or wrong in this situation-- or that there is any right, but only lesser wrongs.
I am saying that it's easy to blame Israel-- I guess-- but maybe there are a few things to be said in its defense.
Jost
Posted by Declan on July 20, 2006, at 15:25:37
In reply to Re: The Middle East, posted by Jost on July 20, 2006, at 14:22:29
Hi there. Before we start thinking too much about the rights and wrongs of the countries involved, especially western countries and Israel, it might be best to ask whether that's a good way of looking at it. No doubt some approaches are more unwise than others; we've seen some. I think we need to understand the area. For example, and I'm pretty ignorant, but might it not be the case that it suits both Israel and Hezbollah to continue the war? In Israel's case because it is a better way of getting what they want than negotiation. Mahmoud Abbass comes in here, he might have looked like he was getting somewhere. Israel could easily destroy Hezbollah if Hezbollah was an army, but since it isn't it may well suit Hezbollah to aim for the long term, not just in Lebanon which they will gain control of(?), but throughout the region, which will be radicalised. Until it is in someone's interest to stop the fighting (apart from ordinary people I mean) it will continue. What I am trying to say is that we should try not to view this through the lens of the west. The west admittedly has made a hash of things on and off there for almost 100 years now, but there's a complex political world there. I just don't want to hear any more about the middle east peace process. I feel like I've been hearing about it for 30 years and if this a hypocricy the world needs, I for one can do without it. I would just like to understand this particular place.
Declan
Posted by Jost on July 20, 2006, at 17:17:09
In reply to Re: The Middle East, posted by Declan on July 20, 2006, at 15:25:37
> Hi there. Before we start thinking too much about the rights and wrongs of the countries involved, especially western countries and Israel, it might be best to ask whether that's a good way of looking at it.
...might it not be the case that it suits both Israel and Hezbollah to continue the war? In Israel's case because it is a better way of getting what they want than negotiation. Mahmoud Abbass comes in here, he might have looked like he was getting somewhere. Israel could easily destroy Hezbollah if Hezbollah was an army, but since it isn't it may well suit Hezbollah to aim for the long term, not just in Lebanon which they will gain control of(?), but throughout the region, which will be radicalised. Until it is in someone's interest to stop the fighting (apart from ordinary people I mean) it will continue. What I am trying to say is that we should try not to view this through the lens of the west.
I just don't want to hear any more about the middle east peace process. I feel like I've been hearing about it for 30 years and if this a hypocricy the world needs, I for one can do without it. I would just like to understand this particular place.
> DeclanI was responding more to the post after yours than to what you said.
I'm interested in what you had in mind by the "lens [other than] the west"
I guess I feel like I personally have a perspective, which is essentially western, although I wish I had access to the perspectives of people who really understood the situation. I saw something a while back by someone who seemed very thoughtful, who said that there wsn't likely to be peace or accommodation in this generation, or maybe several generations, because the trauma on both sides had been too great to be overcome. That struck me as possibly perceptive.
Do you know any other sources of information? I'd be really interested in knowing about them-
I don't really trust Robert Fisk, unfortunately, although he's a smart, impressive guy.
Jost
Posted by Squiggles on July 21, 2006, at 6:05:02
In reply to The Middle East, posted by Declan on July 14, 2006, at 17:55:11
Very disturbing; the UN is
a Poodle Salon. I am having
nightmares. The world has many
problems these days. Could someone
invent a peace pill that can be
taken like a vitamin every day
- looks like man
loves to fight.My dog had a severe panic attack
last night - thunder and lightening.Squiggles
Posted by Declan on July 21, 2006, at 13:45:02
In reply to Re: The Middle East » Declan, posted by Squiggles on July 21, 2006, at 6:05:02
Our leaders? Squiggles, I've made a few attempts but the civility rules keep getting in the way.
Sometimes there's good guys and bad guys, sometimes there's not.
What could we support in alternative leaders?
You wanna have a go at that?
Declan
Posted by Squiggles on July 21, 2006, at 14:46:08
In reply to The World?, posted by Declan on July 21, 2006, at 13:45:02
> Our leaders? Squiggles, I've made a few attempts but the civility rules keep getting in the way.
> Sometimes there's good guys and bad guys, sometimes there's not.
> What could we support in alternative leaders?
> You wanna have a go at that?
> DeclanYour message seems out of context to me.
Please rephrase.
Squiggles
Posted by Declan on July 21, 2006, at 15:30:38
In reply to Re: The World?, posted by Squiggles on July 21, 2006, at 14:46:08
Well it *is* out of context, Squiggles. I guess I changed the subject. I've got nothing sensible to say about the Middle East.
You mentioned the world, and I thought about our leaders. That was all.
Declan
Posted by Squiggles on July 21, 2006, at 15:50:23
In reply to Re: The World? » Squiggles, posted by Declan on July 21, 2006, at 15:30:38
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 25, 2006, at 22:10:50
In reply to Re: The Middle East » james K, posted by Jay on July 20, 2006, at 11:49:58
> how wrong Bush JR's policies have been, and the fact he and anybody around him (besides his Dad) knows nothing about international politics.
Please respect the views of others (such as supporters of Bush) and be sensitive to their feelings.
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Declan on July 25, 2006, at 22:48:53
In reply to Re: please be respectful and sensitive » Jay, posted by Dr. Bob on July 25, 2006, at 22:10:50
What should be the basis of policy? A new Bismarck? The Book of Revelations? Tumtetumtetum. I'm glad I don't run any countries, they'd be invaded in a flash.
Declan
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