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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jay on June 12, 2006, at 6:27:39
Before you come to any conclusions...please read this..
Suspects seem strictly second-rate
Jun. 7, 2006. 09:17 AM
THOMAS WALKOM
NATIONAL AFFAIRS COLUMNIST www.thestar.com
If these guys are terrorists, they aren't very good ones. At least that seems to be the picture that is slowly emerging of the 17 men and boys charged this week under Canada's anti-terror laws.Their so-called training camp turns out to have been a swath of bush near Washago, where their activities — shooting off firearms and playing paintball — were so obvious and so irritating that local residents immediately called police.
Serious terrorists, like Osama bin Laden, base their operations in remote areas where no one will bother them. These suspects, it is alleged, simply trespassed on someone's farm and, when the owner told them to leave, gave him lip.
Serious terrorists, like the 19 who attacked New York and Washington on Sept. 11, 2001, try to avoid making waves. They try to blend in.
The young men charged this week apparently didn't bother with this kind of tradecraft. They apparently didn't realize, or perhaps didn't care, that large groups of brown-skinned urbanites dressed in camouflage are not a common sight in rural central Ontario.
So when local resident Mike Côté came upon a group of just such men near his Ramara Township farm last December, he immediately informed police.
As he told the Star this week, the group appeared cold, wet and bedraggled. Some had fallen though the thin ice into a marsh. The leader of these alleged terrorists was so disgusted with his young charges that he complained to Côté about their incompetence.
These, apparently, were the conspirators. One, a former army reservist, allegedly wanted to cut off Prime Minister Stephen Harper's head. How would he find it?
It appears that a good many knew the police were on to these suspects. Harper knew. So did Toronto Mayor David Miller. So did some of the suspects' neighbours. So did many near the ill-fated Ramara Township "training camp," who told the Star later that police asked them to keep their mouths shut.
But the alleged terrorists, it seems, remained blissfully ignorant. They let themselves get snared in an RCMP sting when one of the 17 allegedly placed an order for three tonnes of ammonium nitrate fertilizer, a substance that can be used to make bombs.
According to police, suspects happily took possession of the "fertilizer" when it was delivered, not realizing that the RCMP had substituted harmless white powder in its stead.
But then that seems to be the history of this group. For militant terrorists, if that's what they are, they are remarkably naïve.
Some, it appears, chatted openly online about their paramilitary exploits at websites such as the now-dismantled http://www.shaheed.ca, oblivious to the fact that the RCMP and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service regularly troll such sites.
"I got my gun and tomorrow in the morning I am gonna do some target practise (sic) inshAllah (God willing) hott," reads one 2003 posting. "Checked out some paintball guns today at walmart."
Shaheed, the Arabic word for witness, is often used to refer to someone who has died defending Islam — including suicide bombers. It's not a terribly subtle title for a radical Islamic website. But then not all of the postings on http://www.shaheed.ca were radical or even devout.
"Man, ppl always say the Ummah (community of Islam) is so weak blah blah," reads one 2004 posting. "What ummah? I don't believe that there's 2 billion or whatever muslims in the world....It sux."
"Alhumdulilah (thank God) today was the first successful day of work," reads another 2004 posting. "What a great day it was. Sure we were late, but it's far. But Alhumdulilah, the boss is really nice. ... After that we went for pizza."
This is not quite the image that the government and police are portraying of the 17. They paint the suspects as part of an efficiently sinister conspiracy devoted, in Harper's words, to destroying "freedom, democracy and the rule of law."
As such, the arrests last week come at convenient time for the Harper government. A rise in the public's fear quotient could increase popular support for his decision to keep Canadian troops in Afghanistan another two years to wage war against Taliban and other insurgents.
Polls show that public support has been slipping for that war. The spectre of terrorism at home, however, might convince more Canadians that the Afghan war is necessary.
(Given that police have said the suspects are homegrown terrorists unconnected to any international ring, it might make more sense to station Canadian troops in Mississauga, where most of the 17 live, rather than Kandahar. But it is unlikely the Harper government will make this argument).
The arrests also come at a time when Parliament is conducting a mandatory five-year review of Canada's new anti-terror laws. Before the arrests, there was a possibility that parliamentarians might recommend that the Harper government ease up on some of those laws. That now seems unlikely.
For this, we can thank one of the world's most incompetent — or perhaps one of the world's most far-fetched — terrorist conspiracies.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 12, 2006, at 6:27:39
In reply to Canadian Terrorists...., posted by Jay on June 7, 2006, at 15:04:45
> But the alleged terrorists, it seems, remained blissfully ignorant. They let themselves get snared in an RCMP sting when one of the 17 allegedly placed an order for three tonnes of ammonium nitrate fertilizer, a substance that can be used to make bombs.
It doesn't matter how incompetent they are. If nothing else, they must be made an example of. Some criminal law is all about deterrent. This is a prime example thereof.
The RCMP did not conduct a sting operation. They protected us from plans laid out entirely by these men themselves.
3 tonnes of ammonium nitrate is thrice that used to bring down virtually an entire office block in Oklahoma. I don't think Timothy McVeigh really understood the significance of what he was doing, either. And *he* was trained in explosives by the military.
One doesn't yell fire in a crowded movie theatre. One does not use the word bomb anywhere near an airport. And one does not purchase ammonium nitrate fertilizer, with even the most ill-concealed plans for its use, for anything other than enhancing plant growth.
Being poorly organized terrorists is no defense. No defense at all. These young men deserve whatever comes their way.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 12, 2006, at 6:27:39
In reply to Re: Canadian Terrorists.... » Jay, posted by Larry Hoover on June 7, 2006, at 15:37:52
> Being poorly organized terrorists is no defense. No defense at all. These young men deserve whatever comes their way.
>
> Lar
P.S.They should be billed for all the extra costs they're brought onto the Canadian taxpayers.
There ought to be civil recovery for this, too.
Lar
Posted by Kath on June 12, 2006, at 6:27:39
In reply to Re: Canadian Terrorists....P.S., posted by Larry Hoover on June 7, 2006, at 15:44:16
I agree with both of Larry's posts.
People have to experience whatever results come from their actions/words.
Kath
Posted by Jay on June 12, 2006, at 6:27:39
In reply to Re: Canadian Terrorists.... » Jay, posted by Larry Hoover on June 7, 2006, at 15:37:52
> > But the alleged terrorists, it seems, remained blissfully ignorant. They let themselves get snared in an RCMP sting when one of the 17 allegedly placed an order for three tonnes of ammonium nitrate fertilizer, a substance that can be used to make bombs.
>
> It doesn't matter how incompetent they are. If nothing else, they must be made an example of. Some criminal law is all about deterrent. This is a prime example thereof.
>
> The RCMP did not conduct a sting operation. They protected us from plans laid out entirely by these men themselves.
>
> 3 tonnes of ammonium nitrate is thrice that used to bring down virtually an entire office block in Oklahoma. I don't think Timothy McVeigh really understood the significance of what he was doing, either. And *he* was trained in explosives by the military.
>
>Sorry Lar, but I think this is a ploy that Harper's government in part has used to , just in time, drum up support for the war in Afghanistan and the Canadian "Anti-Terror Laws"...which happen to be at about time for their review in Parliament. I agree the book should be thrown at the people involved..I am not trying to prove them innocent. But I refuse to let the Conservatives use this as a tool to make a "Canadian Patriot Act" and turn Afghanistan into Iraq.
As said in the posted article, the RCMP *KNEW* about what was going on likely before even most of the teen members of this pathetic group even knew what was going on. The RCMP sold them white powder..not fertilizer, which if you had seen a few other articles in today's papers, was shown that it would be very hard, in particular for a non-farmer, to buy anywhere near 3 tonnes of this stuff in Ontario. Did you read the comments by some of the "participant terrorists"? Oh boy...one got all excited because the leader "..took them out for pizza..." and was all nice and warm and fuzzy. If they where VERY lucky...they could have earned their Boy Scout badges (the basic ones, anyways!) But, that might have been beyond their reach.
But...the logic must stand. Thinking about doing something does in no way carry the weight of actually carrying it out. Especially when your *means* of doing so are next to nothing. Politicians, of all stripes, like to use fear and rhetoric in overblown ways to scare their constituents into doing what, eventually, they ever want. The media is almost as guilty, as it sells "good copy".
Maybe they shouldn't have told of their "Canadian Domination" plans while running through the goldfish ponds and playing paintball to the 15 or so farmers who not only reported them last winter, but told them to get a life! Musta been the pizza...lol..
Jay
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 12, 2006, at 6:27:39
In reply to Re: Canadian Terrorists.... » Larry Hoover, posted by Jay on June 7, 2006, at 19:52:26
> But I refuse to let the Conservatives use this as a tool to make a "Canadian Patriot Act" and turn Afghanistan into Iraq.
They're in a minority government. They can't do anything, without the Liberals and NDP going along with it.
> But...the logic must stand. Thinking about doing something does in no way carry the weight of actually carrying it out.
What logic is that? They didn't get charged with thinking about it. They got charged with conspiracy to commit. They had mens rea, thinking they were obtaining the key ingredient for a bomb. That the police supplied them with bags of something else is not relevent. It's no different than when they seize heroin, and substitute dextrose powder, and observe the criminal activities without leaving the public at risk that the real stuff can make it to the streets.
> Especially when your *means* of doing so are next to nothing.
If they had actually gotten that chemical, they had the means. That's what they're charged with doing. Having the means, to the best of their knowledge. They shopped for, purchased, and took delivery of bags that were labelled with a specific product name. They didn't call the shipper up, and say, "Hey, we didn't order ammonium nitrate. We ordered sodium chloride." Maybe it was salt that they got, but it's irrelevent to mens rea. Guilty mind. They thought they got the real deal. You mark my words, they have tape recordings affirming that they thought they had the means to carry out their plan. Wait until the trial, and remember this specific detail. They were taped. I guarantee that they were.
It's only the second such charge ever, in Canada. It's hardly a mis-used law, this section of the Criminal Code of Canada. There ought not to be a person unaware of that law, let alone a conspirator group of 17 or 20 educated men.
> Politicians, of all stripes, like to use fear and rhetoric in overblown ways to scare their constituents into doing what, eventually, they ever want. The media is almost as guilty, as it sells "good copy".
What am I being scared into doing? I saw my government step up and show anybody who's got the slightest inkling of trying something similar......don't even go there. Ya know? This is not a high school prank. We're talking about the equivalent of dozens of cases of dynamite. Hundreds of sticks. And they had built a detonator. And they had targets, on paper. Written down.
> Maybe they shouldn't have told of their "Canadian Domination" plans while running through the goldfish ponds and playing paintball to the 15 or so farmers who not only reported them last winter, but told them to get a life! Musta been the pizza...lol..
>
> JayI'm sorry dude, but these guys should have known better.
Talking, blowing off steam over a beer, is way way different than this. This wasn't paintball any more. They were inept terrorists, no doubt. But they were terrorists, under the law of Canada. They knew that. They tried to conceal themselves. Ineptly.
Criminal masterminds? No. Criminals? Looks like. They'll get their day in court. On our dime, Jay. We're paying for both ends, for this one.
I just read about one such mastermind, yesterday. A court officer had sent out a Notice to Appear at Trial, to some dude up on fairly minor criminal charges. The letter was returned, marked, "I don't live here any more."
Lar
Posted by ron1953 on June 12, 2006, at 6:27:39
In reply to Re: Canadian Terrorists.... » Jay, posted by Larry Hoover on June 8, 2006, at 11:32:59
who was sent to blow up a car? He burnt his lips on the tailpipe.
Posted by Jay on June 12, 2006, at 6:27:39
In reply to Re: Canadian Terrorists.... » Jay, posted by Larry Hoover on June 8, 2006, at 11:32:59
Hey Lar..
Here is an article that sums up my fears and feelings about Canada getting too "irrational" over the supposed "bomb plot".
No easy answers
Blaming all Muslims, or Islam or multiculturalism, is just a witchhunt against a rather powerless minority community
Jun. 8, 2006. 08:57 AM
HAROON SIDDIQUI
www.thestar.com
Dalton McGuinty said it best. He found the alleged Toronto terrorist plot to be both "unsettling and reassuring," the latter because law enforcement agencies have done their job, removing what has been described as Canada's greatest terrorism threat.Now the courts will decide whether that's what it was.
Let the rule of law prevail, in fair and transparent trials.
If we are hearing some skeptical voices about the dramatic charges, there is a reason. Similar claims made in 2003 against 22 Pakistani and Indian students — that they had planned to topple the CN Tower and the Pickering nuclear reactor — proved to be utterly false.
That episode of incompetence, coupled with the Maher Arar tragedy and the ongoing detention of four terrorism suspects without charge on security certificates, devalued the moral currency of the law enforcement agencies — always a liability in a democracy.
This time, however, authorities seem to be on firmer ground.
They monitored the suspects for nearly two years, as The Star's Michelle Shephard has reported.
They methodically followed leads at home and abroad, including the pursuit of two extremists in Georgia who have since been arrested on terrorism charges.
Officials at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the RCMP and other police forces worked in tandem, unlike in the bungled probe into the 1985 Air-India bombing.
Investigators kept their civilian masters, the politicians at the federal, provincial and municipal levels, well-briefed.
It was also reassuring to hear that police did not use the sweeping powers of the Anti-Terrorism Act. While some of the 17 people arrested have been charged under provisions of that act, most of the investigative work was done under the old rules, without violating the rights of the individuals involved.
The day after the Friday night arrests, Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair and others met Muslims at the Islamic Foundation, Canada's largest mosque.
Blair was right to condemn the smashing of windows at another mosque by hooligans and to promise full protection.
In short, officials have been a model of responsible behaviour.
That, however, has not stopped others from fear- mongering or offering facile, racist explanations.
In the immediate aftermath of 9/11, responsibility for terrorism was laid at the doorstep of madrassahs, especially in Pakistan, and more amorphously at Wahhabism, the Saudi version of conservative Islam.
But the bombers of Bali and other spots were not products of such schools. Nor were they all Wahhabis.
Those who carried out the 2004 Madrid bombing and the 2005 London bombings were Europeans. Three of four British attackers were second-generation British citizens. The ringleader had studied business in university and been a teacher.
The 17 arrested Canadians are products of Canadian public schools and universities.
One of the British bombers was a con-vert, as had been a Belgian suicide bomber who went to Iraq to conduct her evil mission. Two of the 17 Canadians are said to be converts.
As in Spain and Britain, the alleged Canadian terrorists had no ostensible connection to Al Qaeda.
The Spanish, British and Canadian culprits came from varied ethnic backgrounds, offering few clues to their developing deviancy.
Like the friendly murderer from the neighbourhood who leaves everyone baffled, these young men have shocked not only their acquaintances but also their own parents, some of whom are middle-class professionals.
The common denominator among them has been that they are Muslims, some rationalizing their irrationality in warped Islamic terminology.
But what are we to make of that any more than that most white-collar criminals happen to be Jewish or Christian? Or that many members of the Mafia have been Catholic?
Laying collective guilt on all Muslims is as unhelpful as blaming multiculturalism for what has transpired.
Spain does not have a multicultural policy; in fact, it actively discriminates against its Muslims. Britain is semi-multicultural.
The United States takes a decidedly different approach than Canada, assimilating rather than integrating newcomers.
Yet, none of that has made a whit of difference to the terrorists.
Increasingly, security experts are pointing to geo-politics for the widening phenomenon of terrorism.
An official British report on last year's bombing concluded that the culprits were "ordinary British citizens with little known history of extremist views." They were radicalized and motivated by "perceived injustices" committed by the West against Muslims.
Similarly, speaking of homegrown second- and third-generation Canadian terrorists, CSIS's Luc Portelance said: "Clearly they are motivated by some of the things we see around the world."
Even that does not provide a full answer.
Most of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims, as many others of all faiths, are infuriated by the wars and mass killings of civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and other trouble spots.
But only a handful are channelling their anger into violence, as had members of the Red Brigades and the Basque separatists.
There are no easy answers. Blaming all Muslims, or Islam or multiculturalism is just a McCarthyesque witchhunt against a rather powerless minority community in Canada.
While we collectively ponder the best way forward, all Canadians must extend full support to security and law enforcement agencies to ferret out the rest of the estimated 300 potential troublemakers who are being monitored across the country and to bring them to justice.
No group of citizens would be more eager for such an outcome than Muslim Canadians.
Posted by teejay on June 16, 2006, at 20:11:16
In reply to Re: Canadian Terrorists.... » Larry Hoover, posted by Jay on June 9, 2006, at 12:46:22
Since when did canada remove the presumption of innocence? HAs any of these people been tried by a jury yet?????
We've had the same old rubbish inthe UK recently. A brazilian who took half a magazine on the face because he was late for work and now a pair of brothers who the country had already strung up who have now been released without charge (despite the one being shot)
Apart from the raging paranoia sweeping the western world regarding terrorism (unfounded in most case IMO), would someone remind me which nations invented terrorism? Oh yeah, "WE" did....how unfortunate.
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