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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by snoozin on March 2, 2005, at 13:56:59
Permit displays of the 10 commandments in courts or other government property? Yes or no?
Posted by AuntieMel on March 2, 2005, at 15:32:28
In reply to Display of 10 Commandments and the Supreme Court, posted by snoozin on March 2, 2005, at 13:56:59
who's version? As it turns out, the case in point has a monument of the Lutherin version of the ten commandments. A version Catholics and others reject.
So - I guess not display, at least as this monument is displayed.
But - as also noted - Moses and the commandments are on a frieze at the Supreme Court building, along with Confucious and Mohammed and many others who had influence on current law. Such a 'historical' display is (in my opinion) not a problem.
Posted by rayww on March 3, 2005, at 9:08:32
In reply to Display of 10 Commandments and the Supreme Court, posted by snoozin on March 2, 2005, at 13:56:59
> Permit displays of the 10 commandments in courts or other government property? Yes or no?
>
>
YES
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22thou+shalt+love%22&search.x=27&search.y=6http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/71/9#9
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22keep+my+commandments%22&search.x=29&search.y=4
Posted by rayww on March 3, 2005, at 9:10:33
In reply to Display of 10 Commandments and the Supreme Court, posted by snoozin on March 2, 2005, at 13:56:59
> Permit displays of the 10 commandments in courts or other government property? Yes or no?
>
>YES, plus all of God's other commandments.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 3, 2005, at 10:18:09
In reply to Re: Display of 10 Commandments and the Supreme Court, posted by rayww on March 3, 2005, at 9:10:33
So you believe that government should support religion? Or more specific, the government should support Christianity?
Where does that leave everyone else?
Posted by AuntieMel on March 3, 2005, at 10:27:52
In reply to God's vote, posted by rayww on March 3, 2005, at 9:08:32
Your first link talks of hating you enemy. Who do you define as your enemy?
And - as a friendly warning - it also speaks of having to believe in a *particular* deity. That leaves out a large part of the population.
And the third link talks of keeping the commandments. I didn't see anyplace where it said you have to display them or force anyone else to keep them.
I would think that keeping commandments is a personal responsibility to each person. If it is forced on the masses there is the issue of taking away free will, which would make keeping the commandments meaningless.
Another aside. The new testimate quotes Jesus as saying something about giving ceasar what is ceasar's. Wouldn't you consider that an order to separate church and state?
Posted by rayww on March 3, 2005, at 15:41:12
In reply to Re: So you believe » rayww, posted by AuntieMel on March 3, 2005, at 10:18:09
> So you believe that government should support religion? Or more specific, the government should support Christianity?
>
> Where does that leave everyone else?What does the ten commandments monument have to do with government supporting Christianity? Allowing religious freedom doesn't mean the government has to subscribe to everyone's religion. The monument is a symbol of law and order. Can you think of a better one?
This is a good topic, but it isn't easy to discuss. I understand why people are offended on both sides of the debate. If we could all try to obey the commandment to love our neighbor this detate would go away.
One might rather ask "who is my neighbor"? My neighbor is the person, group, or country with a neighboring view. The minority group. The nations that view God different than I. My neighbor is anyone with a different view than my own. I can love my neighbor without subscribing to his beliefs. A good political gesture to the Christians among us who believe in obeying the law, would be to place the monument in front of a law building. If that makes other groups feel militant, then maybe they should try to love their neighbor too.
By the way, thank-you for referring to the Old Testament Israelites as Christians. The Mormons once again are the only ones who believe that. As a side note, they believe the premortal Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament and that it was Jesus Christ who's finger carved the commandments in stone for Moses.
If this is true and if Satan is out to destroy all truth, it stands to reason that anyone reading this would feel anger at the mention of it.
Do you believe anger comes from Satan and love comes from God? Dumb question, I know you don't.... No offense intended. But if Satan is hate and anger and we let ourselves feel those emotions, it only stands to reason that we could get sucked into the black hole through our own emotions emoting. Same goes for love. If we let ourselves love our neighbor, that love becomes one with the love emenating from the presence of God, and we get drawn into the oneness with God.
If we display the commandments which remind us to love our neighbor, who knows, maybe some day someone will.
Posted by rayww on March 3, 2005, at 22:48:00
In reply to Re: questions » rayww, posted by AuntieMel on March 3, 2005, at 10:27:52
> Your first link talks of hating your enemy. Who do you define as your enemy? <<No one.
>
<<Verse 43 said, "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy" and then there is this little word "but" in the next verse which cancels out verse 43 and says, But "I" say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"> And - as a friendly warning - it also speaks of having to believe in a *particular* deity. That leaves out a large part of the population.
<<A large part of the population just doesn't understand that God was here first. This part of the population, through no fault of their own, rejected the history of the earth's creation. The Bible has recorded that one of the sons of Adam was the first to reject the laws of God. He lied and murdered his brother to get gain; thus affecting the belief of millions to follow.
>
> And the third link talks of keeping the commandments. I didn't see anyplace where it said you have to display them or force anyone else to keep them.<<<Laws are laws, and they must be en"forced". Each country is entitled to their own. Belief in God cannot be forced, and displaying the ten commandments is in no way forcing anyone to believe them.
>
> I would think that keeping commandments is a personal responsibility to each person. If it is forced on the masses there is the issue of taking away free will, which would make keeping the commandments meaningless.
><<<No one is suggesting force. Free will is central to God's plan. The rock is on display only.
> Another aside. The new testimate quotes Jesus as saying something about giving ceasar what is ceasar's. Wouldn't you consider that an order to separate church and state?
<< We believe in being subject to our governments and leaders, and in obeying, honoring and sustaining the laws of whatever country we live in. I can do that plus believe in my religion "But":If there is ever a real conflict between my religious belief and the law, I would choose religion because "In God we Trust"
I find it ironic that the ten commandment issue and the gay marriage debate have surfaced at the same time.
Computers and Internet have blessed the world - the tsunami, war in Iraq, 911, etc. destroy it.
The earth will be cleansed but it will not be destroyed. Jesus will come and claim his rightful position as head of government. Each time I get ripped off by people, organizatons or government I long to live in a perfect world. Some day it will be, and Satan will be bound, the lamb will lie down with the lion, and a little child can play with them. Cool stuff. You should be interested in this. It's happening right in front of us and a large part of the population will not even recognize the signs.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 4, 2005, at 17:10:30
In reply to Re: So you believe, posted by rayww on March 3, 2005, at 15:41:12
Hold on. I didn't say I believe the Israelites were Christian. You're reading too much into that.
You said they should be posted along with all gods other commandments. And your links didn't just talk of the original 10, but of a commandment to "Listen to the words of Jesus Christ, your Lord" another reference "And he that will not take up his across and bfollow me, and keep my commandments, the same shall not be saved."
So logically when you said all god's commandments should be posted and had links that referred to christianity I put them together and came to the conclusion that you think the government should support christianity.
Of course you didn't get into which version of christianity. That would cause a fight much larger than the one over separation.
I believe anger and love both come from within. And that they can exist together.
But - another question for you. Where is there anything about loving you neighbor in the 10 commandments. Maybe the golden rule would be better displayed.
Posted by Mark H. on March 4, 2005, at 20:47:20
In reply to Display of 10 Commandments and the Supreme Court, posted by snoozin on March 2, 2005, at 13:56:59
I'm all for littering public places with religious motifs, the more the merrier. Most religious art is beautiful (although stone tablets inscribed with the ten commandments are a stretch). As a Buddhist, I accept that Moses and Jesus Christ were great bodhisattvas, perhaps even Buddhas. My conversion to Buddhism doesn't mean that I stopped loving Jesus or that he stopped loving me. I simply turned away from Christian religion and its fundamental principle of exclusion. Buddhists are historically syncretic; we incorporate the local gods as protector deities. Everyone is included. No exceptions.
I think the anti-Christian movement in the United States is embarrassing and misplaced. Too many of us have allowed our disappointment in the church to turn into disdain, which is at best inappropriate and at worst dangerously destructive.
I *want* to know about the faith of my leaders, regardless of what religion they belong to. I would much rather have it out in the open and part of the public debate than have it be part of the hidden agenda of our nation.
But these are all just my opinions -- my feelings won't be hurt if yours are different.
Best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by rayww on March 4, 2005, at 23:29:36
In reply to Re: Display of 10 Commandments and the Supreme Court, posted by Mark H. on March 4, 2005, at 20:47:20
I really like your ideas, some I had never thought of.
Posted by rayww on March 5, 2005, at 9:26:25
In reply to Re: So you believe » rayww, posted by AuntieMel on March 4, 2005, at 17:10:30
The Ten Commandments are eternal gospel principles that are necessary for our exaltation. The Lord revealed them to Moses in ancient times (see Exodus 20:1–17), and He has restated them in latter-day revelations (see D&C 42:18–29; D&C 59:5–13; D&C 63:61–62). The Ten Commandments are a vital part of the gospel. Obedience to these commandments paves the way for obedience to other gospel principles.
The following review of the Ten Commandments includes brief explanations of how they continue to apply in our lives today:
1. “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:3). We should do “all things with an eye single to the glory of God” (D&C 82:19). We should love and serve the Lord with all our heart, might, mind, and strength (see Deuteronomy 6:5; D&C 59:5).
2. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image” (Exodus 20:4). In this commandment, the Lord condemns the worship of idols. Idolatry may take many forms. Some people do not bow before graven images or statues but instead replace the living God with other idols, such as money, material possessions, ideas, or prestige. In their lives, “their treasure is their god”—a god that “shall perish with them” (2 Nephi 9:30).
3. “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain” (Exodus 20:7). For an explanation of this commandment, see “Profanity,” pages 128–29.
4. “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy” (Exodus 20:8). For an explanation of this commandment, see “Sabbath,” pages 145–47.
5. “Honour thy father and thy mother” (Exodus 20:12). This is a commandment that remains binding even when we are grown. We should always find ways to honor our parents.
6. “Thou shalt not kill” (Exodus 20:13). For an explanation of how this commandment applies to those who are required to go to war, see “War,” pages 183–84.
7. “Thou shalt not commit adultery” (Exodus 20:14). In a latter-day revelation, the Lord condemned not only adultery, but “anything like unto it” (D&C 59:6). Fornication, homosexuality, and other sexual sins are violations of the seventh commandment. For additional explanation, see “Chastity,” pages 29–33.
8. “Thou shalt not steal” (Exodus 20:15). Stealing is a form of dishonesty. For an explanation of honesty, see page 84.
9. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). Bearing false witness is another form of dishonesty. For an explanation of honesty, see page 84.
10. “Thou shalt not covet” (Exodus 20:17). Coveting, or envying something that belongs to another, is damaging to the soul. It can consume our thoughts and plague us with constant unhappiness and dissatisfaction. It often leads to other sins and to financial indebtedness.
Although most of the Ten Commandments list things we should not do, they also represent things we should do. The Savior summarized the Ten Commandments in two principles—love for the Lord and love for our fellow men:
“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
“This is the first and great commandment.
“And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” (Matthew 22:37–39).
Additional references: Mosiah 12:33–36; Mosiah 13:11–24
See also Agency; Chastity; Honesty; Obedience; Profanity; Reverence; Sabbath; War; Worship
Posted by rayww on March 5, 2005, at 9:32:16
In reply to Re: So you believe » AuntieMel, posted by rayww on March 5, 2005, at 9:26:25
if you would like to follow the links in the previous quote: (I'm sorry I don't know bob's secret in how to shorten this path)
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$xhitlist_q=ten%20commandments$xhitlist_x=Simple$xhitlist_s=relevance-weight$xhitlist_d=$xhitlist_hc=%5BXML%5D%5Bkwic%2C0%5D$xhitlist_xsl=xhitlist.xsl$xhitlist_vpc=first$xhitlist_sel=title%3Bpath%3Bcontent-type%3Bhome-title%3Bhit-context%3Bfield%3Azr%3Bfield%3ARef
Posted by gromit on March 5, 2005, at 10:10:54
In reply to Re: So you believe » rayww, posted by rayww on March 5, 2005, at 9:32:16
> if you would like to follow the links in the previous quote: (I'm sorry I don't know bob's secret in how to shorten this path)
We can't embed HTML in our posts, I suppose the administrator can do whatever he likes.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2005, at 16:35:38
In reply to Re: Display of 10 Commandments and the Supreme Court, posted by Mark H. on March 4, 2005, at 20:47:20
> A large part of the population just doesn't understand...
>
> rayww> Christian religion and its fundamental principle of exclusion.
>
> Mark H.Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't post anything that could lead them to feel put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Also, I'd like follow-ups regarding faith to be redirected to Psycho-Babble Faith.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Mark H. on March 7, 2005, at 18:58:37
In reply to Re: please be civil » rayww » Mark H., posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2005, at 16:35:38
Sorry for any misunderstanding. Any suggestions for how I could have said it more appropriately?
Mark H.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 8, 2005, at 8:43:46
In reply to Re: Sorry » Dr. Bob, posted by Mark H. on March 7, 2005, at 18:58:37
and the way some denominations preach that their way is the only way.
Hmmmmm. That's closer, but it still may need some work.
and the way *it seems* some denominations preach that their way is the only way.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2005, at 8:56:33
In reply to Re: Sorry » Dr. Bob, posted by Mark H. on March 7, 2005, at 18:58:37
> Sorry for any misunderstanding. Any suggestions for how I could have said it more appropriately?
Thanks, how about just:
> My conversion to Buddhism doesn't mean that I stopped loving Jesus or that he stopped loving me. I simply turned away from Christian religion. Buddhists are historically syncretic; we incorporate the local gods as protector deities. Everyone is included. No exceptions.
Bob
Posted by Mark H. on March 8, 2005, at 10:49:28
In reply to Re: thanks » Mark H., posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2005, at 8:56:33
Posted by JKL on March 26, 2005, at 7:36:05
In reply to Display of 10 Commandments and the Supreme Court, posted by snoozin on March 2, 2005, at 13:56:59
> Permit displays of the 10 commandments in courts or other government property? Yes or no?
>
>Definitely. That's what this country was founded on. It's our roots, our foundation. Forget where your success came from and you're in big trouble.
Posted by rayww on March 27, 2005, at 8:15:49
In reply to Re: Display of 10 Commandments and the Supreme Court, posted by JKL on March 26, 2005, at 7:36:05
> > Permit displays of the 10 commandments in courts or other government property? Yes or no?
> >
> >
>
> Definitely. That's what this country was founded on. It's our roots, our foundation. Forget where your success came from and you're in big trouble.
>
>
\\Big trouble with whom? Natural consequenses that come from knowing God, and then pushing Him aside? I think God will do whatever it takes to capture our attention, but then it is up to us to develop a relationship. It is after we have developed a relationship with God, and then by choice abandon it, that God abandons us. THat's where the trouble comes in.
Is our nation in trouble then? Have we abandoned the God who made this nation rise?
This is the end of the thread.
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