![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 31 to 55 of 66. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on March 23, 2006, at 9:29:39
In reply to Re: Subject close to my heart » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on March 22, 2006, at 23:59:24
:) Thank you.
Posted by verne on March 23, 2006, at 11:53:52
In reply to Re: Subject close to my heart » 10derHeart, posted by Dinah on March 23, 2006, at 9:29:39
Not sure whether anyone mentioned this (too hungover to read the entire thread) but I think I read somewhere Mensa accepts high SAT and GT (military) scores (just to name a couple).
verne
Posted by Dinah on March 23, 2006, at 12:11:46
In reply to SAT's and Mensa, posted by verne on March 23, 2006, at 11:53:52
You darling you!
I had only read the one page of admissions requirements, but when I looked it up, darned if you aren't right.
My husband, I, and my son apparently have all the documentation we need. :)
Whew. No test anxiety required.
Posted by Dinah on March 23, 2006, at 12:12:06
In reply to SAT's and Mensa, posted by verne on March 23, 2006, at 11:53:52
Posted by special_k on March 23, 2006, at 13:24:16
In reply to Re: Subject close to my heart » special_k, posted by Dinah on March 23, 2006, at 9:26:15
> Yes, actually it does, to some extent.
> He won't be hampered in any pursuit that depends on intelligence.
So you really would take a score on a test to be predictive of future performance? :-O
> He'll likely be hampered in some pursuits that depend on other factors.
And I guess he would probably be encouraged to do so...
> Can the tests be wrong? Sure. Some kids just test poorly for one reason or another. Can they be right? Sure. Does it affect a teacher's expectations? Yes,
So I guess I'm wanting to make a fairly strong claim that the difference between an average or a slightly above average score and a higher score and a yet higher score... Affects people's perceptions of the intelligence of the person involved and that is what has the biggest impact on the future course their life is going to take. I want to say that scores in that range... Self fulfilling prophecy... If you removed that would there be much validity between a Mensa score and a slightly above average score? I wouldn't think so...
> I just don't get the big deal. I really don't.I've already said what my problem is.
> But there seems to be a movement that makes it something you almost need to apologize for, or downplay.That isn't what I'm getting at. I'm getting at the legitimacy of testing. Not just in this context.
Funny... I thought you were against standardised tests for things like... Progress in therapy... Therapy improvement... How are these tests different?
Posted by Dinah on March 23, 2006, at 13:41:27
In reply to Re: Subject close to my heart, posted by special_k on March 23, 2006, at 13:24:16
Perhaps because I don't think they're that flawed?
Nobody knew my IQ score, but they still expected high academic performance from me, because that was my history. My son was at one school where the admissions office knew his score, but I have no idea if the teachers did. And during the hurricane he was in a different school where they hadn't the slightest notion of either his IQ or his previous school performance. His report from that school was even more full of superlatives than from his regular school.
There is a difference between slightly above average and well above average. I'm not quite sure how there wouldn't be. There's a difference between slightly below average and well below average. The difference between Bill Gates and me is great enough that he probably has trouble understanding why I'm so slow. To deny gifted children gifted programs is no better than denying children with developmental delays education appropriate to them.
However, expectations in life don't come from people's knowledge of your IQ score. They come from their history with you. And IQ scores aren't perfect indicators of intelligence. Any more than an exam may be a perfect indicator of how well someone understands subject matter.
But that doesn't mean you should throw out standardized tests, or exams.
I never said that I was opposed to psychological standardized testing. I rather enjoyed my MMPI.
However, I expect we're not going to agree on this, and I have no desire to argue with you over something that really isn't dear to my heart.
Posted by special_k on March 23, 2006, at 14:03:29
In reply to Re: Subject close to my heart » special_k, posted by Dinah on March 23, 2006, at 13:41:27
> Perhaps because I don't think they're that flawed?
Okay. I guess most people would agree with you. Because those kinds of tests are very popular. And because most people do take them very seriously. And because people make good money designing tests and administering tests and interpreting the results.
> Nobody knew my IQ score, but they still expected high academic performance from me, because that was my history.
I think you are plenty smart. And I guess I think a test would be... Irrelevant. Basically. Because things you scored low on could most probably be remidied if you could be bothered investing the time to get better on those kinds of tasks... I guess my point is... Why bother?
Please don't think I'm trying to say that your son isn't smart...
My point is more that... Please don't think other people are less smart...
(Because I think that is the flip side. Around half come up... Below average)
> There is a difference between slightly above average and well above average.There is a difference in test score. I grant you that. But I don't think it is a difference that could be sustained through someone slightly above average being very determined to improve their score and investing the time / energy into studying those kinds of tasks...
> To deny gifted children gifted programs is no better than denying children with developmental delays education appropriate to them.
But another consequence...
Is that it tends to be to deny slightly below or average or slightly above scoring people... The investment that could make the biggest difference to their scores (if scores are what is important). And then... The gifted program... Tends to draw the most interesting and innovative teachers. Teachers who have a lot of faith in the ability of their kids etc. So it gives those people... A better quality of education. I think that is terrific. But there are limited resources (in the public sector especially) and when it comes to where those resources are best spent (re the biggest practical difference...)
I guess it is just that you have seen the good...
And I guess it is just that I have seen the harm...
Posted by AuntieMel on March 23, 2006, at 14:13:31
In reply to Re: Subject close to my heart » Dinah, posted by special_k on March 23, 2006, at 14:03:29
"(Because I think that is the flip side. Around half come up... Below average)"
Well, actually half come below the median.
<grin>
I think the tests can be a tool. One of many tools. And I think they can identify a gift. But it's one of many gifts people can have.
My father coerced me into taking the test when I was a teenager because he was tired of my aunt bragging about her kids. I got in and I stayed in until he quit paying the dues.
I would happily trade this gift for another one. I'd trade it for a musical ability or an artistic ability in a heartbeat.
Being labeled "smart" ain't all it's cracked up to be.
Now, you are right that those with exposure to education and reading are going to do better than those who arent. But in a given population with a semblance of a homogeneous education system you would expect that the differences due to culture would diminish.
But - on the other hand - a lot also has to do with the family experience. Are those grey cells challenged?
Posted by Dinah on March 23, 2006, at 14:29:03
In reply to Re: Subject close to my heart » Dinah, posted by special_k on March 23, 2006, at 14:03:29
Actually, I lied a bit.
Part of the topic is dear to my heart. The part about gifted children having special needs that should be recognized as much as any other special needs.
Too well do I recall moving from schools that recognized that to schools that didn't. Fortunately I spent my bored senseless time moving ahead in the book and asking for extra assignments from sympathetic teachers. But not all gifted children would.
I never said I had a low IQ. I said I have trouble with the spatial abilities portion that seems to make up a lot of the Mensa test. I just didn't use my own IQ as an example, because, well I'm sure you understand. And since it's a few points below my son's and probably a few more points below my husband's, they were better examples anyway.
Does my son know he's more than ordinarily smart? Of course. He doesn't know his exact score, but it would be hard to miss that with the reports he gets. If they didn't want him to know, they shouldn't write that he is phenomenally gifted. And that was the teacher who had no idea what his IQ was. Does he know he's smarter than some of his classmates and less smart than others? Show me a kid who can't do a pretty decent job of lining his classroom up by relative ability. Does he think he's *better* than some of his classmates and not as good as others according to his intelligence? Absolutely positively not and he'd vehemently argue with anyone who said that. And so would I.
It's *just* intelligence, just like beauty is *just* beauty, and athletic ability is *just* athletic ability. Not acknowledging it is, in my opinion, putting as much more emphasis than it deserves as letting them think that they are better people because of it would be.
Posted by special_k on March 23, 2006, at 15:08:06
In reply to Re: Subject close to my heart » special_k, posted by AuntieMel on March 23, 2006, at 14:13:31
> "(Because I think that is the flip side. Around half come up... Below average)"
> Well, actually half come below the median.
> <grin>ROFL!!! Yeah, I was thinking there might have been something wrong with that as I typed it...
;-)(though... hasn't this one been contested too... regarding 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5. or somesuch... if i remember how to do medians - which i probably don't - 2 would be the median and yet more people score above two than below in this instance)
> I think the tests can be a tool. One of many tools. And I think they can identify a gift. But it's one of many gifts people can have.but then it is a gift people can learn to have... in which case... is it really a gift? when hard work can do the same. i mean... not everyone is gifted to be able to do it even via hard work... i guess i'm just thinking... that it isn't so important... and that when the tests are used at the top end (rather than for identifying problems at the bottom) i think they tend to do more harm than good. if you think the tests test innate abilities (which have future predictability) then they do more harm than good for the people who don't score very highly. the middle people don't get extra resources thrown at them... and the low people... might get some kind of judgement about their likely future performance (like the way the bell curve findings were used)
> Now, you are right that those with exposure to education and reading are going to do better than those who arent. But in a given population with a semblance of a homogeneous education system you would expect that the differences due to culture would diminish.er... if you could design a test that didn't have cultural bias... but then maybe 'cultural bias' just is a difference in the average test scores across cultures...
> But - on the other hand - a lot also has to do with the family experience. Are those grey cells challenged?and fed.
and so on.
and believed in etc.
Posted by special_k on March 23, 2006, at 15:16:56
In reply to Re: Subject close to my heart » special_k, posted by Dinah on March 23, 2006, at 14:29:03
it works out great for your son.
i'm not contesting that.
really.
it is a good thing for your son.
i'm not contesting that.
really.
i just don't buy into the whole system...
i personally think that when you consider the population as a whole... that kind of testing harms more than it helps.
i think it would have a better use as a dx tool for people coming up low...
so that they have more resources thrown at them...
but i'm just not so sure...
i get the whole boredom at school thing.
i went from a private school between 4-7 to a public school... where i repeated the same stuff for the next however many years.
and i learned to be lazy yup.
better would have been to...
encourage me to help others with their work.
would have kept me occupied...
and studies and stuff...
rather than the same old problems and just a whole bunch more of them.
sigh.
i guess it is just that i think of these tests as a way of legitimating the status quo...
like the GRE.
that is a personal bug bear of mine.
it is supposed to be predictive of success in grad school.
gee i wonder why... because a grad school won't take you unless you do alright.
and there is a cultural bias.
it was apparant to me.
then there was the point that people in the US can take courses to prepare for it. they are schooled in those kinds of tasks for many years in anticipation...
personally... i worked my butt off grappling with work in the field i wanted to be studying.
and yeah... i feel a little resentful that i couldn't apply to more schools because of that.
and yeah... i feel a little resentful that they charge you over one hundred dollars for the privelage of receiving a score.
and yeah... i feel a little resentful of how much money they make in running courses to prepare people (in the us) selling study guides and so on and so forth.
it is used as a screening tool.
as are other kinds of intelligence tests.
it does affect peoples futures...
because imo people have too much faith in these tests...
self fulfilling prophecy.
i really think that is the main thing responsible for generalisability etc.
Posted by Dinah on March 23, 2006, at 16:15:38
In reply to Re: Subject close to my heart » special_k, posted by AuntieMel on March 23, 2006, at 14:13:31
I'm not sure how many IQ points I'd trade for artistic ability, because they seem to be dropping off year by year on their own.
But I do wish I had been blessed with artistic abilities. I often long to be creative and am stifled by my total lack of artistic abilities.
And I suppose I should add that I also love the fact that we have a local school designed to nurture the gifts of those with artistic and musical gifts. And that it's not all that hard to find schools and other organizations to nurture gifts of athletic ability.
All gifts should be valued and nurtured.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 24, 2006, at 9:04:59
In reply to Re: Subject close to my heart, posted by special_k on March 23, 2006, at 15:16:56
"i personally think that when you consider the population as a whole... that kind of testing harms more than it helps.
i think it would have a better use as a dx tool for people coming up low...
so that they have more resources thrown at them..."
Well, consider this. Assuming, of course, that a school is silly enough to *only* consider an IQ test for kid grouping.
Those that "come up low" could have *different* resourses thrown at them. If they are different then there wouldn't have to be more of them.
And those who come up high would also have resourses geared towards them.
Then those in the middle? They wouldn't always have to struggle to compete with those who will always do better.
And they wouldn't have to lag behind because they are waiting for those who are slower.
Every child deserves to be in the best group for that child. And every child will do better if he is in the best group for him.
They separate the best from the not so great already in music (different band and orchestra levels according to talent) and for athletics (the best get on the best teams) so why not do it for brains, too?
Kids get picked on just as much for being too smart as they do for - well, not being so smart.
--
But again = my premise here was that a school was silly enough to go by one test. I think that is wrong, too. Many very, very intelligent people don't test well. If a person who doesn't score high is motivated enough to work extra hard to keep up he should be allowed to go to the higher class. And if a person who does score well is lazy he should go down to the middle classroom.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 24, 2006, at 9:12:28
In reply to Re: Please be kind? » AuntieMel, posted by Dinah on March 22, 2006, at 9:49:00
"I've got some specific deficits in my spatial abilities that would make it hard for me to pass the test. "
I cracked up when I read that.
When I took it there was a section for spatial abilities. It had slews of pictures of hands, gloves, shoes, feet all in various positions - upside down, sideways and so on. You had to tell if they were the left one or the right one. And it was timed, so you had to do it quickly.
I just used my hands and feet and rotated them to match the picture. It was quick and they didn't say you couldn't do it. When I got through I looked around and other people *weren't* doing that and I couldn't figure out why.
So - in that way I was smarter than them...
Posted by Dinah on March 24, 2006, at 9:47:02
In reply to Re: Please be kind? » Dinah, posted by AuntieMel on March 24, 2006, at 9:12:28
not such a badly designed test at that. :)
I'd like to think I'd figure that out. Because that's one of my better areas, and my specialty at work, along with quickly figuring out every bad thing that could possibly go wrong with any proposed course of action. Which is a rather depressing specialty. :)
Posted by special_k on March 24, 2006, at 12:27:29
In reply to Re: Subject close to my heart, posted by AuntieMel on March 24, 2006, at 9:04:59
> Then those in the middle? They wouldn't always have to struggle to compete with those who will always do better.is that really what you take from the tests?
that is to disregard everything i have said.
which you are of course free to do...
but it would be nice to think people understood what i was saying before disagreeing.
do you really think that is the message that people who score average should take?
that they will never be able to compete with people who score higher than them on some test because those people are destined to be smarter than them, to outperform them right throughout their lifespan?
do you really think that?
i don't.
that is the point.
but so long as that is the message people take...
it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
which of course works out just terrific for those who are well positioned in life to start with especially...
Posted by AuntieMel on March 24, 2006, at 13:39:49
In reply to Re: Subject close to my heart, posted by special_k on March 24, 2006, at 12:27:29
No, that isn't what I'm trying to say. Not at all.
"Those in the middle" contains probably 80% or better of the population. With about 10% on either side. But there are usually one or 2 kids in a class that everyone gives a hard time for being the 'smart' one. And who blow the curve for everyone else. What should they do?
What they often end up doing is not their best - purposely - so they will fit in.
Tests like that can be a tool. One of many. Like I said, they are not indicators of future success - motivation and work are far more important.
And I certainly wouldn't want to label anyone "average" or anything else.
The cases where I've seen testing used to do any kind of separation it was very low-key and subtle. The kids never knew their score and the parents only got it if they asked for it. So, while the school *might* have used it the kids didn't *feel* labeled.
I'm just saying if someone (whoever that invisible 'someone' is) used them as a tool to help design programs it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, as long as it isn't the *only* thing taken into consideration.
In my ideal world each kid would be in a class that teaches that kid as much as he can (and is willing to) learn and that brings out all the special talents the kid has.
Unfortunately when it comes to university entrance the test (SAT, GRE) is given too much weight. My youngest, one of the brightest people I know, doesn't test worth a poop. Her SAT scores didn't reflect her ability at all. And it affected the schools she could get into.
But she is doing really well in school.
What I don't understand is why you dislike them so much, and I'd like to understand. It really isn't something I've given a lot of thought to.
Posted by Deneb on March 24, 2006, at 17:45:47
In reply to Re: Subject close to my heart, posted by special_k on March 24, 2006, at 12:27:29
I understand what you are saying special k and I agree with you.
When we start separating people or labelling people, there is going to be discrimination, both good and bad. Does the good really outweigh the bad in this case?
Expectations of ability or lack of ability....
If I'm missing a leg, does that mean I cannot race? Or is it just that we expect that I cannot race because I cannot run? I might need an artificial leg, but would we have gone to all that trouble to give me a leg to race on if we had expected me to not be able to race??
Deneb*
Posted by special_k on March 25, 2006, at 22:54:06
In reply to rofl » AuntieMel, posted by Dinah on March 24, 2006, at 9:47:02
believe it or not many people still debate this.
whether there are genuine intelligence differences between different racial groups
(some say yes others say cultural bias others say socio economic bias)
if there are genuine intelligence differences (race aside) then there is the issue on whether those differences are innate or are more to do with environmental factors. if you are interested in the nature nurture controversy i reccomend "What's within - nativism reconsidered" which is very empirically informed and there is an exellent and very sophisticated analysis of the empirical findings.
because there are implications re eugenics. and also... what is to be done. what is to be done... re whether some children really should be put in accelerated learning classes... re whether some children shouldn't have much resources invested because there isn't any hope in improving their intelligence significantly.
Posted by special_k on March 25, 2006, at 23:15:43
In reply to critique of the bell curve, posted by special_k on March 25, 2006, at 22:54:06
Posted by special_k on March 25, 2006, at 23:35:44
In reply to Re: critique of the bell curve, posted by special_k on March 25, 2006, at 23:15:43
I mean... If a score on an intelligence test is due to innate ability rather than being significantly affected by environmental factors then...
Why have accelerated learning programs for the high scorers? I mean.... If they are in the top 2% then they are likely to remain in the top 2% and given the importance of scoring high on intelligence tests for such things as getting a good job and going to college then the people scoring high are going to do that anyway so why bother giving them accelerated learning programs?
and if people score low then why bother with remedial programs?
i mean... they are destined to remain low scorers to what is the point?
you could say that there are other skills that these groups can be taught.
sure.
but why seperate them to teach em?
i was streamed in high school. there were general tests and they seperated our classes in high school on that basis. i was put in the 2nd top class (my math score pulled me down). i was also a behaviour problem. they moved me to the top class because they thought i was bored. i continued to be a behaviour problem. but it was considered worse becasue i was leading the teachers kids astray (it was kinda funny that teachers kids and the kids of university lecturers and the like tended to do best in these general intelligence tests). so they moved me back to a lower class...
intelligence.
funny because i guess a lot of people in the world would consider you would have to be pretty intelligent to come out with a phd. pretty intelligent. how many people come out with phds?
what measure of intelligence do you want to use?
but why why why?
that is what i don't understand.
identifying problems for remedial action sure. if people come up with cognitive impairment on certain kinds of tasks then remedial help could make a significant difference to their future (i believe).
with the high scorers...
typically social skills training can go a long way (some schools do this). they have found that kids who do well on intelligence tests typically benefit from more phys ed amongst peers who are similarly unconfident.
etc etc
remedial once more.
make sense?
Posted by special_k on March 26, 2006, at 2:59:27
In reply to Re: critique of the bell curve, posted by special_k on March 25, 2006, at 23:35:44
there was a kid in the south island in nz who scored really highly on science / math. not so high on verbal.
she was around 11 years old...
and she was taking a class at university. biology i believe.
in the program they made a big deal of how she had a special talent in biology.
in reading etc she came up above average for her age.
her mother was on welfare. she helped her one hell of a lot. re reading the text books etc. the girl did her own tests etc at university but i noticed the tests were all multi choice.
i also noticed that she was scoring around 75%. that is an A-. That is a very good score don't get me wrong. but if you have an A- average well... that will get you some kinds of scholarships but not entry to the top universities in your field.
not at all.
i don't think her mother was pushing her...
but i think her mother was encouraging her one hell of a lot.
and it was coming at the cost of...
trying to obtain a relatively normal social development. re spending time with her peers. re phys ed. re reading and learning about history and all kinds of other things.
do i think it is a good thing?
her grade will be on her transcript forever.
i don't think her mother is doing her any favours.
she could have studied the material in a directed study at school in her own time if she was interested.
presumably there was mor eshe could have learned to do independently.
an A- on her transcript is something that she is going to be regretting later. it is. doesn't matter that she was 11 when she got it.
apparant to me...
and seemed it was apparant to her profs... that she should have waited...
but...
she was privately funded to do it. and i can understand why that made a huge difference to her life, her mothers life, and her younger sisters life (her mother was on welfare remember). on welfare so she could be at home with her children so she could be the best mother she could be to them.
what a bitch of a situation.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 27, 2006, at 10:44:46
In reply to critique of the bell curve, posted by special_k on March 25, 2006, at 22:54:06
Well, sure if you have people using one thing to "prove" the case for eugenics...
But those who argue for eugenics don't need a test to prove thier case. Reason doesn't really play there, does it?
There is so much more to a person than that one thing.
But it doesn't do anyone any good to deny that for some people there *is* that gift.
Just as it doesn't do anyone any good to deny that some are better looking, more athletic, more musical, kinder, gentler or possessing any other gift they are born with.
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 11:18:54
In reply to Re: critique of the bell curve, posted by AuntieMel on March 27, 2006, at 10:44:46
> Well, sure if you have people using one thing to "prove" the case for eugenics...
*support* the case for eugenics...
> But those who argue for eugenics don't need a test to prove thier case. Reason doesn't really play there, does it?
sure it does. there are some very sophisticated arguments involved. they typically aren't taught... probably in case people don't understand how they go wrong. but there are some very sophisticated arguments. if i started up with them.... you might have some trouble showing how they are in error... did you know the us and the uk were implementic eugenics policies before hitler took it to the extreme? that is what brought the whole thing in disrepute (as something to be feared). before that... it was fairly much considered to be 'common knowledge'. do you want me to consider some of the arguments? might be interesting... but some people might feel offended. then there is always the very real possibility that there would be a very good argument that nobody could come up with a refutation for...
> But it doesn't do anyone any good to deny that for some people there *is* that gift.
sorry what gift? what is a gift? are we still talking about score on an IQ test of giving us knowledge of ones intelligence? a gift from god i presume...
> Just as it doesn't do anyone any good to deny that some are better looking, more athletic, more musical, kinder, gentler or possessing any other gift they are born with.
>
er... why does it do us good to focus on these things? that is what i'm having trouble with. why does it do us good to focus on these?suppose someone is judged not to be musical.
is she likely to persist... or to give up trying?
how do you know she wouldn't have become a wonderful musician if she had persisted?
is the validity of the tests really the most important thing?
whatever happened to humanity?
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 17:00:47
In reply to Re: critique of the bell curve » AuntieMel, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 11:18:54
May I reflect back what I'm hearing from you and see if it's in line with what you wish to convey?
I'm hearing back from you that the idea of a range of IQ's is a fallacy. That everyone is of average IQ except for those people who for environmental reasons have developmental delays. And that environmental factors can also bump up IQ a few points, but not enough that you acknowledge that there is any real difference and certainly not any special needs on the side of purportedly high IQ.
And those psychologists who point out that the differences between someone with a tested IQ of 150 and someone with an IQ of 100 are as significant as the differences between someone with an IQ proportionately lower and a person of average intelligence, and that therefore people on the extreme ends of each spectrum have special needs are incorrect.
And that the major difference between me and Leonardo da Vinci is a lack of effort on my part. That if I received enough encouragement and my drive was great enough, I too could be an intellectual and artistic "genius" of that caliber.
Because IQ and artistic ability don't count for as much as effort and hard work and encouragement?
And everyone has an IQ and artistic ability equal to da Vinci and we just aren't expressing our potential?
If that's not what you're trying to convey, I hope you'll help me with my misunderstanding.
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