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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sleepygirl on March 10, 2006, at 1:16:00
I am struck by how divided the United states is in general with regard to pro-Bush/anti-Bush, conservative/liberal, etc. ideology
I recall a while back...here in NY, being in the city on a day when many protesters were in the city, carrying anti-Bush signs and all that. Well, later that day I had mentioned seeing all these people to some pretty conservative friends of mine, and immediately came the dismissive remark, "tree huggers!!". These are people who also believe that liberalism is tantamount to "treason", judging by the amount of time they spent in line trying to get a free copy of "Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism"
Now I shuddered to be witness to what I thought was fanatacism, and I was at a loss to understand their beliefs, but there you go. It simply isn't a topic we can discuss in any kind of "civil" manner so I avoid it like the plague, but I find myself attacked by their "beliefs" (or maybe they just took a "side"), and feeling like these reactions are totally divorced from the issues.
Going through Texas some weeks ago I was reminded again by another couple of "conservative" friends of mine that I am a "liberal". I was struck by how "different" that made me feel. I am after all who I am, and I've been trying to understand how that is, and how that relates (if at all) to what I might believe are important issues right now in the US.Why the heck have I written this post?...because I am trying to understand how it is that many continue to support a more "extreme" sort of ideology/political party
What is it in reaction to?I haven't a clue, but I know there are lots of intelligent and thoughtful people so I'll see if anyone responds or has any other thoughts.
Posted by James K on March 10, 2006, at 3:09:47
In reply to the liberal/conservative divide, posted by sleepygirl on March 10, 2006, at 1:16:00
Here I am, posting on Politics, in the middle of the night. A recipe for disaster. I don't know how or when things got as hateful between the "sides". I remember when I was young, I "hated" Reagan, while much of the country loved him and I couldn't understand. Meanwhile, a portion of the country "hated" Carter and I didn't understand that. (those feelings about those 2 men seem to carry on to this day). It doesn't matter what Carter has done great since his presidency, some won't forgive him for whatever they believe he did back then. Reagan didn't get the chance to have a post-presidency legacy, so I don't know if he could have changed minds. When Nixon passed away, it seemed that all was forgiven.
I wonder if the current crop of adults (me) raised in the beginning of that all or nothing atmosphere have taken as the norm and extended it. What Clinton, and now Bush face in terms of strong feelings flies in the face of reason. Or maybe the support they get/got flies in the face of reason.
I guess I really can't talk about it. I supported Clinton, and some of his policies and activities made me feel let down. I'm not a supporter of Bush, and wish he hadn't of won, but that is just my opinion.
What freaks me, is how regular Americans pick sides and fight, like it was a sports rivalry. When I worked in the bookstore, we had displays, some were based on sales, and some on promotions. People would come in, and turn Hillary's book face down, or Ann coulter's. Or they would demand to see the manager to know why Michael Moore was in the front instead of Bill O'reilly, or vice versa. It's just business here folks.
I wish there was more looking at situations for what they are, rather than what your "side" is going to "win" at. This goes both ways. Things are too important to just make a game of it.
I'm not even sure if this is the slightest bit related to what sleepygirl was discussing.
cant talk. scared to get blocked.
James K
Posted by James K on March 10, 2006, at 3:31:49
In reply to Re: the liberal/conservative divide » sleepygirl, posted by James K on March 10, 2006, at 3:09:47
I went to bed, then came back. I realized what I was talking about. It's how some of us in this country have bought into the media's take on issues.
for instance, the Dubai / Ports issue. We (meaning people like me who watch cable news and read news magazines) aren't debating "Is this a good policy, well thought out, within the law" "Is objecting racist" whatever you may think, but real issues.
We're talking "Has the administration finally pushed congress too far? Do the Democrats have an opening? how is this going to play? they have the ball. He's wide open. Touchdown! no wait there's a flag. call them back. The deals off. The polls are in. wow, Jimmy that was almost an upset. "
James K
Posted by caraher on March 10, 2006, at 9:21:06
In reply to the liberal/conservative divide, posted by sleepygirl on March 10, 2006, at 1:16:00
>... immediately came the dismissive remark, "tree huggers!!". These are people who also believe that liberalism is tantamount to "treason", judging by the amount of time they spent in line trying to get a free copy of "Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism"
Ann Coulter made an appearance at my previous school and amid the campus buzz for and against her visit I was struck by a statement urging people to attend made by a student in one of the sponsoring groups. The gist of it was that conservatives should attend because they'll enjoy it while liberals should attend because even if they hate what she says that rage will strengthen the foundation of their political beliefs.
What I found disturbing was the notion that somehow hatred of "the other side" was a salutary basis for one's political involvement. Is that how the writer believes "liberals" (defined as the people he disagrees with) generally think? Or is his statement a reflection of how he sees the development of his own politics, which he then assumes forms the basis of everyone's politics?
Posted by AuntieMel on March 10, 2006, at 12:43:28
In reply to the liberal/conservative divide, posted by sleepygirl on March 10, 2006, at 1:16:00
I think a lot of it is laziness. Using labels "liberal" "neo-nazi" etc. keeps us from having to talk about real issues and, more important, keeps us from having to become educated and think.
It's so much easier to put a label on it, dismiss it and go on our merry way.
Posted by Racer on March 11, 2006, at 18:14:04
In reply to Re: the liberal/conservative divide, posted by AuntieMel on March 10, 2006, at 12:43:28
Posted by Racer on March 11, 2006, at 18:25:30
In reply to Re: the liberal/conservative divide, posted by AuntieMel on March 10, 2006, at 12:43:28
What bothers me the most about the whole thing is that there seems to be a view among some "Conservatives" (as opposed to "conservatives") that if you question or criticise anything that the current Republican administration does, that is somehow tantamount to treason.
In my view, *that belief system* is tantamount to treason, in this country which was founded on the belief that we needed the freedom to discuss our government.
My political opinions are pretty eclectic, and neither label quite fits. I am much more liberal than the big C Conservatives, but I am also somewhat little C conservative. I disagree with many things I see each of the major national political parties do. And I agree with some of what each does, too. (Although I do have a distinct leftward slant.)
And, as an American citizen, living in the United States of America, I have the right to form my own beliefs.
That's really pretty cool, isn't it? And I think just how truly amazing that is gets lost, when people can't disagree without turning it into an attack.
Posted by Dinah on March 12, 2006, at 12:20:42
In reply to What bothers me the most about it...., posted by Racer on March 11, 2006, at 18:25:30
It's not just a conservative trait. Or even necessarily a political one.
It bothers me when people can't see that the "opposition" contains intelligent well meaning people with something to add to the conversation.
Until both sides hold respect for each other, how can there be constructive dialogue?
Posted by AuntieMel on March 13, 2006, at 18:13:27
In reply to What bothers me the most about it...., posted by Racer on March 11, 2006, at 18:25:30
I used to think of myself as a bit of a conservative.
But what I guess I am is an "old time" conservative - don't spend so much, balance the budget, get the govt out of our personal lives, etc, etc.
But I'm also an LBJ social liberal - help those who need help.
I think a lot of the 'problem' is that the noisy ones are the ones on the fringe of both directions.
Posted by Declan on March 17, 2006, at 1:26:56
In reply to Re: What bothers me the most about it...., posted by AuntieMel on March 13, 2006, at 18:13:27
There's a whole lot of conservatives in the USA who have criticised the administration. You'd know their names better than me, but Clark (sp?) was one. But is the current administration Wilsonian Liberalism by military means, or is that nonsense?? I can't imagine liberal being a term of abuse. I still think in terms of socialism vs liberalism vs conservatism. All very 60s.
Declan
Posted by agent858 on March 18, 2006, at 19:49:29
In reply to What bothers me the most about it...., posted by Racer on March 11, 2006, at 18:25:30
i have trouble with buzzwords like:
conservative
liberal
terrorist
freedom
liberty
justice
etc
etcbecause... what is important is the practical implication. you can have two people who believe in 'justice' but they disagree as to what acts are considered 'just' and what acts are considered 'unjust'. the words... are fairly meaningless because nobody uses them with a clear meaning... and because the implications for action (or for categorisation of acts) is far from clear...
i mean... consider freedom...
we should have freedom from people doing stuff that is illegal.. so in the name of freedom bring out the surveilance equipment...
we should have freedom from people poking their nose into our business.. so in the name of freedom don't you dare bring out the surveilance equipment...
nobodies going to stand up and say 'I am opposed to freedom!!!' that isn't the issue... The issue is in how you cash that out.
same with 'freedom liberty and justice for all' etc etc.
same with who gets to count as a terrorist...
same with the meaning of 'liberal' and 'conservative' etc etc.
those words typically...
among the liberals... to call someone a conservative is probably more intended as an insult than anything else.
and among the conservatives... to call someone a liberal is probably more intended as an insult than anything else.
until people talk about the things that people should (don't think we are allowed to talk about what they should not do)...
until the people talk about the things that the govt should (don't think we are allowed to talk about what they should not do?)...
then it is hard to have meaningful dialogue on politics...
sigh.
but then people are probably opposed to my use of 'should' too...
sigh.
must relativism reign on the politics board?
sigh.
re: rational people can disagree...
i think you will find that that is controversial...
according to bayesian norms of probabilistic reasoning... applying that to people's arguments... applying that to people sharing their background knowledge... i do believe the idea is that people should revise the probability of their initial belief downwards when they are met with opposition... and ultimately... there should be convergence.
as they say on "pulp fiction"
when you get that feeling...
that's pride f*cking with you...
Posted by agent858 on March 18, 2006, at 20:29:33
In reply to Re: What bothers me the most about it...., posted by agent858 on March 18, 2006, at 19:49:29
dammit i had a link to a blog on that...
but can't find it now.
:-(
but the thought is...
convergance should occur.
but people tend to have an over inflated sense of their own accuracy... so they give up discussion too soon and / or tend to write off other people too soon...
though of course contradiction is fatal
:-)
though of course the unconscious was said to be contradictory...
so one does need to be careful with how one describes...
This is the end of the thread.
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