![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 42. Go back in thread:
Posted by gardenergirl on January 5, 2005, at 1:06:12
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith?, posted by ayrity on January 5, 2005, at 0:46:34
Thanks for posting answers to Angel Girl's questions. I had similar questions about the Jewish (and other) faiths, as I am fairly religion-naive.
So thanks for taking the time to provide some enlightenment! :)
gg
Posted by ayrity on January 5, 2005, at 12:36:47
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith? Thanks, very informative » ayrity, posted by gardenergirl on January 5, 2005, at 1:06:12
> Thanks for posting answers to Angel Girl's questions. I had similar questions about the Jewish (and other) faiths, as I am fairly religion-naive.
>
> So thanks for taking the time to provide some enlightenment! :)
>
> gg
My pleasure. You might also want to check out BeliefNet, which is an excellent website for information on a wide variety of religious beliefs. It's a fascinating site.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 6, 2005, at 0:16:00
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith? Thanks, very informative, posted by ayrity on January 5, 2005, at 12:36:47
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 6, 2005, at 15:44:29
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith?, posted by ayrity on January 5, 2005, at 0:46:34
ayrity,
You wrote,[...antisemitic postings...]. Could you identify , let's say 3posts that you would designate as fitting into that catagory?
If you could, then we could possibly have a discussion related to them.
Best regards,
Lou
Posted by ayrity on January 6, 2005, at 23:51:14
In reply to Lou's response to ayrity's post-asposigs » ayrity, posted by Lou Pilder on January 6, 2005, at 15:44:29
> ayrity,
> You wrote,[...antisemitic postings...]. Could you identify , let's say 3posts that you would designate as fitting into that catagory?
> If you could, then we could possibly have a discussion related to them.
> Best regards,
> LouSorry, Lou. I think that will be counterproductive, and, frankly, I've given up. I made my objections known a few times when I found especially egregious posts, and no action was taken then; I don't expect any response now.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 6, 2005, at 23:55:26
In reply to Lou's response to ayrity's post-asposigs » ayrity, posted by Lou Pilder on January 6, 2005, at 15:44:29
> You wrote,[...antisemitic postings...]. Could you identify , let's say 3posts that you would designate as fitting into that catagory?
> If you could, then we could possibly have a discussion related to them.I'd like to redirect any discussions like that to Psycho-Babble Administration. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041218/msgs/438834.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by AuntieMel on January 7, 2005, at 9:20:00
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith? Thanks, very informative » ayrity, posted by gardenergirl on January 5, 2005, at 1:06:12
Most of the currently used Christian bibles have numerous translation errors in the Old Testament. I'm not saying that it was intentional, though it is possible a certain subconscious bias might have crept through.
Likely it was more like playing "telephone." The first translation from Hebrew was to Greek, which later went to English, and then to the King James version.
It's a quite interesting exercise to compare one of the modern Bibles to a direct Hebrew - English translation.
Posted by MKB on January 9, 2005, at 23:09:56
In reply to Re: translations » gardenergirl, posted by AuntieMel on January 7, 2005, at 9:20:00
> Most of the currently used Christian bibles have numerous translation errors in the Old Testament.
You state this as a fact and I believe you are incorrect. Which versions are you talking about? What are the translation errors? Contemporary translations are done with teams of highly educated scholars who are well-versed in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. They are very careful to use the best and oldest available documents to construct an accurate translation.
>
> Likely it was more like playing "telephone." The first translation from Hebrew was to Greek, which later went to English, and then to the King James version.Perhaps you are speaking of the Septuagint, which was the Old Testament translated into Greek. This may have been used in the original King James version, but modern translations are not based solely on this. Nor are they based solely on the King James version, which was an excellent translation considering it was in 1611.
In most modern translations, you will find a preface that explains how the translation was made. Here is an excerpt from the preface of the New King James Version:
"In addition to referring to a variety of ancient versions of the Hebrew Scriptures, the New King James Version draws on the resources of relevant manuscripts from the Dead Sea caves. In the few places where the Hebrew was so obscure that the 1611 King James Version was compelled to follow one of the versions, but where information is now available to resolve the problems, the New King James Version follows the Hebrew text. Significant variations are recorded in the center reference column."Regarding the popular New International Version, the preface states the following: "For the Old Testament the standard Hebrew text, the Masoretic text as published in the latest editions of the Biblia Hebraica, was used throughout. The Dead Scrolls contain material bearing on an earlier stage of the Hebrew text. They were consulted, as were the Samaritan Pentateuch and the ancient tribal traditions relating to textual changes."
There are other modern translations that are equally sound in scholarship. However, there is a difference between a translation and a paraphrase version. It is important for the Bible student to know the difference.
> It's a quite interesting exercise to compare one of the modern Bibles to a direct Hebrew - English translation.
Christian ministers compare Hebrew and English all the time. A great many pastors are trained in Biblical languages and consult the Hebrew scriptures as they prepare their sermons. I would truly appreciate it if you would present examples of the differences you perceive to be there.
Posted by MKB on January 9, 2005, at 23:27:22
In reply to The Jewish Faith?, posted by Angel Girl on January 2, 2005, at 12:47:03
One of the main things you need to know about Judaism is that they use rabbinic writings contained in the Talmud, in addition to the Old Testament. The Talmud is not part of the Bible.
Posted by MKB on January 9, 2005, at 23:36:48
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith?, posted by ayrity on January 5, 2005, at 0:46:34
Thanks so much for your answers. I am sorry you feel there is antisemitism on this board. I know how you feel, as I feel there are many antiChristian comments. As a Christian, I would like you to know that we love the Jewish people. It is in the United States of America and because of Christians that Jews have enjoyed more freedom of worship than they have ever known anywhere else. If it were not for Christians, I doubt the U.S. would be continually supporting Israel. Christians know that the Bible says all nations will come against Israel and that the Bible warns in Zechariah, "He who touches you (Israel) touches the apple of his eye." It is the belief of most Christians that it is because of U.S. support for Israel that God continues to bless this country. Our theological beliefs may differ, but true antisemitism is unacceptable.
Posted by Angel Girl on January 10, 2005, at 3:58:34
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith? » Angel Girl, posted by MKB on January 9, 2005, at 23:27:22
>
> One of the main things you need to know about Judaism is that they use rabbinic writings contained in the Talmud, in addition to the Old Testament. The Talmud is not part of the Bible.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What are "rabbinic writings contained in the Talmud"? I apologize for my ignorance in the subject. I know extremely little of the Jewish faith.AG
Posted by Angel Girl on January 10, 2005, at 4:29:49
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith?, posted by ayrity on January 5, 2005, at 0:46:34
ayrity
Thank you for replying my questions. Now, your replies bring forth more questions. I would like to repeat, that I am not here to debate Christianity vs the Jewish faith, but to attempt to understand the difference.
1. You say that you believe in Heaven but not Hell. Is it the Jewish belief that all Jews will go to Heaven?
2. You say that you use basically the same Old Testament, but do not include "apocryphal texts". Can you please explain what *apocryphal texts* means? (Something tells me I'm going to be very embarrassed to hear the answer to this question).
3. With your Bible being in Hebrew, and I think I understand your sermons to be in Hebrew as well, does this mean that all Jewish people speak and understand the Hebrew language? I'm referring partially about Jewish families that have settled here and have children born in this country. Are they taught Hebrew? And what about those who convert from another faith to that of the Jewish faith? Are they taught Hebrew? If not, I wonder how they are to get much from the religious ceremony or the Bible used?
4. If apocryphal texts can be considered Jewish texts, why would they not be considered part of the Jewish canon?
5. Why is Jesus Christ not believed to be the Messiah?
6. If you do not believe in evil and that Satan does not act outside the will of God, then how do you account for the bad things that happen ie: murders, etc. Are they the will of God? What purpose could they serve?
I hope that you or someone else of knowledge is willing to reply these questions.
Thanks once again for your very informative answers.
AG
Posted by MKB on January 10, 2005, at 4:49:33
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith? » MKB, posted by Angel Girl on January 10, 2005, at 3:58:34
Rabbinic means they were written by rabbis. These writings were like commentaries on how Jews should live.
I'll try to answer in general terms off the top of my head, though I know more detail is required: The Jewish people of Israel/Judah were attacked and carried into captivity several times and their temple was destroyed. Without their temple and/or living in a foreign land, it was impossible to carry out the animal sacrifices required by Moses's Law. Much of the Old Testament is devoted to the prophets warning the Jews that this would happen. The rabbis wrote in an attempt to keep the Jewish faith alive despite not having a Temple. This happened over a period of several hundred years before and after Christ. It was during this time that synagogues developed, where Jewish people would gather to worship and study.
There were several temples beginning with Solomon's Temple and ending with Herod's Temple, all on basically the same spot, the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Each temple was destroyed by enemies of the Jewish people, ending with Herod's Temple, which was destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. The fact that the Muslims later built a mosque on that same spot is one of the the main reasons for the Jewish-Muslim conflict. This is a very general answer, which I hope will serve as a lauching pad for further study.
Posted by MKB on January 10, 2005, at 4:57:28
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith? anyone or » ayrity, posted by Angel Girl on January 10, 2005, at 4:29:49
The apocryphal texts referred to are Jewish writings that Roman Catholics include in their Bible, but which are not considered scripture by either Jews or Protestants. They can be useful and interesting, but they were not accepted by the Jews as authoritative. Protestants accept the same books that the Jews do in the Old Testament canon.
Posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 1:06:27
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith? » Angel Girl, posted by MKB on January 10, 2005, at 4:49:33
Thank you for your answers. I am embarrassed at what little I know of The Bible. <hangs head in shame>
So, why did the Jewish people have so many enemies? What had they done, if anything, to cause this? What country was this in?
If the Jewish temples were being destroyed, why not the Muslim mosques?
I can see why the Jews would be angry that the Muslim mosques were not also destroyed.
I guess you can see how very little I know. This is very much like a history lesson in addition to learning about different faiths.
AG
> Rabbinic means they were written by rabbis. These writings were like commentaries on how Jews should live.
>
> I'll try to answer in general terms off the top of my head, though I know more detail is required: The Jewish people of Israel/Judah were attacked and carried into captivity several times and their temple was destroyed. Without their temple and/or living in a foreign land, it was impossible to carry out the animal sacrifices required by Moses's Law. Much of the Old Testament is devoted to the prophets warning the Jews that this would happen. The rabbis wrote in an attempt to keep the Jewish faith alive despite not having a Temple. This happened over a period of several hundred years before and after Christ. It was during this time that synagogues developed, where Jewish people would gather to worship and study.
>
> There were several temples beginning with Solomon's Temple and ending with Herod's Temple, all on basically the same spot, the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Each temple was destroyed by enemies of the Jewish people, ending with Herod's Temple, which was destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. The fact that the Muslims later built a mosque on that same spot is one of the the main reasons for the Jewish-Muslim conflict. This is a very general answer, which I hope will serve as a lauching pad for further study.
Posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 1:12:11
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith? anyone or » Angel Girl, posted by MKB on January 10, 2005, at 4:57:28
Thank you again for your reply.
Why would the Roman Catholics accept the apocryphal texts into canon when both the Jews and Protesants thought them to not be authoritive? And why were they not considered authoritive?
BTW, how do you know all this stuff?
AG
> The apocryphal texts referred to are Jewish writings that Roman Catholics include in their Bible, but which are not considered scripture by either Jews or Protestants. They can be useful and interesting, but they were not accepted by the Jews as authoritative. Protestants accept the same books that the Jews do in the Old Testament canon.
Posted by ayrity on January 11, 2005, at 11:29:54
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith? anyone or » ayrity, posted by Angel Girl on January 10, 2005, at 4:29:49
Well, as I said, I'm highly unqualified to answer your questions, but I'll do the best I can. (See below):
> 1. You say that you believe in Heaven but not Hell. Is it the Jewish belief that all Jews will go to Heaven?
Again, Judaism is vague and not dogmatic about the afterlife, preferring to focus on the living rather than the dead. In general, it is the Jewish belief that EVERYONE who is repentent and has tried to live a just life has a share in the afterlife, not just Jews. This is where Judaism and Christianity difer. You do not have to be Jewish to achieve "salvation" or a share in the world to come. Please see this website for an excellent explanation; http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm
> 2. You say that you use basically the same Old Testament, but do not include "apocryphal texts". Can you please explain what *apocryphal texts* means? (Something tells me I'm going to be very embarrassed to hear the answer to this question).The apocrypha would include books such as Macabees, Tobit, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiaticus (not to be confused with Ecclesiastes), and many others. They were either considered to overlap with other texts or deemed not worthy for various reasons to be included in the Tanakh (Jewish Bible). However, many are still used (Macabees, for example, which gives us the Chanukah story); they are just not deemed to be on the same level as other texts.
> 3. With your Bible being in Hebrew, and I think I understand your sermons to be in Hebrew as well, does this mean that all Jewish people speak and understand the Hebrew language? I'm referring partially about Jewish families that have settled here and have children born in this country. Are they taught Hebrew? And what about those who convert from another faith to that of the Jewish faith? Are they taught Hebrew? If not, I wonder how they are to get much from the religious ceremony or the Bible used?
Sermons, even for the Orthdox, are not usually in Hebrew but in the vernacular language (English, etc.). This is for the benefit of those who do not understand enough Hebrew to follow. The prayer service in Conservative and Orthodox congregations is conducted in Hebrew; it would be dificult for someone unfamilar with Hebrew or the prayers to follow along, although many prayerbooks have English translations and the Rabbi usually announces where everyone is in the reading from time to time for those having trouble keeping up. Reform services are generally in English with more or less Hebrew depending on the location. Most Jews learn at least some degree of Hebrew as part of their religious education; this involves learning to read the prayer book and a basic understanding of the important prayers in Hebrew. However, not all Jews (including myself) are conversant in Hebrew. As far as conversion- I think that the person converting generally would be required to have a basic knowledge of Hebrew (alphabet, basic prayers) but not necessarily be able to speak the language.
> 4. If apocryphal texts can be considered Jewish texts, why would they not be considered part of the Jewish canon?
See my comments above. Some are still studied for their insights and historical content, but are considered lessor texts for many reasons.
> 5. Why is Jesus Christ not believed to be the Messiah?
For the very fact that everthing that is supposed to have happened when the Messiah comes did not happen- Jews are still scattered around the world, the Temple has not been rebuilt, the dead have not been resurrected, the world is not at peace, etc. All of these things are supposed to happen when the Messiah comes, and have not yet occurred, therefore Jesus could not have been the Messiah according to Jewish belief.
Again, see http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm for an excellent discussion.
> 6. If you do not believe in evil and that Satan does not act outside the will of God, then how do you account for the bad things that happen ie: murders, etc. Are they the will of God? What purpose could they serve?Judaism doesn't offer simple explanations about good and evil. Jews believe that G-d is all powerful and all encompassing- the notion of bad things happening outside the will of G-d is simply not compatible with Jewish thought. And, the notion of a Satan who is the embodiment of evil and acts indepently from G-d is not compatible with Judaism's strict definition of monotheism. Basically, we can't understand G-d's reasons for everything, though we can question him (a cherished and basic Jewish notion). We can't always understand why bad things happen- it is the will of G-d for reasons we cannot always fathom.
> Thanks once again for your very informative answers.
My pleasure. Check out the website I mentioned above, http://www.jewfaq.org/index.htm. Many excellent answers to be found there.
Posted by ayrity on January 11, 2005, at 11:42:53
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith? » MKB, posted by Angel Girl on January 10, 2005, at 3:58:34
> >
> > One of the main things you need to know about Judaism is that they use rabbinic writings contained in the Talmud, in addition to the Old Testament. The Talmud is not part of the Bible.-----------------------------------------------> What are "rabbinic writings contained in the Talmud"? I apologize for my ignorance in the subject. I know extremely little of the Jewish faith.
> AGMKB's description of the Talmud is limited and reflects the usual Christian misunderstandings of what the Talmud is. The Talmud is a vast compendium of knowledge and commentary, not just a legalistic document. Jews believe that the Oral Tradition contained in the Talmud was handed down at the same time as the Written Torah (or 5 books of Moses). It was transmitted from generation to generation until compiled and written down in the Mishnah. Sages then added their own commentary and interpretations (Gemarah). The Talmud consists of all of these parts. See http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm#Talmud for a nice explanation.
Posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 13:22:55
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith? anyone or, posted by ayrity on January 11, 2005, at 11:29:54
ayrity
Thank you for your patience and time in replying my questions. I will look up the references that you have given me.
AG
Posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 13:24:53
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith?, posted by ayrity on January 11, 2005, at 11:42:53
ayrity
Thank you for lending further clarification to my question.
AG
> > >
> > > One of the main things you need to know about Judaism is that they use rabbinic writings contained in the Talmud, in addition to the Old Testament. The Talmud is not part of the Bible.-----------------------------------------------> What are "rabbinic writings contained in the Talmud"? I apologize for my ignorance in the subject. I know extremely little of the Jewish faith.
> > AG
>
> MKB's description of the Talmud is limited and reflects the usual Christian misunderstandings of what the Talmud is. The Talmud is a vast compendium of knowledge and commentary, not just a legalistic document. Jews believe that the Oral Tradition contained in the Talmud was handed down at the same time as the Written Torah (or 5 books of Moses). It was transmitted from generation to generation until compiled and written down in the Mishnah. Sages then added their own commentary and interpretations (Gemarah). The Talmud consists of all of these parts. See http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm#Talmud for a nice explanation.
>
>
Posted by judy1 on January 11, 2005, at 17:47:34
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith?, posted by ayrity on January 11, 2005, at 11:42:53
what an awesome site- thank you so much for posting it. actually I was interested in reading about Kabbala, since that has become somewhat 'trendy' in my neck of the woods (so. cal). obviously, the followers I know couldn't possibly understand the intricacies of this since they haven't been studying for the decades (the site said one should be 40 years old to start studying) that seem to be necessary.
take care, judy
Posted by ayrity on January 11, 2005, at 22:24:48
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith? » ayrity, posted by judy1 on January 11, 2005, at 17:47:34
> what an awesome site- thank you so much for posting it. actually I was interested in reading about Kabbala, since that has become somewhat 'trendy' in my neck of the woods (so. cal). obviously, the followers I know couldn't possibly understand the intricacies of this since they haven't been studying for the decades (the site said one should be 40 years old to start studying) that seem to be necessary.
> take care, judyYou're welcome. It is nice to have a positive thread about Judaism and answer genuine questions and curiosity in a supportive environment.
The current Kabbala fad has no resemblence to the actual Kabbala of Judaism, as you read on the website. It really is New Age philosophy repackaged. Of course, it might have value and meaning to those who pariticpate in it, but it is not to be confused with the Kabbala of traditional Judaism.
Posted by judy1 on January 12, 2005, at 12:23:49
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith?, posted by ayrity on January 11, 2005, at 22:24:48
since you've been so gracious in your answers, I would like to take advantage :-) I've met Jesuits and rabbis who are true students of faith, and admire their commitment. You mentioned that to ask questions is a hallmark of the Jewish faith- is that akin to a crisis of faith (you can tell I have a Catholic background)? or is that more in the line of broadening one's knowledge? And is the study of the Talmud the most important aspect of understanding (that may have been on the site, sorry if I missed it)? and if it is, I imagine one must have a complete knowledge of Hebrew- would rabbis of all branches of Judaism (orthodox, conservative and reform) have this knowledge?
thanks again for your patience- judy
Posted by ayrity on January 12, 2005, at 23:21:33
In reply to another question » ayrity, posted by judy1 on January 12, 2005, at 12:23:49
I'll break up your post and answer your questions below as best I can. Remember, I'm not a Jewish scholar and I do not have any advanced knowledge in these matters. I come from a Conservative Jewish background and typical after-school Hebrew school type education.
>You mentioned that to ask questions is a hallmark of the Jewish faith- is that akin to a crisis of faith (you can tell I have a Catholic background)? or is that more in the line of broadening one's knowledge?
Well it can be either, but the important thing is that questioning G-d does not necessarily mean one has lost faith. It means that one is trying to understand G-d better, and, in a way, hold G-d accountable to his obligations (covenant if you wiil) to mankind.
>And is the study of the Talmud the most important aspect of understanding (that may have been on the site, sorry if I missed it)?Depends who you ask. Many authorities state that the Torah (the 5 Books of Moses) is the most important thing to study and all else is secondary. However, a good deal of emphasis and time is placed on learning Talmud, which is often necessary to amplify one's knowledge of the Torah- I think this varies from group to group (ie Hasidim vs Modern Orthodox, vs Consevative, etc.)
>....and if it is, I imagine one must have a complete knowledge of Hebrew- would rabbis of all branches of Judaism (orthodox, conservative and reform) have this knowledge?
The Talmud is available in English translation. However, much analysis of the Torah relies on the Hebrew language itself- its nuances, its numerical associations, etc. So any deep study of the Talmud or Torah would need to be in Hebrew, but for the average person English might be sufficient (an Orthodox Jew would likely disagree about that). Orthodox and Conservative Rabbis are fluent in Hebrew from my experience. I don't know about Reform Rabbis but I think they generally are, too.
> thanks again for your patience- judy
Sure thing! :-)
Posted by Wronged on January 13, 2005, at 5:45:39
In reply to Re: The Jewish Faith?, posted by ayrity on January 11, 2005, at 11:42:53
I'm sure MKB knows that her knowledge of the Talmud is limited. Regardless of your belief that the Oral Law came down from Moses, it can still be argued that the Talmud is NOT in the Old Testament and is not the same thing. It's a matter of perspective, not fact.
MKB was trying to make the point that Jesus Christ criticized those Pharisees and rabbis who elevated tradition and oral law to an equivalence with Moses's Law. It's hard to see how someone who claims to be a Christian could ignore this part of the teachings of Jesus. But many people pick and choose what to believe, right? For example, the Samaritan Jews do not honor any books outside the "Old Testament." They do not accept the Talmud or any of the other rabbinical writings.
Your explanations, nevertheless, are appreciated and welcomed. Is it possible Jews also have many misconceptions about Christianity? Perhaps more freedom to dialogue on these boards would go far to clearing these things up and actually educating people. But it does take time to explain things, and most people really don't care enough to bother. Some are more interested in getting people blocked.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Faith | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.