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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by TexasChic on April 13, 2006, at 19:21:08
"I don't think that witchcraft is a religion. I wish the military would rethink this decision."
-- George W. Bush to ABCNEWS, June, 1999Does Bush really think he has the authority to decide which religions are valid?
I listed some key paragraphs on this incident below. You can type 'Bush Wicca' and pull up alot of pages on the subject.
June 29, 1999
The Senate's oldest member has joined the call, prompted by a socially conservative congressman from Georgia, to bar Wiccan practices on U.S. military bases.
During a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing last week, Sen. Strom Thurmond, R-S.C., submitted a statement decrying Wicca, a nature-based faith, as irreligious and saying it should not be accommodated by the military.
Barr's likened Wiccan practices to "Satanic rituals" and said the military needed to stop allowing Wiccan celebrations to occur on bases.
The military handbook states that "the core ethical statement of Wicca, called the 'Wiccan Rede' states 'as it harm none, do what you will.' The rede fulfills the same function as the 'Golden Rule' for Jews and Christians; all other ethical teachings are considered to be elaborations and applications of the rede.
"I do not believe that the Armed Forces should accommodate the practice of witchcraft at military facilities. The same applies to the practices of other groups such as Satanists and cultists. For the sake of the honor and prestige of our military, there should be no obligation to permit such activity. This is an example of going too far to accommodate the practice of one's views in the name of religion."
Last week George W. Bush, governor of Texas and 2000 GOP presidential frontrunner, was asked by ABC News about Barr's concerns on Wicca in the military as well as the posting of the Ten Commandments in public buildings.
Bush said that he did not believe "witchcraft is a religion," and he hoped "the military would rethink this decision." Bush was then asked whether he agreed with the recent U.S. House of Representatives' vote that said states have the constitutional power to place the Ten Commandments in public buildings, including public schools. He said that he had no problem with the religious codes being placed in every public building.
In 1984 a federal judge in Virginia ruled that Wicca was a religion protected by the First Amendment, saying the faith occupied a place in the lives of its members "parallel to that filled by the orthodox belief in God."
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This would be funny if it weren't so awful - Wiccans don't even believe in Satan!
If this is old news, sorry. This is my first time one the Politics board.
-T
Posted by special_k on April 14, 2006, at 20:43:57
In reply to This is old, but I find many haven't heard of it., posted by TexasChic on April 13, 2006, at 19:21:08
personally...
i think religion should be a private matter and i'd rather see LESS of it (ie pull the 10 commandments too) rather than MORE of it.
there are too many religions in the world to display icons etc of all of them.
besides which... i thought the freedom state from church was one of those things we were proud of and thought was a good thing like the freedom of women to vote like the freedom from slavery and so on.
or maybe... i'm talking a different part of the world (England and her colonies i guess)...
re: what counts as a religion...
i could be wrong i could be wrong...
but i thought that it was fairly borderline whether paganism / witchcraft counted as a religion or not... i mean... there aren't any gods (to the best of my knowledge) and people worship nature...
i don't know.
i've heeard somebody or other claim 'mechanism' as a religion. i don't think that counts as a religion... it is more the thought that the world is made up of lots of mechanisms.
i dunno.
funnily enough... i'd have more sympathy with it being publicised etc if it WASn'T a religion.
But no...
Freedom FROM religion I say...
Posted by Dinah on April 15, 2006, at 9:16:40
In reply to Re: This is old, but I find many haven't heard of it., posted by special_k on April 14, 2006, at 20:43:57
I think the intent was more to protect religion from the state than vice versa. It's freedom "of" religion, not freedom "from" religion. And separation of church and state was meant to keep the state from establishing a religion and persecution of people practicing a different religion. Since a substantial number of our original colonies were established by people seeking the freedom to practice their own religion without persecution.
It would be difficult to see that our forefathers meant to exclude any mention of God in state matters, given that the Declaration of Independence mentions a deity, and if I'm not mistaken (and I well may be) there's some sort of introduction or quote not included in the Constitution, but associated with it that mentions God.
Freedom from religion is a far more recent public dialog, perhaps because of the growing atheism as a religion. And mentions of theist religions probably violate an atheist's right to practice atheism. But then possibly extinguishment of all mentions of god or gods might promote atheism to the exclusion of other religions.
Posted by TexasChic on April 15, 2006, at 15:01:20
In reply to Re: This is old, but I find many haven't heard of it., posted by special_k on April 14, 2006, at 20:43:57
> personally...
i think religion should be a private matter and i'd rather see LESS of it (ie pull the 10 commandments too) rather than MORE of it.
> there are too many religions in the world to display icons etc of all of them.
> besides which... i thought the freedom state from church was one of those things we were proud of and thought was a good thing like the freedom of women to vote like the freedom from slavery and so on.I don’t agree with mixing church and state at all, period. From what I've read, our founding fathers wanted a government that would govern people of many different beliefs while remaining neutral on that subject. At least, that's my interpretation.
> but i thought that it was fairly borderline whether paganism / witchcraft counted as a religion or not... i mean... there aren't any gods (to the best of my knowledge) and people worship nature...
Actually most Pagans worship a God AND a Goddess (sometimes many of each). Paganism is a term that covers alot of different belief systems including Wicca (witchcraft). The ones who 'worship' nature find spirituality with the earth itself - I believe I fall into that category, although I'm still tying to figure it out.
I looked into Paganism as a curious Agnostic. Their peaceful ideas and positive attitude appealed to me. However, I found it too similiar to Christianity for my needs. When I went to a few gatherings I had flashbacks of Bible studies. (My dad was a preacher). I guess it just struck home that it was simply another religion like any other, which wasn't what I was looking for at the time.
Most people are just uninformed when it comes to Paganism. I would think public officials would at least educate themselves before making decisions that effect other people though. Even a little bit of reading up on the subject reveals that they are 'extremely' peaceful and don't believe in Satan. That's why when you hear someone comparing them to Satanists you know that person has not bothered to look into it even a little bit.
> i've heard somebody or other claim 'mechanism' as a religion. i don't think that counts as a religion... it is more the thought that the world is made up of lots of mechanisms.Huh? I have no idea what you’re talking about there. But if someone considers it their religion, who am I to judge?
> Freedom FROM religion I say...
Freedom from people who can't just let everyone believe what they want and live peacefully.
-T
P.S. I'm no expert on Paganism, I just wrote what I've learned over time, so take it for what its worth.
Posted by TexasChic on April 15, 2006, at 15:20:14
In reply to Re: This is old, but I find many haven't heard of » special_k, posted by Dinah on April 15, 2006, at 9:16:40
> I think the intent was more to protect religion from the state than vice versa. It's freedom "of" religion, not freedom "from" religion. And separation of church and state was meant to keep the state from establishing a religion and persecution of people practicing a different religion. Since a substantial number of our original colonies were established by people seeking the freedom to practice their own religion without persecution.
Agreed.
> It would be difficult to see that our forefathers meant to exclude any mention of God in state matters, given that the Declaration of Independence mentions a deity, and if I'm not mistaken (and I well may be) there's some sort of introduction or quote not included in the Constitution, but associated with it that mentions God.
I always had the impression they wanted to exclude any mention of any religion in state matters. They many not have been aware of the existance of atheism, therefore it didn't occur to them that to mention a deity qualified as part of religion. Or maybe they did know about it, but just dismissed it as being an upsurd belief. I believe they had the best of intentions, but they weren't infallible. I'm just speculating here, I'll have to read up on the subject.
> Freedom from religion is a far more recent public dialog, perhaps because of the growing atheism as a religion. And mentions of theist religions probably violate an atheist's right to practice atheism. But then possibly extinguishment of all mentions of god or gods might promote atheism to the exclusion of other religions.
Now that's something to think on! Its like a riddle or something.
-T
Posted by deirdrehbrt on April 18, 2006, at 22:01:03
In reply to Re: This is old, but I find many haven't heard of » Dinah, posted by TexasChic on April 15, 2006, at 15:20:14
-T,
Thanks for posting on that.I'm Wiccan, a Pagan by definition. I've had a real hard time with this administrations dealings with my religion. Right now, there are families of Wiccan service members who have been waiting and waiting for the VA to allow their emblem of faith (The Pentacle; a 5-pointed star, with one point facing up, surrounded by a circle) on the grave stones of fallen service members.
This administration has voiced outright hostility to our religion. Many of the religious right political leaders are saying that Wicca is Satanic, which is a (to be civil) gross misunderstanding. Satan is a creature defined by the Bible, and we wiccans, indeed most Pagans have nothing to do with either.
Wicca reveres nature. Some of us worship gods as well as goddesses. Some worship just the Goddess. Many of us have a number of different names for different aspects of the Gods and Goddesses. Some believe in a real God and Goddess, some believe that they are symbolic.Most Wiccans would identify as Witches, but not all Witches identify as Wiccan. Typically, a Witch is one who practices magick, but is differentiated from ceremonial magicians such as the Order of the Golden Dawn, etc. A Witch doesn't necessarily view the working of magic as a religion. To Wiccans, magick is a part of their spirituality.
Many in the religious right are speaking out against books and movies such as the Harry Potter series, saying that it glorifies Witchcraft. In truth, the books are pure fiction, and the representation of magic in the books is nothing at all like real magick. While it is possible that some reading the books would become curious about people who call themselves Witches or Wiccans, the truth of Wicca or Witchcraft are so different from the book that the passing interest generated by the book would usually fail when the amount of work, and the reality of spells and such was witnessed.
Silly truths: Witches don't fly on brooms. Witches can't turn people into toads. Witches don't poison apples. Witches can't induce a sleep that mimics death, though if you are having trouble sleeping, we can use herbs to help you sleep.
Many witches are quite good with herbal medicine. Witches cast spells to help people.
One of our guiding principles is this: "An it harm none, do what thoug wilt". While seemingly quite permissive, this simple statement embodies the full text of the last seven commandments. Possibly more. Wiccans aren't permitted to do ANYTHING that will cause harm to another or to ourselves. Though that is an ideal to which we strive, none of us are perfect, but it is a very high goal.
Coupled with that is the threefold law, which states that what we do returns to us threefold. Some take this alegorically, some literally, but in essence it means that what we do has repurcussions in our own lives. If we visit ill on another, we can expect to see it returned in our own lives.
There are some who claim to follow a "left-hand path", or to perform black or dark magick. These are not Wiccan.
Still, some Christian leaders would say that ANY magick is evil and of Satan. In truth, most evangelical Christians believe that anybody who doesn't accept Christ as their Savior, which includes all non-christian (some would exclude the Jews) are deceived and unwittingly following Satan.
Personally, I don't follow that belief. Wiccans don't claim to have the lock on any sort of Salvation, nor do they believe it necessary.
We are peaceful, but we will serve our country. We pray for our country and for the safety of troops at home or abroad. We hope for a leader who doesn't dismiss our religion as quackery or evil. We hope for a leader who can recognize that religions other than his are still valid. We hope for a leader who believes that honoring the truth and upholding justice are at least as important as political goals and motives.
We're a part of this country, and deserve to be recognized as such. Our soldiers deserve to have their emblem of faith on their gravestones just as much as do Christians, Jews, Muslims or any other faith. We don't deserve to have fear-based reactionary untruths told about us for political or any other reason.
Sorry, this topic gets me fired up all the time. I get a news feed from Witchvox, and every single day I read about the political and civil slander directed at my faith all around the world. We're implicated when a Goth teenager takes their life. We're denied custody of children because of our faith. Teachers who admit to being Wiccan have lost their jobs, as well as have even bus drivers. In a country that espouses religious freedom and tolerance, it certainly seems that that applies to the larger subset of society.
It's funny though; Native American spirituality is Pagan, but that seems to be met with a bit more acceptance. I don't mind that acceptance, but wonder why it is that it is better tolerated in our society. (I'm part native, and am personally glad that it is as accepted as it is).
Maybe someday, people will begin to understand that Witches and Wiccans and Pagans aren't any more prone to evil than are Christians or Jews or Ba'hai (Don't quite remember where to put the ') or any other faith. Just as a witch with impure motives might try to cast a spell to cause harm to someone who wronged them, so can a Christian pray to god for ill to befall one who wronged them. It's all about motives, and any of us can do something evil if we let our motives stray from that which we know is good or right.
Anyway, enough babbling. Time for bed.
--Dee
Posted by TexasChic on April 26, 2006, at 20:47:38
In reply to Re: This is old, but I find many haven't heard of, posted by deirdrehbrt on April 18, 2006, at 22:01:03
One of the main things I took away from my experience while studying Wiccan and Pagan faiths was the 'Harm no one' part. I believe that if you put out negative energy, that's what you will get back (and positive for positive). Now I don't know if its psychological, or if there's a real thing involving energy that we just aren't capable of understanding yet, but I believe its the only way to live and be happy. I try to always treat people well even if I won't get any recognition for it, or even if the person doesn't treat me well. I've had strangers help me in bad situations with no other reason than because it was needed and they could provide it. Although not always appreciated, I think things like this do make an impression on people, which may in turn make them think about giving it a try. That's what I believe and I don't even know if I believe in God (for which I've been told means I have no morals).
I wish our government would actually take a look into these things before making their decisions. They are obviously badly misinformed, and have made no effort to change that. I've always found it ridiculous that people think Wiccans are Satanic when they don't even believe in Satan. It just proves they don't know a thing about it. They are actually putting down one of the most peaceful, moral faiths there are.
Now of course, I would never say this is all a Christian thing or anything like that. You can't ever make a blanket judgement on a group of people and be correct. People are just too diverse for that. I know of many Christians who respect other people's beliefs. Its just unfortunate that the loudest, most aggressive people get all the attention even if they are few in number, while the calmer, quiter, peace loving people are overlooked as a whole. The squeaky wheel gets the grease I guess.
Anyway, that's enough of my soapbox for tonight.
-T
This is the end of the thread.
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