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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jay on September 3, 2005, at 8:59:11
OK...just a little lesson..some comments if I may. Please hear me out..as I feel very strongly about this, and have good knowledge of the topic.
(I don't mean to be patronizing...I just have some expertise in this area. I guess it could be moved to the political board, but feel comfortable with it here, visible)The levees that broke down are part of what is called a country's "infrastructure". This includes also everything from public schools to public water/ sanitary treatment...to maintenance of roads and highways..bridges...to Fire, Police Departments and all other public services and beyond. The bottom line is, and prominent economists have said this for years, is that you *cannot* go cheap on infrastructure. Infrastructure is what you could say the *bones* that bond a civil society. Think of it as an investment the same way you would buy a nice home with proper electrical outfit, plumbing, proper design building, clean and *humane* to live in.
Now, the U.S. Federal government currently in power heavily favours fiscal (spending) restraint. They feel the private sector should look after aspects of infrastructure. If there was one area I would strongly beg the right-wing and Republicans (no, I am not blaming) to change **one**...just ONE strict policy, that would be on infrastructure spending. Short changing spending now creates costly mistakes in the future, and this is evident in Louisiana. They came up with billions upon billions for Iraq, and they should be deeply investing in public infrastructure either as well, or pull out of Iraq and spend the money rebuilding America. This is regardless if you support the Iraq war or not...just a fact.
After World War II, Europe was devastated by the War. America initiated the Marshall Plan, which was, to explain in simple terms, a massive, massive cash transfusion to rebuild European countries, and in particular their infrastructure, devastated by WWII. Schools...Hospitals...Universities...Advanced Water treatment..cities...roads and highways..technology..energy/power transmission. Now, the European countries, as they still have their problems as well, today stand as some of the greatest economic forces in the world. Again. this is not *perfect*...there are still problems with unemployment and social policy, but they are still some major economic powerhouses.
If you simply focus on one issue when election time comes, ask your candidates about infrastructure building, and their views on it. Yes, there is some *red tape*...but you find that in private sector too..like all of the bank user fees..monopoly's, etc. Your tax dollar can be very deeply utilized in making schools with good teachers and high quality services..but it is *going* to cost, through taxes, no way around it. But, think of the excellent education your child gets out of it. The effects of strong public infrastructure can make the U.S. highly advanced, with immaculate high quality services and standards for all.
So, as I stated above...one, just *one* thing I would beg Republicans to do is to tone down their obsession with *tax breaks*, and invest in their country. If not, the *bones* of the country continue to fall apart, you get lower quality, MUCH lower, services including haphazard responses to *major* crisis that impact infrastructure deeply.
<phew!>
Best,
Jay
Posted by Jakeman on September 3, 2005, at 8:59:11
In reply to What IS needed down South.., posted by jay on September 3, 2005, at 0:00:43
Here's an excerpt from an article in today's Washington Post:
By Jim VandeHei and Peter Baker
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, September 2, 2005; Page A16Critics Say Bush Undercut New Orleans Flood Control
President Bush repeatedly requested less money for programs to guard against catastrophic storms in New Orleans than many federal and state officials requested, decisions that are triggering a partisan debate over administration priorities at a time when the budget is strained by the Iraq war.
In recent years, Bush repeatedly sought to slice the Army Corps of Engineers' funding requests to improve the levees holding back Lake Pontchartrain, which Katrina smashed through, flooding New Orleans. In 2005, Bush asked for $3.9 million, a small fraction of the request the corps made in internal administration deliberations. Under pressure from Congress, Bush ultimately agreed to spend $5.7 million. Since coming to office, Bush has essentially frozen spending on the Corps of Engineers, which is responsible for protecting the coastlines, waterways and other areas susceptible to natural disaster, at around $4.7 billion.
Posted by ClearSkies on September 3, 2005, at 8:59:50
In reply to Re: What IS needed down South.. » jay, posted by Jakeman on September 3, 2005, at 1:02:57
I also understand from watching the news last night on PBS that the long-delayed improvements on the levees goes back *many* administrations and covering 30 years, straddling both parties. Also, local government, which had been notoriously corrupt, also providing impediments to any improvements to infrastructure.
ClearSkies, trying to keep educated and at a slow simmer.
Posted by Dinah on September 3, 2005, at 8:59:50
In reply to Re: What IS needed down South.., posted by ClearSkies on September 3, 2005, at 6:07:56
To be absolutely fair, they *did* recently (within the last ten years) SUBSTANTIALLY raise levee levels from where they were previously. They had subsided for years and years before that. The egg rolling difference at Easter was striking. I'd say they at least doubled them.
And they just put in those concrete walls that gave, not too long ago (well within last ten years). Because the nutria were weakening the earth walls around the canal. As it was, I think it was the earth behind the concrete that gave out. Could it be nutria behind the 17th Street Canal breach?
Just imagine what could have happened without those iprovements having been made.
They also *just* put in a pumping station specifically to solve one of the problems. It didn't work at all. I'm not sure why.
I'm very glad that those improvements were made, or we'd have been even worse, I can only imagine. And no doubt there was more that could have been done. I'm not saying there wasn't. Everyone was a bit arrogant in thinking that we were somehow blessed and it wouldn't happen. But a calm reasoned approach to determining the cause of the flooding, the cause of the breaches in the levees will in time reveal where blame should be assigned.
There will be enough blame to go around for everyone, but the fact is that money isn't the solution to everything, and making this political at this point is not what we need.
Even with the truly pitiful response to the aftermath, you can't generalize as to blame. Probably more than anything else, the breakdown in the communication system was what caused problems. The cell phone towers were disabled. I'm guessing that we now know that we need widespread satellite phones among leadership and emergency response teams.
It'd be nice to think that if we just spent enough or did enough, that we could be invulnerable. But it isn't true. As someone was saying the other day, we don't own this earth, we just rent it. When nature decides to mock our feeble efforts, there is a limit to what we can do.
However, the response to the hurricane was horribly lacking, and I think all involved have admitted that. Our leadership appears to have a hard time anticipating likely results. The relatively smooth evacuation this time resulted from a hellish evacuation from Ivan, and improvements made to the system as a result. If it weren't for Ivan, many more people would probably have been left stranded. Even as it was, not everyone could leave. Hopefully, we'll have learned lessons from this one to enable more people to leave next time, sending fleets of fuel trucks to an area expecting a hurricane, for example. Or Greyhound buses to evacuate those who don't have transportation.
Posted by Phil on September 3, 2005, at 8:59:51
In reply to Re: What IS needed down South.. » jay, posted by Jakeman on September 3, 2005, at 1:02:57
Very well said, Jay.
May I add:
FEMA's ignorance and Bush's response after the fact has been dismal.
Funny how Jeb Bush's Florida had what I feel was a quick response to hurricane relief in the recent past while New Orleans' poor were dropping dead and pleading for help before our Federal government finally got off their fat *sses to do something. Bush was spinning that the response was less than it could have been when he was the one that's driving the bus. Hell, the head of FEMA didn't even know about the convention center disaster until Thursday.
This has deepened my seething hatred of this Administration. And, because most of the faces were black, Bush, once again, trotted out Condaleeza Rice when he found his *ss again in another race related bind.
Homeland Security is just a cluster f**k of Federal bureaucracy.
I wanted to post about this last night but hoped that 'sleeping on it' might quell my anger. It didn't work.
The democrats have shown the backbone of a jellyfish when it comes to challenging this president.
I'm sickened and disgusted over how this Administration has screwed up over and over. It's way past time to get pissed off.Phil
Posted by alexandra_k on September 3, 2005, at 9:50:58
In reply to What IS needed down South.., posted by jay on September 3, 2005, at 0:00:43
We have what I believe is a similar issue in NZ politics.
We have national on the one hand promising tax breaks to those in the highest income bracket - to be funded by cuts in social services...
We have labour on the other hand promising tax breaks to low / middle income families - and to retain social services...
What I think about...
Is what kind of society I want to live in.
I know that some people think of taxation as a form of stealing...
But the fact is that unless you are a complete social recluse then your society is a huge part of your environment and therefore your quality of life.
Its not just about what you personally get from where you vote...
Its about what other people in your society have too.
And for an example of that...
Think south africa.
Some people are wealthy
With their guns and dogs and barbed wire fences
While others are not.
And the greater the divide between rich and poor
The more the poor are going to feel ripped off...
And the more the rich are going to be ripped off...I'd gladly pay high taxes to live in a society where:
Everybody has a roof over their heads
Everybody has access to education
Everybody has access to health care (incl specialists)
Everybody has enough money to pay for food and toiletries and clothes and other necessities of modern life.
Where you get that for free.
In vitue of being a human being
With needs.And surely everybody was a little kid once...
And had aims goals things they wanted to achieve in life
Little help
Little intervention
Can go a hell of a long way.I think as individuals we benefit from living in such a society.
And yes, that means higher taxes.
Especially for the highest earners.
So long as you get more for working
I don't understand what the problem is.And I reckon...
That the government shouldn't just be about maintaining law and order.
It should be about promoting the health and welfare of all its citizens.
Social responsibility.Get that sorted within a country
And then...
And then...
I'm sure people would love it if you wanted to send some people over to help them sort out their own country.PS and just in case you are still thinking 'whats in it for me' the more people in a society meet basic standards of living (health education nutrition etc) the less crime you have. (either that or people are less likely to get caught ;-)
Posted by jay on September 3, 2005, at 10:33:58
In reply to Re: What IS needed down South.., posted by Dinah on September 3, 2005, at 7:03:54
> To be absolutely fair, they *did* recently (within the last ten years) SUBSTANTIALLY raise levee levels from where they were previously. They had subsided for years and years before that. The egg rolling difference at Easter was striking. I'd say they at least doubled them.
>
> And they just put in those concrete walls that gave, not too long ago (well within last ten years). Because the nutria were weakening the earth walls around the canal. As it was, I think it was the earth behind the concrete that gave out. Could it be nutria behind the 17th Street Canal breach?
>
> Just imagine what could have happened without those iprovements having been made.
>
> They also *just* put in a pumping station specifically to solve one of the problems. It didn't work at all. I'm not sure why.
>
> I'm very glad that those improvements were made, or we'd have been even worse, I can only imagine. And no doubt there was more that could have been done. I'm not saying there wasn't. Everyone was a bit arrogant in thinking that we were somehow blessed and it wouldn't happen. But a calm reasoned approach to determining the cause of the flooding, the cause of the breaches in the levees will in time reveal where blame should be assigned.
>
> There will be enough blame to go around for everyone, but the fact is that money isn't the solution to everything, and making this political at this point is not what we need.
>
> Even with the truly pitiful response to the aftermath, you can't generalize as to blame. Probably more than anything else, the breakdown in the communication system was what caused problems. The cell phone towers were disabled. I'm guessing that we now know that we need widespread satellite phones among leadership and emergency response teams.
>
> It'd be nice to think that if we just spent enough or did enough, that we could be invulnerable. But it isn't true. As someone was saying the other day, we don't own this earth, we just rent it. When nature decides to mock our feeble efforts, there is a limit to what we can do.
>
> However, the response to the hurricane was horribly lacking, and I think all involved have admitted that. Our leadership appears to have a hard time anticipating likely results. The relatively smooth evacuation this time resulted from a hellish evacuation from Ivan, and improvements made to the system as a result. If it weren't for Ivan, many more people would probably have been left stranded. Even as it was, not everyone could leave. Hopefully, we'll have learned lessons from this one to enable more people to leave next time, sending fleets of fuel trucks to an area expecting a hurricane, for example. Or Greyhound buses to evacuate those who don't have transportation.
>
>Dinah..
I see your point, and should have included that I am not just blaming Republicans, because Democrats as well have been complacent over the years. The thing is, the levees where *supposed* to be built to withstand a category 4-5 hurricane, as was told by scientists time and time again. Plus, companies have been allowed to destory vital wetlands, to build, that could have helped reduce the raveges of flood. Aaron Brown on CNN last night brought the above point to light. Read this article, http://tinyurl.com/e2zh7 from a few years ago which explains so *chillingly* what could, and now did, happen in New Orleans.
My main point is not about response, or the race and class issues (which I think deserve examination on their own), but spending on public infrastructure. I am really speaking non-partisan on this issue. (even though I do have my own partisan beliefs) My point was to exemplify what the Marshall Plan did in Europe after WWII, and how vital and important that spending on *quality* infrastructure is for any country. Here is a non-partisan evaluation on U.S. spending on infrastructure from 2003:
http://tinyurl.com/5rfly Not nice...indeed.This is my main point. I personally don't think many voters understand the relationship between taxes and how they pay for infrastructure. It is pretty much *the* most important priority in a civil society. It is a responsibility of *all* political parties, a crucial point for the survival and existence of a country. The only other choice is massive decay, decline, and horrific tragedies.
I hope this is a bit more clear. Thanks for listening.
Jay
Posted by Phil on September 4, 2005, at 6:53:36
In reply to Re: What IS needed down South.. » Dinah, posted by jay on September 3, 2005, at 10:33:58
I was off topic and very manic and angry yesterday.
If I offended anyone, I apologize.
Forgot my morning meds.
I don't 'hate' this Administration. I'm angy but the word hate is not appropriate and neither was my language.Phil
Posted by Declan on September 4, 2005, at 23:23:23
In reply to Re: Apologize for rant, posted by Phil on September 4, 2005, at 6:53:36
I dunno Phil, it's not very nice, and I'm sure people can feel put down etc, but everyone is so concerned. In The Age (Melbourne, Australia)this morning maybe 20 letters said much as you did just then. It's all way past time etc.
I was gonna say all the best, but anyway
Declan
Posted by Phil on September 5, 2005, at 7:20:15
In reply to Re: Apologize for rant » Phil, posted by Declan on September 4, 2005, at 23:23:23
I was gonna say all the best, but anyway
Declan
________Yeah...it's bleak. Homeland Insecurity.
This is the end of the thread.
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