![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 52. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wildcard11 on March 28, 2006, at 21:41:57
I pass this on because sometimes we just forget. This is a good one!
>
>
>
>
> Steven R Chandler, CMSgt
> 332 ELRS/Vehicle Management
> Flight Balad Air Base, Iraq
>
> The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at
> war...My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and
> I were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve
> and defend our Country again today. I knew that my husband would give him
> a good explanation. My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my
> son to go stand in our front living room window.
>
> He said "Son, stand there and tell me what you see?"
>
> "I see trees and cars and our neighbor's houses." he replied.
>
> "OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the United
> States of America and you are President Bush."
>
> Our son giggled and said "OK."
>
> "Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every house
> and yard on this block is a different country" my husband said.
>
> "OK Dad, I'm pretending."
>
> "Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and pretend you
> see Saddam come out of his house with his wife, he has her by the hair
> and is hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the
> face, he throws her on the ground, then he starts to kick her to death.
> Their children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are screaming and
> crying, they are watching this but do nothing because they are kids and
> they are afraid of their father. You see all of this, son....what do you
> do?"
>
> "Dad?"
>
> "What do you do son?"
>
> "I'd call the police, Dad."
>
> "OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations. They take your call.
> They listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help. What do you
> do then son?"
>
> "Dad.......... but the police are supposed to help!" My son starts to
> whine.
>
>
> "They don't want to son, because they say that it is not their place or
> your place to get involved and that you should stay out of it," my
> husband says.
>
> "But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.
>
> "I know he did...but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want
> you to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor who you're
> pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to his children."
>
> "Daddy...he kills them?"
>
> "Yes son, he does. What do you do?"
>
> "Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door
> neighbor to help me stop him." our son says.
>
> "Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get
> involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my
> husband says.
>
> "But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!"
>
> "WHAT DO YOU DO SON?" Our son starts to cry.
>
> "OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for
> help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and
> puffs out his chest. Guess what he does next son?"
>
> "What Daddy?"
>
> "He walks across the street to the old ladies house and breaks down her
> door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire
> and then...he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing in the
> window and laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?"
>
> "Daddy..."
>
> "WHAT DO YOU DO?" Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers,
> "I'd close the blinds, Daddy."
>
> My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him. "Why?"
>
> "Because Daddy.....the police are supposed to help people who needs
> them...and they won't help.... You always say that neighbors are supposed
> to HELP neighbors, but they won't help either...they won't help me stop
> him...I'm afraid....I can't do it by myself Daddy.....I can't look out my
> window and just watch him do all these terrible things and...and.....do
> nothing...so....I'm just going to close the blinds.... so
>
> I can't see what he's doing........and I'm going to pretend that it is
> not happening."
>
> I start to cry. My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the
> window, looking pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husband's
> questions and he says...
>
> "Son"
>
> "Yes, Daddy."
>
> "Open the blinds because that man.... he's at your front door... "WHAT DO
> YOU DO?"
>
> My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up
> his tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without
> hesitation he says: "I DEFEND MY FAMILY DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM HURT
> MOMMY OR MY SISTER, DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA FIGHT
> HIM!!!!!"
>
> I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs our son to his
> chest and hugs him tight, and says... "It's too late to fight him, he's
> too strong and he's already at YOUR front door son.....you should have
> stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife, and his children and the old lady
> across the way. You have to do what's right, even if you have to do it
> alone, before its too late." my husband whispers. THAT scenario I just
> gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good men stand by and let
> evil happen son, THAT is the greatest atrocity in the world. "YOU MUST
> NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!" BE
> PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN! BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!! SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT
> AMERICA SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR CHILDREN WILL NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR
> BLINDS..."
>
> This should be printed in every newspaper and posted in every school in
> America . Of course that won't happen so we'll use the internet. If your
> blinds are closed do nothing with this email. If they are open I do not
> need to tell you what to do.
>
>
> Steven R Chandler, CMSgt
> 332 ELRS/Vehicle Management
> Flight Balad Air Base, Iraq****and now i am REALLY going....
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 21:45:12
In reply to Here is another view...long but worth reading..., posted by wildcard11 on March 28, 2006, at 21:41:57
hmm.
i wonder how hitler put things to the nazis...
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 21:47:22
In reply to Re: Here is another view...long but worth reading..., posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 21:45:12
i mean... sure.
when you put it like that.when you put it like that.
but from the otherside...
and how are we supposed to bring those into line
to discuss things.?
i despair sometimes...
i do.
because the power of rhetoric...
is appropriated by both sides
and still people die...
Posted by wildcard11 on March 28, 2006, at 21:52:25
In reply to Re: Here is another view...long but worth reading..., posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 21:45:12
at all. just thought it was another view from someone in Iraq that was worth reading. they are there, in the awful conditions and see things we could not imagine. i just felt they deserved to be heard also. now really, i have to leave this board, too upsetting. no one can win when it comes to war IMO...
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 21:57:46
In reply to Re: Here is another view...long but worth reading..., posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 21:45:12
i wonder what the 'terrorist bombers' tell themselves...
i wonder what people said to themi'm sure they feel equally justified.
but still people kill one another.
and what was the war about again?
WMD
but there aren't any.
there aren't any.
so... er... what was the war about again?
what would the little boy 'choose' to do about the US military dropping a bomb on a wedding party?
what would the little boy 'choose' to do about the US military dropping white phosphorous on civilians?
the un...
was right. there were no WMD.
but for some reason the opinion of people in the USA
is worth more than the opinion of people outside.how many americans need to believe in invasion for it to happen?
how many people in the rest of the world need to oppose it for it not to happen?why is it that the USA gets to decide...
?
consider this.
he sits there in his house.
(never mind what is going on in the house)
(never mind what is going on in the country)
(never mind what is happening in most parts of the world)focus on one tiny little aspect of it...
and they are coming to get you!
they are coming to get you!and of course they aren't but tell it to yourself one hundred times...
and that justifies invasion.
and a bomb was dropped on a wedding party
and white phosphorous was dropped on civiliansand uncle sam says 'we are here to help you we are helping you'
while civilians flesh meltswhy doesn't the majority of the country
the world
believe that the us is there to 'help'
that the us is 'helping'?
white phosphorous was dropped on civilians.
killing doesn't help
it HURTS
it HURTSand around half of america believes it is helping
and the rest of the country...
the rest of the world...who is running the show?
other countries don't have enough power...
when it comes to war crimes...those prosecuted tend to be those who lost the war
not becaues they are necessarily the worst offenders
but because the money of the winners lines the pockets of the mediaand still people die
but its okay so long as you feel justified i guess.
i feel sick
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 22:15:24
In reply to Re: Here is another view...long but worth reading..., posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 21:57:46
In a funny / bad mood today.
I'm really sorry
(((((wildcard))))
thanks for posting that.
sorry i jumped :-(
sorry
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 28, 2006, at 23:24:16
In reply to Re: Here is another view...long but worth reading..., posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 21:57:46
> for some reason the opinion of people in the USA
> is worth more than the opinion of people outside.Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to be sarcastic or to post anything that could lead others to feel put down, could you please rephrase that?
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
One possibility is to ask another poster to be your "civility buddy" and preview posts before you submit them.
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 23:44:36
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » special_k, posted by Dr. Bob on March 28, 2006, at 23:24:16
Sorry :-(
...> > for some reason the opinion of people in the USA
> > is worth more than the opinion of people outside.
> Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to be sarcastic or to post anything that could lead others to feel put down, could you please rephrase that?Ok. There wasn't any sarcasm in that...
I just meant...
Do a poll...
Let every person in the world count for one...
How many thought the US should have invaded (at the time in which it did)?
How many think the US should withdraw their troops (right now)?
I think you will find that within america... the numbers will be close.
I think you will find that once every person in the world gets one vote...That the overwhelming majority of people around the world would say no to invasion and that the toops should withdraw.
So...
If that really is the case
(is that seriously debated - maybe it is?)If that really is the case...
Then how come the US gets to override the wishes of the majority of citizens in the world?
If it is seriously debated...
Well...
I gave a link before to the poll where the majority of citizens in Iraq want US troops to withdraw...
And there have been polls haven't there?
I'm pretty sure there have been...
So I am wondering just what kind of democracy it is that the US is into... Because I don't understand.
Posted by deirdrehbrt on March 29, 2006, at 0:31:35
In reply to Here is another view...long but worth reading..., posted by wildcard11 on March 28, 2006, at 21:41:57
I was writing a reply to this post but it disappeared. I guess it was the Goddess' way of telling me to tone it down a bit.
Anyway, when I read this post, I was shocked. How could a father possibly put a young son through such an ordeal? It seems quite cruel, and I hope that it didn't really happen that way.
As far as the content though, it doesn't fit. It doesn't match the situation. A neighbor is one thing, but a sovereign nation is another. If one country deems itself to be the arbiters of what is good and evil, and to enforce it's views on others, what, essentially, is that nation? Many people are afraid that the UN is beomming the one-world-nation, but are they as actively imposing their rules as the United States?
So far, more than 34,000 CIVILIANS have been killed in IRAQ by our forces. Of these, 40% are children 14 and under. That's 13,600 children.
I agree that something needed to be done. I'm just scared by some of the facts of how this all came about. Recent news reports show that President Bush had decided prior to the results of the UN inspection for WMD that a military invasion was his plan whatever the outcome of the inspection.
I don't feel comfortable having the US as the arbiters of what is right and wrong in the world. We may not be imperialistic, in that our flag is not flying over Iraq, but we are imposing our form of government. Iraq may not be a state, but it is becoming, by military force, our desired form of government.
I have to wonder if another powerful country seeing one of our allies exhibiting cruelty to its inhabitants, threatening use of WMD, killing civilians.... and if this country decided to take action, what would the U.S. response be? Certainly we would be thrust into world war, say if China decided that Israel was being too cruel to the Palestinians in its' borders and decided to take action. (I'm not equating Israel with Iraq, only looking at what might happen if other countries decided that it was their responsibility to impose their version of justice on an ally nation)
In any event, the sad story of father and son doesn't come close to addressing the actual nature, cause, or realities of the war we find ourselves fighting. If a neighbor were being openly cruel to his family, I would call 911, tell the police, and intervene as best I could. Having some years of martial arts training, I would hope to save a life without losing my own. But that is helping a neighbor, not invading a sovereign country. Police departments are able to intervene in ways that the UN is not. Police departments act within their jurisdiction. The UN doesn't have blanket authority to dictate what's right in every country on earth.
Anyway, if I continue, I'll probably become uncivil. Suffice it to say that I'm not proud of what my country is doing right now. I'm hoping for change to come in the next election. I'm hoping that we'll soon bow under pressure and give imprisoned americans their right to counsel and to be either convicted of a crime or released. I'm hoping that we begin to treat foreign prisoners better and hold ourselves accountable for any injustice we might have committed. Basically, I want my government to hold itself to the moral standards we claim. I am wishing for the transparency that a truly democratic government requires. I am hoping for a just and accountable leadership. If that really does exist, right now, then I am hoping that someone can open my eyes so that I can see it.
Anyway, rambling again.
--Dee
Posted by special_k on March 29, 2006, at 0:46:31
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Dr. Bob, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 23:44:36
i saw some film footage where an american solider DID put up a US flag in iraq. it was met with a lot of protest... it was taken down... the official military people said they didn't condone that action but i guess it gives some insight into that particular persons mind...
someone asked before about whether any wars are just.
i'm not sure... i think peaceful means should be exhausted first.
and i don't think they were.
us supported saddam ok when he was towing the line... just when he didn't want to tow the line anymore that they started imposing trade sanctions (how many kids in iraq died due to those?)
and they weren't working out so well...
so then the focus on his crimes...
innocent until proven guilty...
you have the right to remain silent.you have the right to remain silent on WMD surely...
doesn't mean you have 'em
you have the right to remain silent.
democracy...
imo democracy is only going to be as good as the people have access to the relevant facts and make decisions on the basis of the relevant facts.
but democracy...
is that only supposed to apply within a country so that is what makes it okay for the US to disregard people saying they want the troops to withdraw?
just 'cause people have been killed doesn't mean the intention was to wipe out a whole race.
if you want people to move along from sitting on the oil and they happen to be one race of people and you start killing them to get them moving along from the oil then genocide isn't the intent though it might be the result.
i don't think people should fight.
peaceful means.
politics... reminds me of kids playing.
it does.
and when kids are fighting the solution isn't to send a bigger kid along to overpower the both of 'em...
Posted by ClearSkies on March 29, 2006, at 8:06:44
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Dr. Bob, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 23:44:36
FWIT, the recent television polls here are showing that less Americans are supporting the war than before. That more people do not support the war than do.
I think that there has been more negative press coverage lately on the administration in general, and the opinions expressed in the polls show that people are becoming very unhappy with where we are today.
(BTW I'm a bystander here, as a Canadian citizen living in the US. Although I certainly have personal opinions about politics, I tend not to voice any of them because I have chosen to not pursue naturalization, and so can't actively participate as a voting US citizen. Although I realise my opinions are valid, I don't have the individual right of placing a vote where it would reflect those opinions. Gaaahhh this is awkward wording!!)
(good heavens I hope this post is civil.)
Posted by Sobriquet Style on March 29, 2006, at 9:03:22
In reply to Here is another view...long but worth reading..., posted by wildcard11 on March 28, 2006, at 21:41:57
>"It's too late to fight him, he's
> too strong and he's already at YOUR front door sonIs that Bush or Saddam?
>"YOU MUST
> NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!"Make sure what you do is legal though son when invading a country :-)
>BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!! SUPPORT THEM!!!
Don't support illiegal activties son.
> This should be printed in every newspaper and >posted in every school in
> America .How would it presented in school, under the fiction or nonfiction section?
>Of course that won't happen so we'll use the >internet. If your
> blinds are closed do nothing with this email. >If they are open I do not
> need to tell you what to do.Alot of these chain emails turn out to be false and some contain virus's. Hopefully this one doesn't, but -
"Symantec Security Response uncovers hoaxes on a regular basis. These hoaxes usually arrive in the form of an email. Please disregard the hoax emails - they contain bogus warnings usually intent only on frightening or misleading users. The best course of action is to merely delete these hoax emails. Please refer to this page whenever you receive what appears to be a bogus message regarding a new virus, or promotion that sounds too good to be true."
http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/hoax.html
This one might still be going around
http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/iraq.war.hoax.html
~
Posted by Sobriquet Style on March 29, 2006, at 9:13:07
In reply to Re: Here is another view...long but worth reading..., posted by Sobriquet Style on March 29, 2006, at 9:03:22
>Don't support *illegal* (Typo) activties son. However by all means support people who are forced or led into circumstances unknowingly which turn out to be illegal though, because it wasn't them breaking the law intentionally.
I think thats politically correct?
:-)
~
Posted by deirdrehbrt on March 29, 2006, at 9:49:46
In reply to Re: Here is another view...long but worth reading..., posted by Sobriquet Style on March 29, 2006, at 9:13:07
Most, if not all American servicemen and women receive at least basic training on tht Geneva Convention, if only to remind them of how *they* should be treated if taken prisoner during war time. I don't know if those who are guards and such receive more, but would hope that they are smart enough to extrapolate from the way *they* ought to be treated to how they ought to treat prisoners themselves.
It's sad to see prisoners of the United States treated in ways contrary to the Geneva Convention.--Dee.
Posted by wildcard11 on March 29, 2006, at 13:26:46
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » special_k, posted by ClearSkies on March 29, 2006, at 8:06:44
I had to say this~ I am an American citizen. I DO NOT support the government. I feel they are causing more problems. I am saddened that GWB has the power he does yet no one can take it away?? Majority of the American people *I* know do not support this war, not one bit. They want GWB removed from office. War crimes?!? I myself don't understand BUT I WILL SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!!! Many whom are there b/c they wanted a college education or felt lost and this *appeared* to be a way out. Most are KIDS. They never expected to see this in their lifetime. It is a sad, sad situation. ****feeling a headache already~this is why i refuse to watch the news...
Posted by tealady on March 29, 2006, at 15:11:15
In reply to Here is another view...long but worth reading..., posted by wildcard11 on March 28, 2006, at 21:41:57
>
> I pass this on because sometimes we just forget. This is a good one!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Steven R Chandler, CMSgt
> > 332 ELRS/Vehicle Management
> > Flight Balad Air Base, Iraq
> >
> > The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at
> > war...My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and
> > I were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve
> > and defend our Country again today. I knew that my husband would give him
> > a good explanation. My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my
> > son to go stand in our front living room window.
> >
> > He said "Son, stand there and tell me what you see?"
> >
> > "I see trees and cars and our neighbor's houses." he replied.
> >
> > "OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the United
> > States of America and you are President Bush."
> >
> > Our son giggled and said "OK."
> >
> > "Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every house
> > and yard on this block is a different country" my husband said.
> >
> > "OK Dad, I'm pretending."
> >
> > "Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and pretend you
> > see Saddam come out of his house with his wife, he has her by the hair
> > and is hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the
> > face, he throws her on the ground, then he starts to kick her to death.
> > Their children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are screaming and
> > crying, they are watching this but do nothing because they are kids and
> > they are afraid of their father. You see all of this, son....what do you
> > do?"
> >
> > "Dad?"
> >
> > "What do you do son?"
> >
> > "I'd call the police, Dad."
> >
> > "OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations. They take your call.
> > They listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help. What do you
> > do then son?"
> >
> > "Dad.......... but the police are supposed to help!" My son starts to
> > whine.
> >
> >
> > "They don't want to son, because they say that it is not their place or
> > your place to get involved and that you should stay out of it," my
> > husband says.
> >
> > "But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.
> >
> > "I know he did...but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want
> > you to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor who you're
> > pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to his children."
> >
> > "Daddy...he kills them?"
> >
> > "Yes son, he does. What do you do?"
> >
> > "Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door
> > neighbor to help me stop him." our son says.
> >
> > "Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get
> > involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my
> > husband says.
> >
> > "But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!"
> >
> > "WHAT DO YOU DO SON?" Our son starts to cry.
> >
> > "OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for
> > help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and
> > puffs out his chest. Guess what he does next son?"
> >
> > "What Daddy?"
> >
> > "He walks across the street to the old ladies house and breaks down her
> > door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire
> > and then...he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing in the
> > window and laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?"
> >
> > "Daddy..."
> >
> > "WHAT DO YOU DO?" Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers,
> > "I'd close the blinds, Daddy."
> >
> > My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him. "Why?"
> >
> > "Because Daddy.....the police are supposed to help people who needs
> > them...and they won't help.... You always say that neighbors are supposed
> > to HELP neighbors, but they won't help either...they won't help me stop
> > him...I'm afraid....I can't do it by myself Daddy.....I can't look out my
> > window and just watch him do all these terrible things and...and.....do
> > nothing...so....I'm just going to close the blinds.... so
> >
> > I can't see what he's doing........and I'm going to pretend that it is
> > not happening."
> >
> > I start to cry. My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the
> > window, looking pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husband's
> > questions and he says...
> >
> > "Son"
> >
> > "Yes, Daddy."
> >
> > "Open the blinds because that man.... he's at your front door... "WHAT DO
> > YOU DO?"
> >
> > My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up
> > his tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without
> > hesitation he says: "I DEFEND MY FAMILY DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM HURT
> > MOMMY OR MY SISTER, DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA FIGHT
> > HIM!!!!!"
> >
> > I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs our son to his
> > chest and hugs him tight, and says... "It's too late to fight him, he's
> > too strong and he's already at YOUR front door son.....you should have
> > stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife, and his children and the old lady
> > across the way. You have to do what's right, even if you have to do it
> > alone, before its too late." my husband whispers. THAT scenario I just
> > gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good men stand by and let
> > evil happen son, THAT is the greatest atrocity in the world. "YOU MUST
> > NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!" BE
> > PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN! BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!! SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT
> > AMERICA SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR CHILDREN WILL NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR
> > BLINDS..."
> >
> > This should be printed in every newspaper and posted in every school in
> > America . Of course that won't happen so we'll use the internet. If your
> > blinds are closed do nothing with this email. If they are open I do not
> > need to tell you what to do.
> >
> >
> > Steven R Chandler, CMSgt
> > 332 ELRS/Vehicle Management
> > Flight Balad Air Base, Iraq
>
> ****and now i am REALLY going....
>As I feel this may be directed at my poast, I'll reply.
IF Saddam or equivalent HAD coming knocking at your door.. ie invaded and started bombing the actual US , and if he had started mistreating US citizens in the US.. killing them, torturing them , imprisoning them ..
Obviously.. the right and just thing to do is to FIGHT.. its called DEFENCE
as I did point out that being invaded isdifferent. In my view a "just" time to fight!!
I thought I made that obvious.
But Saddam didn't.The answer to one side killing thousands or mistreating them (assuming this is the case) is not to go in and kill a few more thousands and imprison even more.
The answer is also NOT to take over that countries recources (oil income) then for yourself either.The answer Is NOT to put yourself above the conventions for war. The answer is NOT to rename the invasion as "not a war but unasked for "help"."
You cannot really call attacking another counrry on its soil DEFENCE. ??????
That "story" about the boy twists self-defence , someone invading his home and defending your family into an attack of a country on the other side of the world?That govt possibly may have been the countries best solution, at least in the South The US is not in a position to be judge, jury and executioner.
And the UN was asked ..and didn't agree??
It was an invasion attacking a popularly elected govt, the only one at the time that had some control of most of the factions in the south.
Perhaps if this country did not have a vast wealth of oil , or "Payback" was not a motive, the US would not have cared?
Consider Rwanda, a more obvious case of mistreatment of its citizens IMO. Did the US think it should "help" there..??
But there are many other examples. They just aren't as enticing as "targets".Everyone does have a choice, although admittedly in some cases its not great when its death or fight.
Posted by wildcard11 on March 29, 2006, at 15:31:15
In reply to Re: Here is another view...long but worth reading... » wildcard11, posted by tealady on March 29, 2006, at 15:11:15
~i just received it and it was a different view so i posted it. i must of missed a post of yours but i agree w/ you...
Posted by tealady on March 29, 2006, at 15:32:04
In reply to I fibbed, posted by wildcard11 on March 29, 2006, at 13:26:46
> I had to say this~ I am an American citizen. I DO NOT support the government. I feel they are causing more problems. I am saddened that GWB has the power he does yet no one can take it away?? Majority of the American people *I* know do not support this war, not one bit. They want GWB removed from office. War crimes?!? I myself don't understand BUT I WILL SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!!! Many whom are there b/c they wanted a college education or felt lost and this *appeared* to be a way out. Most are KIDS. They never expected to see this in their lifetime. It is a sad, sad situation. ****feeling a headache already~this is why i refuse to watch the news...
Yes I know how some of the kids ended up in the army with the schooloing incentive.
But every war has been fought by teenagers (kids), as part of the troops. No different today.Consider Germany under Hitler in WWII.. most Germans did not support the war either.. the kids were fighting the war. The Germans did "SUPPORT OUR TROOPS" though. It's the same( although the Germans had less choice)??
And yet the US(especially the Jews) has blamed the Germans.
Don't be surprised if the world blames the US?The Germans also obeyed orders in the concentration camps. An yet they were blamed too.
Their own prisoner of war camps followed the conventions for treatment of prisoners though.
Its the concentration camps that didn't. They didn't classify those as prisoners of war.Everyone does have a choice in how they treat their prisoners. Everyone has a choice on if they obey orders.
But, if you do follow psychology , you will see that most people just obey orders and in their mind this action is trsnferring responsibility for their actions to the person who gave the order.
That's how the army is trained..and the only way it can function as an army. Without a blind, unquestioning obeyance of orders and directions the army cannot function as a unit. The sticking together gives it the strength.. "united we fight, divided we fall" etc.But read up on one of the experiments run by psychologists back 40years ago.
There was a famous one where they got normal people in a trial. Asked them to flick a switch and administer a shock to subjects behind a screen IF they got the answer to a simple question wrong.
Most of the trial participants did it..and continued to do it inspite of the people receiving the shocks screaming in pain, even delivery lethal shocks.
I'm sure Dr Bob can provide a ref for you to read about this one? My memory is poor as I read it decades ago.
Of course, this experiment really didn't deliver shocks and the people behind the screen were actors.
But the majority of people just transferred the responsibility for the action of the possible murder of the subjects to the people in authority in their minds.. the person running the experiment. They questioned, but still went ahead and obeyed the orders or directives.
Normal people just went ahead and "murdered" on the instructions of someone else??
Bit of a worry isn't it?BUt its this obeyance of orders that makes an army function. They are just obeyng orders. Actually without hmans acting nin this way, there probably couldn't be armies or wars!!
It's the ability the get people to kill others and detach themselves and transfer the reponsibility for the killing away from themselves that allows wars to happen.The question is when do you stop obeying orders/ directives.
The Germans who merely obeyed orders were tried and some convicted as war criminals?Is it the same for the US military?
Posted by wildcard11 on March 29, 2006, at 15:45:02
In reply to Re: I fibbed » wildcard11, posted by tealady on March 29, 2006, at 15:32:04
I have never served so i cannot say what is the mind frame of soldiers. I do know that once you sign, you cannot just say, "I quit." The public *may* have been mislead so why not the soldiers? They *could* have went on the understanding that xxx was going on. Now they are there and they know and see more truth than i can imagine. I personally never supported or voted for GWB and recall when everyone thought he was 'great'. Now i do not here that at all. *If* the public of the US was mislead enough to believe GWB, then why not the soldiers? I know i can sleep at night b/c of those who gave their lives for *my* freedom so i will always support our troops. Just my thought on it.
Posted by Sobriquet Style on March 29, 2006, at 17:10:36
In reply to Re: I fibbed » tealady, posted by wildcard11 on March 29, 2006, at 15:45:02
>I know i can sleep at night b/c of those who gave their lives for *my* freedom so i will always support our troops. Just my thought on it.
I'm glad you can sleep at night :-)
How was your freedom in danger? If the US was invaded and attacked with nuclear weapons, or the threat was very real and the danger about to happen. I actually believe at present that the world is more unstable now, than it was before the invasion. However, whos to say it wouldn't be worse if the invasion never took place.
Here Bush says at the State of the Union address, 29 January 2003 on reasons how freedom would have possibly been taken away.....
"Today, the gravest danger in the war on terror, the gravest danger facing America and the world, is outlaw regimes that seek and possess nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons. These regimes could use such weapons for blackmail, terror, and mass murder...
Twelve years ago, Saddam Hussein faced the prospect of being the last casualty in a war he had started and lost. To spare himself, he agreed to disarm of all weapons of mass destruction.
For the next 12 years, he systematically violated that agreement. He pursued chemical, biological and nuclear weapons even while inspectors were in his country...
The dictator of Iraq is not disarming. To the contrary, he is deceiving."
Donald Rumsfeld, speaking to the press, 12 March:
"He claims to have no chemical or biological weapons, yet we know he continues to hide biological and chemical weapons, moving them to different locations as often as every 12 to 24 hours, and placing them in residential neighbourhoods."
They were never found, freedom was there all along?
I'll quote parts from another source which may have something to do with freedom for the Dollar against Opec euros.
"The Internally Stated US Goal of Securing the Flow of Oil from the Middle East
As early as April 1997, a report from the James A. Baker Institute of Public Policy at Rice University addressed the problem of "energy security" for the United States, and noted that the US was increasingly threatened by oil shortages in the face of the inability of oil supplies to keep up with world demand. In particular the report addressed "The Threat of Iraq and Iran" to the free flow of oil out of the Middle East. It concluded that Saddam Hussein was still a threat to Middle Eastern security and still had the military capability to exercise force beyond Iraq's borders.
The Bush Administration returned to this theme as soon as it took office in 2001, by following the lead of a second report from the same Institute. <2> This Task Force Report was co-sponsored by the Council on Foreign Relations in New York, another group historically concerned about US access to overseas oil resources. The Report represented a consensus of thinking among energy experts of both political parties, and was signed by Democrats as well as Republicans. <3>
The report, Strategic Energy Policy Challenges for the 21st Century, concluded: "The United States remains a prisoner of its energy dilemma. Iraq remains a de-stabilizing influence to ... the flow of oil to international markets from the Middle East. Saddam Hussein has also demonstrated a willingness to threaten to use the oil weapon and to use his own export program to manipulate oil markets. Therefore the US should conduct an immediate policy review toward Iraq including military, energy, economic and political/ diplomatic assessments."
The Task Force meetings were attended by members of the new Bush Administration's Department of Energy, and the report was read by members of Vice-President Cheney's own Energy Task Force. When Cheney issued his own national energy plan, it too declared that "The [Persian] Gulf will be a primary focus of U.S. international energy policy." It agreed with the Baker report that the U.S. is increasingly dependent on imported oil and that it may be necessary to overcome foreign resistance in order to gain access to new supplies.
Later the point was made more bluntly by Anthony H. Cordesman, senior analyst at Washington's Center for Strategic and International Studies: "Regardless of whether we say so publicly, we will go to war, because Saddam sits at the center of a region with more than 60 percent of all the world's oil reserves."
Have a read of the link, I hope its all civil, I think it comes from an educational source originally.
http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/iraq.html
~
Posted by Sobriquet Style on March 29, 2006, at 17:24:27
In reply to Re: I fibbed » wildcard11, posted by tealady on March 29, 2006, at 15:32:04
>There was a famous one where they got normal people in a trial.
The Milgram experiment (Obedience to Authority Study)
>I'm sure Dr Bob can provide a ref for you to read about this one?
Until he does :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
~
Posted by wildcard11 on March 29, 2006, at 18:08:44
In reply to Freedom, posted by Sobriquet Style on March 29, 2006, at 17:10:36
>>How was your freedom in danger?
I did not necessarily mean in 2003. I mean that i can sleep at night for those who have given their time and some, their lives throughout the history of the US. Have you ever lost someone very close to you b/c they were defending in one way or another, your freedom? I have. I have made it clear what i think of GWB by NOT saying anything but the troops from *my* country are there, right or wrong, risking their lives in conditions i cannot fathom, for me. I think that's a hell of a lot and yes, GWB put them there, nothing or no one else. They signed up for whatever reason,(i mentioned some above), and had to uphold to their *duty*. I'm almost positive they would much rather be home than where they are. Just to clarify again, *I* do not support the war. Most do not by what i have read. I can imagine a good bit of the troops do not either.
Posted by special_k on March 29, 2006, at 18:49:19
In reply to Re: Freedom » Sobriquet Style, posted by wildcard11 on March 29, 2006, at 18:08:44
Yes. You can't replicate the Milgram experiment because now it is considered unethical.
The participants were American (though to be fair I expect you would get similar results from people in most countries)
They did the shocking (most of 'em) then afterwards they were informed they were trying to see whether American's follow orders just like the Nazi's did.
Yeah... That's gotta be a little traumatic (more than a little).
I don't support the troops.
I feel sad for them.That was a tragedy (one of the tragedies) of Vietnam... The soliders come home (after being traumatised fighting) only to find that people had been PROTESTING the war and didn't support it.
I personally think the lesson to take from this is that if you go kill people...
You might be popular for a bit but eventually... People might well change their mind and conclude that it wasn't okay for you to have done that.
And we have to live with ourselves :-(
I feel sad for the troops.
Real sad. But personally... I don't support them if supporting them means supporting the killing of more Iraq citizens...
Posted by wildcard11 on March 29, 2006, at 18:52:59
In reply to Re: Freedom, posted by special_k on March 29, 2006, at 18:49:19
would you support any troops?
Posted by Sobriquet Style on March 29, 2006, at 18:59:33
In reply to Re: Freedom » Sobriquet Style, posted by wildcard11 on March 29, 2006, at 18:08:44
>I did not necessarily mean in 2003.
My mistake, I thought you was refering to Iraq, and how your freedom was in danger from that country. eg. danger in the sense the US would be invaded, bombs etc,
>I have made it clear what i think of GWB by NOT saying anything but the troops from *my* country are there, right or wrong, risking their lives in conditions i cannot fathom, for me.
And their pay cheque :-)
>GWB put them there, nothing or no one else.
And others pulling the strings behind the scenes no doubt.
>Have you ever lost someone very close to you b/c they were defending in one way or another, your freedom?
It would depend how you define freedom, like freedom in the context of wars and invading countries, or something else, but I think I know what you mean.
~
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