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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 17, 2005, at 14:02:24
To get them to kill another human being?
What would you have to tell them about the 'enemy'? What could you say to motivate one human being to kill another and consider that JUSTIFIED?
I just don't understand.
War is an expression of power.
And enough people buy the 'excuses' to mean that people die.
Not just those who are in the military either.
There is always 'collateral damage'.
What would you have to say to someone to get them to kill another human being?I don't understand.
Posted by AuntieMel on January 17, 2005, at 17:19:04
In reply to What would you have to say to someone, posted by alexandra_k on January 17, 2005, at 14:02:24
Putting aside the folks that just want to kill.....
I would think that the person would have to feel like that other person is a threat. That it is somehow self-defense.
Like it used to be in the US - only fight if attacked first. Although many here in this instance did feel like we were attacked first.
Or it could be because of a deep hatred.
Many, many governments have deflected peoples misery about economy and other things by giving them a common enemy.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 17, 2005, at 19:45:51
In reply to Re: What would you have to say to someone » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on January 17, 2005, at 17:19:04
> Putting aside the folks that just want to kill.....
Yeah. That one is hard.. Unwillingness / Inability to empathise?
> I would think that the person would have to feel like that other person is a threat. That it is somehow self-defense.Yeah. I guess that when they are trying to kill you that kind of makes it self defence. But they are only trying to kill you because you are trying to kill them and round and round we go...
> Like it used to be in the US - only fight if attacked first. Although many here in this instance did feel like we were attacked first.Ya. But who attacked you? It was a SUICIDE bomber. How many INNOCENT people have died in America's 'self defence'? I don't like it that the 'guilty' people get killed in retaliation. But I ESPECIALLY don't approve when INNOCENT people die in retaliation. Ahem, I mean 'self defense'. There is also the point that it is not 'defence' of a country from within. It is a 'pro-active' defence by invasion.
> Or it could be because of a deep hatred.
> Many, many governments have deflected peoples misery about economy and other things by giving them a common enemy.Yes.
Brainwashing.
That is the best I can figure...
And thats not a specific criticism of America.
Hitler did the same by blaming Jews.
It has happened over and over again...
Posted by AuntieMel on January 18, 2005, at 10:59:14
In reply to Re: What would you have to say to someone » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on January 17, 2005, at 19:45:51
I'm assuming that when you use the word "you" that you aren't talking about me personally. I agree with much of what you are saying.
I was firmly behind going to Afghanastan after 911, and I still think it was (and is) rightful self defense.
I was not for invading Iraq. Logic, from the knowledge available at the time, told me that they did have WMD, but I didn't think they were going to use them anytime in the foreseeable future. And - hey - the guy *was* donkey dung - murdering more of his own civilians than the war has so far. It just wasn't an immediate threat.
I also didn't think, rightly it turns out, that we had the manpower and supplies available to do the job. And I thought it would take our attention away from the real dangers in the world. When it was announced that we would be pulling folks from Germany, Japan and Korea I started getting really worried about manpower shortages.
BUT - 911 wasn't *just* "a suicide bomber" Suicide bomber implies one person with a backpack full of explosives taking out a bus or a market or a restaraunt. This was 20 men, hijacking 4 planes, killing not just the passengers but aiming at huge numbers of INNOCENT civilians, killing thousands, wounding thousands more and seriously affecting millions. My daughter has PTSD because of it and it was the beginning of my slide into a dark deep depression that I am just now beginning to come out of.
And why? What did those people do? Those that were crushed by debris? Those that burned to death? Those that jumped out of windows eighty stories high? Those on the planes who went through a terror I can't even begin to imagine?
The answer? They committed the great sin of being Americans. The "Great Satan."
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 18, 2005, at 11:13:24
In reply to What would you have to say to someone, posted by alexandra_k on January 17, 2005, at 14:02:24
If I knew my life were threatened by someone, I would have no problem killing him/her. It is a natural survival instinct.
Posted by AuntieMel on January 18, 2005, at 13:03:49
In reply to Re: What would you have to say to someone, posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 18, 2005, at 11:13:24
I think I probably would, too. But it would upset me so much I don't know if I ever would get over it. So, maybe it would be better if I didn't fight back?
Posted by AuntieMel on January 18, 2005, at 13:06:46
In reply to Re: What would you have to say to someone, posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 18, 2005, at 11:13:24
But another important question is how direct does the threat need to be? On my person? On my way of life? There is no simple answer.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 18, 2005, at 15:49:32
In reply to Re: What would you have to say to someone » Miss Honeychurch, posted by AuntieMel on January 18, 2005, at 13:03:49
I think your adrenaline and basic instinct wouldn't give you the option of NOT fighting back. I think the survival instinct is so basic that it would be automatic. I can certainly understand being traumatized by it after, but at the time, I think instinct takes over.
But the good question is, how near a threat does it have to be? Or how close to me? If someone were aiming a gun at my husband or mother or child (if I had one) I think I would kill the person threatening to kill my loved one.
and, would I do a pre-emptive strike? I have no idea!
Posted by alexandra_k on January 18, 2005, at 16:56:24
In reply to Re: What would you have to say to someone » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on January 18, 2005, at 10:59:14
> I'm assuming that when you use the word "you" that you aren't talking about me personally.
Indeed I am not! (And thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt there). When I was talking about individuals trying to kill each other I wasn't talking about you - I didn't think that you were in the military! And when I said 'you' I meant Americans in general (I used 'you' because you used 'we'). Though I should be more careful about that.
>BUT- 911 wasn't *just* "a suicide bomber" Suicide bomber implies one person with a backpack full of explosives taking out a bus or a market or a restaraunt. This was 20 men, hijacking 4 planes, killing not just the passengers but aiming at huge numbers of INNOCENT civilians, killing thousands, wounding thousands more and seriously affecting millions. My daughter has PTSD because of it and it was the beginning of my slide into a dark deep depression that I am just now beginning to come out of.Ok so 20 SUICIDE bombers. That means the people who did it are dead already - right? So America doesn't need to worry about killing them in self defence. I am sorry about the PTSD and depression and very real psychological effects that were felt because of that terrible situation. Please don't get me wrong. I am not condoning that attack in any way whatsoever. I don't think innocent people should be killed in the name of politics. Whether they be American, Jew, from Iraq or where ever.
> The answer? They committed the great sin of being Americans. The "Great Satan."
Hmm. My understanding (though maybe I am wrong) it was a statement (inappropriate to be sure) about TRADE SANCTIONS. America's ability to cease trade at will and throw a country into absolute despair.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 18, 2005, at 17:00:44
In reply to Re: What would you have to say to someone, posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 18, 2005, at 15:49:32
Yeah ok so if some person is going to kill me and it is a me or them situation and there is NO OTHER WAY - then sure, self defence.
But when American military go into SOMEONE ELSES country with weapons intending on killing people in their military (I suppose the collateral damage is unintentional to be fair) then I would have to say that it is THEM (from that other country) who are defending themselves.
If you break into someone elses house then you are the attacker and them the defender. If you go into someone elses country same thing.
It is pre-emptive.
But the damage WAS done.
It is not 'pre-empting'.
It is RETALIATION.
And round and round it goes...
Posted by alexandra_k on January 18, 2005, at 17:09:18
In reply to Re: What would you have to say to someone, posted by alexandra_k on January 18, 2005, at 17:00:44
And as for the 'sins' of being American
How many (innocent) people die in the collateral damage that occurs because they live in Iraq or where ever?September 11 was a horrible horrible thing.
But such horrible things (in terms of the number of innocent people who die) are CAUSED BY the American military too.September 11 hit the headlines it was a shock.
Many countries have lived with much much worse and they don't make the headlines.It is when it happens at 'home' that it is so very real to us.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 19, 2005, at 12:57:32
In reply to Re: What would you have to say to someone, posted by alexandra_k on January 18, 2005, at 17:00:44
I was just answering your interesting question of what it would take for ME to kill another person. I thought my post had no political overtones. Maybe my question about pre-emptive strike? I wonder what I would do if I knew someone was going to try to kill my husband at 8 pm Friday. Would I kill that person before he got a chance to kill my husband? WHo can say? I have no idea what I would do. It's an interesting predicament.
Had I known this thread was a discussion of U.S. foreign policy I would have stayed out of it. I probably didn't read your question closely enough.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 19, 2005, at 13:12:00
In reply to Re: What would you have to say to someone, posted by alexandra_k on January 18, 2005, at 17:00:44
Alexandra,
Sorry about the tone of my last post. This IS the political page after all! I just thought your question was interestng and didn't realize what page I was on.
Please forgive.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 19, 2005, at 15:24:14
In reply to Re: What would you have to say to someone » alexandra_k, posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 19, 2005, at 12:57:32
> I was just answering your interesting question of what it would take for ME to kill another person. I thought my post had no political overtones. Maybe my question about pre-emptive strike? I wonder what I would do if I knew someone was going to try to kill my husband at 8 pm Friday. Would I kill that person before he got a chance to kill my husband? WHo can say? I have no idea what I would do. It's an interesting predicament.
Oh, thats ok.
Would you like to talk about that instead?
I don't mind if we do that :-)I would like to think that in that case there would be other options. Going to the police or whatever.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 19, 2005, at 15:26:11
In reply to Re: What would you have to say to someone » alexandra_k, posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 19, 2005, at 13:12:00
Hey it didn't really start off as a discussion of US foreign policy.
I was envisaging soldiers in the front line meeting soldiers in the opposing front line. Doesn't matter whose 'side' each side is on.
I was just thinking what on earth could induce them to go there and try to kill people
Posted by AuntieMel on January 20, 2005, at 10:22:04
In reply to What would you have to say to someone, posted by alexandra_k on January 17, 2005, at 14:02:24
I personally hate killing (though I'm pro-choice, but that is another debate).
But I do believe that there is one case that justifies it. That case being to stop even more killing. If wiping out a few thousand prevents the murder of hundreds of thousands, then I would say it is justified.
I think we were right to help in Bosnia (though later than I wanted)
I think we were right to help in Kosovo.
I think we were right in Somalia and shouldn't have run out on them.
And on a level, though it isn't being sold that way, I think there is value in toppling Sadam. He murdered many thousands of his own people, and there was no indication he would stop.
Unfortunately. I also don't believe our leaders (not just the current crop) are going into places for the right reasons. We probably haven't had a President with that type of morals since Jimmy Carter.
Posted by AuntieMel on January 20, 2005, at 10:34:04
In reply to Re: What would you have to say to someone » alexandra_k, posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 19, 2005, at 12:57:32
I believe the bits about US foreign were an aside to the real topic.
The question "what would you have to say to someone" applies on a personal level. And we all take our feelings about what it would take on a personal level and project that onto national and world levels.
I think too many people (and most politicians) think of war type fighting in an abstract way, forgetting that there are peoples *kids* over there.
They then may not truly consider if going into this conflict is the morally right thing to do.
I firmly believed protecting the folks of Kosovo was the right thing to do. Even when it was my own son heading there.
So - let's enjoy a conversation "what do you say" and "when is it right." No rancor.
Unless, of course, someone misuses an apostrophe.
chuckle.
This is the end of the thread.
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