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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 53. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Bobby on April 16, 2006, at 20:51:51
The Catholic church wants new members, the Republicans want cheap labor, and the Democrats want cheap votes.
Posted by Dinah on April 17, 2006, at 9:12:58
In reply to The illegals will get their free ride, posted by Bobby on April 16, 2006, at 20:51:51
To answer more seriously, as is my wont, there's another situation that troubles me greatly. I understand the desire to protect the borders, realize that the vast majority of people entering the country are decent hard working folks, but that people understandably get particularly angry when crimes are committed by people who are not here legally; have enormous sympathy for those doing what they can to find a better life for themselves and their families (although get a little worried at what is defined as "better" and whether it depends on a material definition); and am dismayed at the realization of how many people are denied the protections of legal residents when it comes to the workplace, and more horrified when I hear that as a justification to allow illegal immigration to continue. I guess I have no problem with the idea that people from other countries might wish to do jobs that American citizens don't want to do, but a heck of a lot of problem with the idea that people from other countries might wish to do jobs that Americans don't want to do because the conditions are very poor or the pay is very low.
It's a conundrum. I hesitate to say this on this board, but I wonder if Bush's plan isn't close to a good compromise. Making immigration easier but enforcing whatever rules we end up with more strictly so that we know who's here. I'm not sure he coupled it with cracking down enormously hard on substandard working conditions and pay, but I would. Enormously hard. And of course to continue to do what we can to strengthen the economy of poorer countries, keeping in mind and trying to minimize the unintended consequences of some of the plans on American citizens who lose their jobs to outsourcing.
I realize it's a difficult situation and my proposed solution may be simplistic and may overlook factors I haven't thought of.
I also realize that it's far more serious than you probably intended. Sorry about that.
Posted by special_k on April 17, 2006, at 19:13:36
In reply to Immigration » Bobby, posted by Dinah on April 17, 2006, at 9:12:58
i don't know that people from low socio economic status (who don't speak english as a native language) are typcially prized as immigrants.
so they go illegally.
there is a strike day planned for mexican workers to show the US how much the US relies on them for keep ticking along.
up and coming or been and gone
i'd be interested to hear how it goes.i wonder if they count as the working poor...
if they are there illegally then that means the number of working poor in the US is actually a lot higher than the official count...
Posted by tealady on April 18, 2006, at 6:01:19
In reply to Re: Immigration, posted by special_k on April 17, 2006, at 19:13:36
LOL.. If ya an illegal.. you can't point it out ya know by striking :-))
anyway here's some comic relief.. I needed some, hope it helps
http://jantea.blog.co.uk/2006/04/18/video_jokes~735336oh yeah, I'm a blonde at times too :)
tea
Posted by special_k on April 18, 2006, at 16:16:02
In reply to Re: Immigration » special_k, posted by tealady on April 18, 2006, at 6:01:19
> LOL.. If ya an illegal.. you can't point it out ya know by striking :-))
i guess the absence of tax number kinda clues the employers in???
er... sure you can. you just don't show up and then you watch the business grind to a halt for the day so they realise that jeepers they need those illegal immigrants to function.
but if they are legal immigrants... then i guess things like minimum wage would come into play...
i dunno how feasible it is to get all the illegal mexican immigrants striking. especially if the business threatens to fire them because of it... i don't know. some people might not be able to afford it... might be sending the money back to mexico for their families...
i think it is a good thought though
(i guess there isn't an illegal immigrants union or anything like that)thanks for the humour :-)
Posted by Bobby on April 21, 2006, at 17:35:36
In reply to Immigration » Bobby, posted by Dinah on April 17, 2006, at 9:12:58
It's just that I was kinda hoping they would be satisfied with taking back California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. Well, who knows----if we get enough illegals, maybe I'll finally qualify for a minority scholarship.
Posted by Racer on April 23, 2006, at 20:58:34
In reply to Re: Immigration » Dinah, posted by Bobby on April 21, 2006, at 17:35:36
I've spent a lot of time in places that historically have hired undocumented aliens -- stables. When I was a kid, the INS would sweep through fairly regularly and deport the guys working at the barn -- who would usually be back in a few weeks. As laws have changed, how it works out changed, too. Now most of them use fraudulent Social Security Numbers, which they seem to share around, as far as I can make out. One guy will use a number, then when he moves on, he'll give the card to someone else.
It's a tough question, and I am glad I don't have to answer it.
I do know that the work involved is not something it would be easy to find Americans to do. Who wants to clean a stall for $10 per hour? Especially when there are SO many of them? Who would reliably show up and clean stalls every day? And most barns actually provide housing for the guys working there, which is rarely up to the standards most Americans are looking for. (Although I have seen some mighty nice little cottages being built around here now at some new barns.) And barns are generally doing well to break even, so it's not like wages can go up very far.
So, when I look at the guys who've worked at the barns where I've been, they work hard, they are reliable (mostly), and they're necessary. And usually illegal. (Employment laws here, though, have changed: if they're not being paid entirely under the table, they have to have an SSN, so most do have one -- just, not their own...)
Maybe the answer is temporary work visas? Good maybe three years at a time?
I don't know. As I said, I'm really glad I don't have to work it out myself...
Posted by brkn_drmr on April 24, 2006, at 14:46:07
In reply to Re: Immigration » Dinah, posted by Bobby on April 21, 2006, at 17:35:36
Posted by Bobby on April 25, 2006, at 21:53:05
In reply to As someone who's worked with undocumented..., posted by Racer on April 23, 2006, at 20:58:34
I like you Racer. however, my ancestors dug ditches, picked cotton, unplugged toilets, picked vegetables and sweated in textile mills long before the upper class began to lure illegals. And they spoke english---willingly.
Posted by AuntieMel on April 28, 2006, at 10:56:26
In reply to Re: As someone who's worked with undocumented... » Racer, posted by Bobby on April 25, 2006, at 21:53:05
There is a wonderful woman who cleans my house and has for years.
When she first started she was undocumented, just trying to make a living. When the amnesty thing rolled around in '86, she applied to stay. I helped her with documentation, as did others who she took care of.
She's now legal, has learned as much english as she needs to (I speak no spanish), has bought a house and is a taxpayer. And I report her earnings and pay her social security.
She's been with us for more than 20 years and is a part of the family. I plan to put her in my will if I ever write one.
Posted by Bobby on April 28, 2006, at 15:33:53
In reply to Re: On the other hand » Bobby, posted by AuntieMel on April 28, 2006, at 10:56:26
That's a great story Auntie Mel. My wife did the same thing until she got her green card. However, we can't ignore the fact that many illegals do not pay taxes but are free to tax our social and medical services---putting many of our kids' futures in jeopardy. Do you agree?
Posted by AuntieMel on April 28, 2006, at 16:06:51
In reply to Re: On the other hand » AuntieMel, posted by Bobby on April 28, 2006, at 15:33:53
What do you mean by 'not pay taxes?' If that means no income taxes, then you are right - but anyone else working for that wage probably wouldn't pay income taxes *and* would also get the Earned Income Credit.
As for other taxes? Sales taxes? Gasoline taxes? Paid. Property taxes? Paid through rent. Social security taxes - ok, no pay but they won't get any retirement or disability from them either.
It's not a simple problem, unfortunately. As long as people can do much better here than at home they will keep risking themselves for it. Building a fence won't work, that's for dang sure. There's already tunnels you can *literally* drive a truck through.
And passing more laws? Why not just enforce the ones we have. Everyone is supposed to prove they have a right to work here (I-9 form) But *nobody* ever checks them.
Posted by Bobby on April 28, 2006, at 20:54:13
In reply to Re: No, not really » Bobby, posted by AuntieMel on April 28, 2006, at 16:06:51
I must agree with some of what you said---but when we pay $6000 in state taxes---call me selfish,but I want some of it spent on my kids. President Fox of Mexico has never tried to hide that fact that they were sending us the lowest class Mexico has to offer and that is how they will invade us---using our own system. Now for homework, check and see what it takes to get a work visa to work in Mexico. Mexicans plan to boycott America on May 1---don't buy anything, don't go to work, ect... Personally I am saving
my money to go on a spending spree on May 1.
I know plenty of good hearted, hard working Mexicans who do contribute to our society-----that's not the issue. It's the inevitable collapse of our social services, school sytems and working class Americans who DO want those jobs because of the sheer numbers of illegal aliens who are begining to sink the ship. Yes, I'm worried about my familie's future.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 28, 2006, at 21:57:12
In reply to Re: No, not really » AuntieMel, posted by Bobby on April 28, 2006, at 20:54:13
Mexico is planning to invade us?
gg
Posted by Bobby on April 28, 2006, at 22:46:57
In reply to Re: No, not really » Bobby, posted by gardenergirl on April 28, 2006, at 21:57:12
figuratively and quite literally---they already are/have. I tend to quite liberal, but when I look at the facts(Yes I read up-as I encourage all to), It is a very unsettling picture being painted in our front yard----sorta like the graffiti I see sprayed on walls and builings. SOMEBODY is going to have to pay for this finacially. It may be you and me giving up Social security--and todays children---God help them. Am I suffering from delusions?
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 1, 2006, at 21:55:50
In reply to Re: No, not really » AuntieMel, posted by Bobby on April 28, 2006, at 20:54:13
> the lowest class Mexico has to offer
I'm sorry your family isn't more secure, but please be sensitive to the feelings of those here from Mexico.
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 15:32:53
In reply to Re: No, not really » AuntieMel, posted by Bobby on April 28, 2006, at 20:54:13
I'm glad you've got the money to go on a spending spree. I didn't purchase anything all week, so maybe I balanced you out, but I doubt it. Judging from the state taxes you pay, I'd say you have a lot more financial security (and mad money) than I do, so my small protest probably couldn't counter yours.
By the way, in case you're interested, I have felt extremely hurt and greatly offended by your posts on this thread.
Posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:04:24
In reply to Re: No, not really Bobby, posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 15:32:53
your research? Provide references, links, whatever? (You encouraged us to look into the subject.) I'm particularly interested in the statistics you discovered relating to the negative effect on Social Security caused by immigrants as opposed to other factors. Thanks.
Posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:07:18
In reply to hey bobby could you share, posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:04:24
have? Personally, I believe in ZPG. What's your view?
Posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:09:10
In reply to Re: hey bobby how many kids do you, posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:07:18
do you drive?
Posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:30:57
In reply to Re: hey bobby what kind of car, posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:09:10
In my experience most of the "illegals getting a free ride" are native peoples, Indians. Just like our North American Indians. Ancient cultures who were invaded by Europeans, their lands stolen, their cultures destroyed. And they've been persecuted, financially enslaved, kept in poverty for a couple hundred years by invaders. By people who stole their land.
As for Dinah's reservations about "material gains", I must ask what is meant by that? Is it "material" to want to teach your children to read? To feed your children? To provide a modicum of health care to your children? Do "material" matters include living in a trailor that's not so riddled with mold and mildew that your children are constantly sick? Or is materialism about being able to see a theapist 2 times a week (and willfully refusing to "improve" so you can have lifetime therapy?) and finding a private school that precisely suits the needs of your child?
I'm sorry if I have some trouble with others' interpretations of "materialism". And with others' interpretations of "invasion".
PS Sorry, too that I got Colbert's name wrong. It's Stephen Colbert.
Posted by henrietta on May 6, 2006, at 0:53:19
In reply to history bobby, posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:30:57
I am truly sorry I was not able to remain civil in my above posts. I regret any hurt I may have caused, and will readily accept a very long and well-deserved block.
henrietta
Posted by Estella on May 7, 2006, at 1:43:20
In reply to Apology, posted by henrietta on May 6, 2006, at 0:53:19
i feel sad when people don't think everyone has a right to life (hence society has a duty to provide enough for basic needs being met for ALL HUMAN BEINGS)
because...
of feeling insecure that ones own family won't have certain 'luxuries' ('luxuries' i mean in comparison to basic needs like some kind of shelter, food, basic healthcare and education etc etc)
i feel very sad about that indeed.
(((((((hen))))))))
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2006, at 3:33:17
In reply to history bobby, posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:30:57
> Or is materialism about being able to see a theapist 2 times a week and finding a private school that precisely suits the needs of your child?
Yes, if I recall my point correctly, and I'm not sure I do, it occurred to me to wonder if that was a good definition of a better life. Or a worse one, for that matter. Or if it was even culturally insensitive of me to judge any one way of life as being better than another.
As long, of course, as basic necessities are being met.
My grandpa used to pick expired products out of supermarket trash bins, because that was the only way to get "luxuries" like store bought pickles or store bought bread. There wasn't much in his fridge that didn't have a big black X on it. But he and my grandma appeared to be happy people, at peace with themselves. By material standards, perhaps not overly successful, by other measures enormously so.
Posted by zazenduck on May 7, 2006, at 12:44:15
In reply to Apology, posted by henrietta on May 6, 2006, at 0:53:19
what are you doing in a place like this?
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