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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by alexandra_k on September 2, 2005, at 21:03:50
In reply to Re: forgot Canada » jay, posted by ClearSkies on September 2, 2005, at 20:46:02
>Most of the victims were poor and black, largely because they have no cars and so were unable to flee the city before Katrina pounded the US Gulf Coast on Monday. The disaster has highlighted the racial and class divides in a city and a country where the gap between rich and poor is vast.
>The scenes of destruction and mayhem resembled a major Third World refugee crisis, angering politicians and local residents who said the lack of aid was unacceptable in the world's richest country.
>Civil right leader Jesse Jackson, speaking in Baton Rouge, said the government had been "grossly insensitive" to the needs of New Orleans' poor.
Its not about how much other countries care about the particular people.
Of course they care about them.
And just because a country didn't send anything...
Doesn't mean that they don't care.
Its just a matter of the US governments priorities.
And personally...
I hope lessons will be learned from this.
It is such a shameful tradgedy.
Posted by Phillipa on September 2, 2005, at 21:46:55
In reply to Re: forgot Canada, posted by alexandra_k on September 2, 2005, at 21:03:50
Um, I never get into politics but a problem I have is that the American people didn't neccesarily vote Bush in. It is the electorial college that decides the president it's really not the voice of the people. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 3, 2005, at 5:39:42
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » crazy teresa, posted by alexandra_k on September 2, 2005, at 5:40:15
> standing there with a hand out to be filled.
>
> crazy t> wake up.
>
> alexandra_kPlease don't post anything that could lead to others feeling accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by ClearSkies on September 3, 2005, at 5:58:25
In reply to Re: forgot Canada, posted by Phillipa on September 2, 2005, at 21:46:55
> Um, I never get into politics but a problem I have is that the American people didn't neccesarily vote Bush in. It is the electorial college that decides the president it's really not the voice of the people. Fondly, Phillipa
I asked my husband (since I am a legal resident alien) whether the party in power in the US could hold a vote of non-confidence in their party leader, as they can do in Canada. Then the ruling party can select another president (instead of the next of line in the chain of command stepping up). That would be just as bad in my book!
No such luck.
Wouldn't that be a breath of fresh air??
Maybe we can ask Canada to take over our government functions while we're in this current crisis and see if it works any better!!
disclaimer: please, don't tell me to go back where I came from. I pay taxes and don't claim unemployment or any benefits.
ClearSkies
Posted by Nickengland on September 3, 2005, at 7:30:51
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by alexandra_k on September 2, 2005, at 16:03:20
Hi Alexandra,
I understand what you're saying...
I think off the top off my head there are 57 countries in Africa, some being poorer than others. Daily life out there in some of those countries throughout the year, given just an average day and anytime of the year, so you could consider this normal life for them ~ someone dies every 20 seconds of starvation.
The figures of that are absolutely massive. Especially if you look at one population of one of those 57 African countries which is about 144 million people. (thats well over double of the population of the UK) (and about 36 times more people than New Zealand!) Basically it gives you an idea of the scale upon how many people are dieing out in Africa daily.
By the time you finish reading this no doubtly some people in Africa would have died of starvation...
We also know that those countries in Africa, where there is no water, full of disease, no food, no doctors, and the biggest AIDS crisis in the world, are amongst the poorest countries world. They also have corrupt leaders in some of those countries, which in some respects can be considered as wicked a Saddam Hussien.
Speaking of Suddam Hussien, there is one thing those poor African countries do not have in common with the Middle East and that is Oil which does equate to the huge $ as Saudi Arabia is a pretty wealthy nation because of its oil.
You have to ask the question, would Bush have more of an interest in those poor African countries if there was oil there? vs his attention if there wasn't any in the middle east.
Anyway, so Africa puts up with what is truely shocking, on a daily basis but this is considered normal and they are the poorest people in the world, who when they go shopping for food, it might consist of waiting in a line for 10 hours to get bag of rice for their child, who if there is not enough food in the most extream circumstances, may die that day. But again, this could be considered normal-day-to-day living in one of those African countries.
On a similar level, of human suffering brought by this hurricane to those affected ~ the main difference here, is that it has not happened in one of the poorest contries in the world, it has happened in the worlds richest most powerful country of all.
You could ask a question of how much $ has the Iraq war cost the Americans to date, and so what would that figure be compared to how much it will take to repair the damage of this hurricane to the people and city and further more what is more important, from the cost of Mr Bush's money bank. Many questions and comparisons could be put forward.
Apparently if the Iraq war lasts five more years it will cost America nearly 1.4 Trillion dollars. (I just googled that out of curosity)
The human disaster of people losing their lives is the same whether it be in Africa or in America and people feel sorrow equally for those affected. The difference is the money available to rebuild the disaster. America is fortunate that it can afford to repair such a disaster, I think it can, if it can spend all that money in Iraq.
In the mean time of course people will donate from around the world to the people affected by this hurricane.
I did not know whether to write this post, as I don't want to come aross like i'm putting Americans down, with comparing what goes on in Africa to what has happened in New Orleans, but I thought and hope I have worded it okay.
I predict that America is fortunate enough to have enough money to be able to repair, over time, what has happened from this hurricane. Unfortnately what has been going on in Africa continues to rise and has been going on for many years.
Its sad that the world cannot pull together as whole, by that I mean the UK for example isnt a poor country and many of the other european countries are not. If they worked together with other parts of the world with the same force that others will be to get people back their luxuries from this hurricane, then Africa would not live in the state it does ~ unfortnately it has never had those luxuries to full back on.
At one point the United Kingdom (when it was one) owned 3 quarters of the worlds land surface, incuding some of those African countries. I could ask the question if we could manage to do that all those years back, why can't we stop the starvation in those African countries. How have some of over the 50 countries in Europe who have hundreds upon hundreds of years of civilised human history, let the African people below them get to the state they are in now?
Many questions, to which In the political world I guess sometimes you have to draw your own answers.
Wow that was a long post!
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Gabbix2 on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:17
In reply to Re: I wondered about foreign aid also, posted by Dominique on August 31, 2005, at 20:26:51
These "looters" are the same people who are on welfare and stealing money from the tax payers by not getting jobs when they can.
What a scary statement. How on earth do you get the idea that the people on welfare are the one's who loot? I'm completely stunned by that remark. Greedy, people out for themselves are hardly isolated to those on welfare, read the paper.
Posted by Shortelise on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:18
In reply to Whoa! Did I cause all this???, posted by TexasChic on September 1, 2005, at 18:46:24
The State Department said offers had come from Belgium, Canada, Russia, Japan, France, Germany, Britain, China, Australia, Jamaica, Honduras, Greece, Venezuela, the Organization of American States, NATO, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Mexico, South Korea, Israel and the United Arab Emirates. That's as of 4 hours ago.
I think you may have no idea how offensive it is to those of us who live elsewhere to hear people say that no one is going to help, as if because we are not in agreement with the politics of a country, we'd ignore the needs of its citizens in the face of catastrophe.
The Canadian province I live in already has Medical doctors there to help. The goverment of Canada has offered to send our equivalent of the National Guard.
France is sending troops, doc and aid. Germany, the same.
The prayers of many are with you.
Posted by TexasChic on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:19
In reply to FOREIGN AID, posted by Shortelise on September 1, 2005, at 20:31:01
At the risk of speaking for other people, I think the talk about not expecting other countries to help is more out of frustration about the actions of our government and how it is viewed by the rest of the world. Alot of us are tired of what we view as hipocracy by our officials, and how it reflects on us. I for one have spoke often about moving to Canada here lately. Unfortunately, its just too cold there for me!
That's just my opinion yall! I hope I haven't made anyone mad by saying it. I know there are alot of people who like Bush too, and I'm certainly not knocking them!
-T
Posted by lynn970 on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:19
In reply to FOREIGN AID, posted by Shortelise on September 1, 2005, at 20:31:01
I think that some people just get aggrivated with US foreign policies. I dont think that anyone purposefully try to offend people from other countrie. I love Canada.
>I think you may have no idea how offensive it >is to those of us who live elsewhere to hear >people say that no one is going to help,
Posted by Nickengland on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:19
In reply to Re: I wondered about foreign aid also, posted by sunny10 on August 31, 2005, at 9:49:29
Hi sunny
>but everyone seems to hate America these days, so I doubt if any other country will offer to help our non-political devastation of the Gulf Coast...
Whos the "everyone"?
Well everyone but me and others too I strongly imagine like those out in America now. I live in England and hate it here, but very much love America ~ it is probably the best country I have been to so far.
I would just like to point out as well, that others have been affected by this awful hurricane too.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4203768.stm
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by sunny10 on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:20
In reply to FOREIGN AID, posted by Shortelise on September 1, 2005, at 20:31:01
Now it's me who has to apologize.
I said what I said out of pessimistic resignation- mostly with my own government.
Sorry- and I am soooooooooooo happy to hear that I was wrong.
So happy that you can't imagine.
Posted by sunny10 on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:20
In reply to Re: FOREIGN AID » Shortelise, posted by sunny10 on September 2, 2005, at 9:34:00
Posted by Nickengland on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:21
In reply to Re: FOREIGN AID » Shortelise, posted by sunny10 on September 2, 2005, at 9:34:00
Hi Sunny
No worries.
I've been following the hurricane news since it happened and words can't explain what must be going through the minds of the people affected by this, the destruction and life lost.
And then theres the people who have lost their homes and not knowing if their loved ones are alive, it is truely shocking to say the least.
What i'm finding disturbing is what has followed with regards to the reports of, rapes, lootings, shootings and carjackings. At a time when people need to come together to help it is very sad to hear that these incidents are occuring.
I've just read a news report where the head of the New Orleans emergency operations described the relief effort as a national disgrace. Even Bush has condemned the initial response to Hurricane Katrina as "not acceptable"
What i'm surprised by is if what already has happened isn't bad enough with the hurricane, now Louisiana's governor said 300 "battle-tested" National Guardsmen were being sent to quell the unrest.
Even quoted that these troops have M-16's locked and loaded ~ with regards to say they know how to kill and will if they have to.
I've quoted statements from the news report I just read and I am truely shocked by it all. The hurricane was bad enough with the destruction. Some might call a hurricane an 'act of god' but what follows with the things i'm now reading, well, that isn't an act of god like a hurricane thats for sure.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4208986.stm
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Nickengland on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:21
In reply to Do you think, posted by Bobby on August 30, 2005, at 18:34:54
Hi Bobby
>that other countries will pledge aid? Think not.
So you think no other countries will pledge aid?
I think time will tell and you maybe surprised.
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Damos on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:22
In reply to Re: I wondered about foreign aid also, posted by sunny10 on August 31, 2005, at 9:49:29
Just heard last night that there's US$10 million in immediate assistance on the way from down under & 20 disaster relief experts too.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 3, 2005, at 9:16:05
In reply to Re: please be civil » crazy teresa » alexandra_k, posted by Dr. Bob on September 3, 2005, at 5:39:42
i do sympathise that it is a stressful time for a lot of people.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 3, 2005, at 9:31:38
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by Nickengland on September 3, 2005, at 7:30:51
Hey Nick. Thanks for some facts. I knew it was bad but I didn't appreciate it was quite that bad...
> They also have corrupt leaders in some of those countries, which in some respects can be considered as wicked a Saddam Hussien.
Yeah. Its one thing sending aid...
Its another thing to make sure the people who need that aid recieve it...
> You have to ask the question, would Bush have more of an interest in those poor African countries if there was oil there? vs his attention if there wasn't any in the middle east.Yeah. Oil is one side to it. Spread of democracy is another...
> But again, this could be considered normal-day-to-day living in one of those African countries.Yeah. Hard to know what is worse... To have that be 'normal' with little prospects for genuine improvement. Or to once have had and then to have it all taken away... I guess it sucks either way.
> Apparently if the Iraq war lasts five more years it will cost America nearly 1.4 Trillion dollars. (I just googled that out of curosity)
>America is fortunate that it can afford to repair such a disaster, I think it can, if it can spend all that money in Iraq.Well... Not sure that follows. Maybe it doesn't have that money BECAUSE it spent all that money in Iraq... 1.4 trillion dollars... How many african communities could be assisted to become self-sufficient on that amount do you think? Or maybe it could have been spent on welfare. Maybe if more people had cars more people would have been able to evacuate. Maybe... Maybe... Its a hard one. But while I can understand people haggling over where to spend aid money I really don't understand people choosing war over aid. What a tragic waste of lives.
If there wasn't any war... There wouldn't have to be any starving people.
A (controversial) alternative is that if we stopped farming animals for food... There wouldn't have to be any starving people (it is more economical and nutritionally efficient to grow soy or vegetables to eat than to grow soy or vegetables to feed the animals to kill the animals to eat...)
> In the mean time of course people will donate from around the world to the people affected by this hurricane.Yes. And not to the africans. But yeah. There is only so much to go around. and given war and all we must choose...
Posted by gromit on September 6, 2005, at 21:48:28
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by alexandra_k on September 2, 2005, at 16:16:26
> imo it should be accepted as a humanitarian gesture.
>
> and NOT seen as something that was owed america or that america was entitled to.Just as with other disasters nobody is "entitled". Were the tsunami victims "entitled" to receive aid? Why are American citizens less worthy of foreign aid?
Rick
Posted by alexandra_k on September 6, 2005, at 22:51:38
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by gromit on September 6, 2005, at 21:48:28
> Why are American citizens less worthy of foreign aid?
because they are so much more worthy of american aid. because america is the richest country in the world and if anybody has a responsibility to american citizens suffering from natural disaster the american government does.
when a country is not in a position to be able to help its citizens... well... then that is a different matter.
Posted by crazy teresa on September 7, 2005, at 12:31:39
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » gromit, posted by alexandra_k on September 6, 2005, at 22:51:38
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 15:38:13
In reply to So IYO, $$$ or lack of = worthiness or not????? (nm) » alexandra_k, posted by crazy teresa on September 7, 2005, at 12:31:39
lets say i have one million dollars...
i squander that money on gambelling...
then something happens
i need an operation
one that costs one million dollarsthere is me
and there is another person
that other person never came close to seeing one million dollarsthere is one million dollars worth of aid
only one person can be savedis one more deserving than another?
why / why not?
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 15:44:32
In reply to So IYO, $$$ or lack of = worthiness or not????? (nm) » alexandra_k, posted by crazy teresa on September 7, 2005, at 12:31:39
actually...
forget it.
i don't think i want to talk about politics with you.
i still feel fairly insulted by what you said before...besides which. we were talking about worthiness of FOREIGN aid. that bit was crucial.
of course americans have an obligation to help american citizens in need.
more so... the government has a moral obligation to look after the welfare of its citizens.
but no, the priority was clearly troops in iraq.
yeah, lets spend our money on war
and as for the poor needing aid...
well who needs eugenics when we have natural disaster???
Posted by gromit on September 7, 2005, at 19:33:33
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » gromit, posted by alexandra_k on September 6, 2005, at 22:51:38
> because they are so much more worthy of american aid. because america is the richest country in the world and if anybody has a responsibility to american citizens suffering from natural disaster the american government does.
I guess we are the "richest" country in the world, we also spend far more on foreign aid than anybody else. The next 3 countries combined still spend less on aid than us. So now you're going to mention a small percentage of gross income right? The next place country, I believe Japan, gives just a few hundreds of a percent more than us. Where are all the people bashing Japan? They aren't being bashed because they don't deserve to be bashed either. BTW, according to the figures I've seen New Zealand is also just a few hundreds of a percent ahead of the US. This is from memory but I think it's fairly accurate, if you doubt it I will try to find the sites again.
I don't expect people to come rushing to our aid, I'm just surprised at the strong negative attitude towards Americans. I guarantee if New Zealand had a disaster like this the US along with other countries would be there for them.
To quote another post, "we are looking at an area the size of Great Britain that has been devastated". If you want to complain about this administration's foreign policy I'll be right there beside you (and domestic policy is no better) but your posts along with some others on this subject almost make me feel guilty to be an American.
Rick
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 19:54:28
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » alexandra_k, posted by gromit on September 7, 2005, at 19:33:33
> I guess we are the "richest" country in the world, we also spend far more on foreign aid than anybody else. The next 3 countries combined still spend less on aid than us. So now you're going to mention a small percentage of gross income right? The next place country, I believe Japan, gives just a few hundreds of a percent more than us. Where are all the people bashing Japan? They aren't being bashed because they don't deserve to be bashed either. BTW, according to the figures I've seen New Zealand is also just a few hundreds of a percent ahead of the US. This is from memory but I think it's fairly accurate, if you doubt it I will try to find the sites again.
don't worry about the stats, they just confuse me ;-)
i don't know that a country (any country) has a moral obligation to provide foreign aid... have been chatting to my officemate about this (i'm no ethicist - but he is).
i do think, however, that a country (any country) has a moral obligation to provide aid for its own citizens.i take back what i said about having more of an obliation to help africans than americans. there are rich people in africa too. corrupt government is the problem...
> I don't expect people to come rushing to our aid,but countries are. as a humanitarian gesture. and i think that is terrific. really. all i'm saying is that they are not morally OBLIGED to come to americas aid, which is to say they should not be morally condemned for doing the wrong thing should they not have come to america's aid.
i think nz owes the usa a fair bit of money...
would be nice if the dollar value of our gift of aid was subtracted from that amount...
but there it is...>I'm just surprised at the strong negative attitude towards Americans. I guarantee if New Zealand had a disaster like this the US along with other countries would be there for them.
i can only speak for myself...
i do not have a strong negative atitude towards americans (some of my best babble friends are american ;-) ). i do, however, have a strong negative attitude towards the current us government. and how they go about running the country.
yes. countries DO come to the aid of other countries. and that is nice.
all i was saying is that no country is MORALLY ENTITLED to foreign aid.
>If you want to complain about this administration's foreign policy I'll be right there beside you (and domestic policy is no better) but your posts along with some others on this subject almost make me feel guilty to be an American.
I'm sorry you feel guilty to be an american. i never intended for you to feel that way in response. i was just trying to do some grumbling over the current govt.though its not called 'government' is it???
:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 20:05:05
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » gromit, posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 19:54:28
ah and this does get confusing...
moral entitlement and obligation etc etc...
strictly at the level of government / the people running the country...
i guess i just take issue with their choosing to spend an awful lot of money on invading another country...
and the result being that they have to accept aid from foreign countries to fulfill their moral obligations to their own citizens.
but i think they see that...
which is why they were initially reluctant to accept foreign aid.
because it does make them look bad.
and a point that someone else said earlier over on social...terrorists attack in america (9/11)
so what does the american govt. decide to do in response???
send most of the troops overseas to go invade another country...
leaving america wide open to attacknot so smart...
not so smart.war is such a horrible waste of money.
nick found some source that if the war continues for 4 years it will have cost america
(and thats your tax money)
1.4 trillion dollars.
at one point when there was a lot of bombing going on...
office mate tells me it cost america
(and thats your tax money)
1 million dollars per day.and there are people in america living in tenements
living on the streets
walking through metal detectors on their way into schoolimagine what 1.4 trillion dollars...
1 million dollars per day could do for the quality of life of american citizens.but of course i'm preaching to the converted ;-)
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