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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by psychobot5000 on October 11, 2006, at 21:48:25
After recently starting a fish-oil supplement diet, and having positive results with focus/concentration, I have been hampered by lack of sleep and -possibly-, lowered mood.
So I switched to a 'pure DHA' variety of fish oil, in hopes that it would prevent the insomnia (which I thought might be EPA--induced, considering its apparent dopaminergic actions. At first, I felt more relaxed (which I think was placebo, but also might have been the immediate NA-reducing effect of DHA), and that night I slept better, but even before turning in for the night, my mood seemed to be lowering. Today it is definitely worse.
I've read of at least one other babbler who had lowered mood on DHA, so I thought I'd ask, anyone else had problems with fish oil? Worsening depression maybe?
Posted by Jlx on October 12, 2006, at 19:39:07
In reply to Increased depression from DHA?, posted by psychobot5000 on October 11, 2006, at 21:48:25
> After recently starting a fish-oil supplement diet, and having positive results with focus/concentration, I have been hampered by lack of sleep and -possibly-, lowered mood.
>
> So I switched to a 'pure DHA' variety of fish oil, in hopes that it would prevent the insomnia (which I thought might be EPA--induced, considering its apparent dopaminergic actions. At first, I felt more relaxed (which I think was placebo, but also might have been the immediate NA-reducing effect of DHA), and that night I slept better, but even before turning in for the night, my mood seemed to be lowering. Today it is definitely worse.
>
> I've read of at least one other babbler who had lowered mood on DHA, so I thought I'd ask, anyone else had problems with fish oil? Worsening depression maybe?I actually tried a high DHA formula and thought it lead to more depressed mood -- but not definitive.
Omega-Brite brand is a high EPA. It was begun by the doctor that wrote "The Omega Connection" after his own research using fish oil for bipolars.
I don't notice insomnia from fish oil. Have you tried taking it all in the morning?
JL
Posted by psychobot5000 on October 12, 2006, at 22:19:28
In reply to Re: Increased depression from DHA? » psychobot5000, posted by Jlx on October 12, 2006, at 19:39:07
I have tried taking it all in the morning, but from what I've read, EPA has a half-life of about 40-60 hours, so it's still very much in the system at bedtime. DHA apparently has a half-life more like 20-24 hours.
Still, I always have some degree of insomnia, and I can't be certain that the oils were the cause of this most recent bout. Some apparently have that experience, but say it goes away in time. I'm thinking now that the increased insomnia may have been incidental, and that the DHA was the problem. So I switched to a high EPA type, just as you suggested. I'll just have to see how that works out.
Thanks for responding--it's good to get other perspectives, and the information is much appreciated!
Posted by linkadge on October 13, 2006, at 15:22:06
In reply to EPA insomnia, dosing times, etc » Jlx, posted by psychobot5000 on October 12, 2006, at 22:19:28
I think that DHA is more stabilizing. Mood stabilizers lithium and valporate supposedly enhance DHA incorperation into brain cells.
I think that DHA dampens PKC more than EPA. It also increases BCL-2 like lithium/valproate.
I think some studies have linked to low DHA to bipolar.Pure DHA felt to me very much like lithium or valproate, wherase pure EPA really seemed to brighten things. Brighen colors, etc.
If you're just depressed I'd recomend pure EPA, but I think pure EPA would have little/no effect on mania.
For fish oil insomnia, I noticed that Niacin ~100mg really helps. Niacin and vitamin C, would probably put the damper on excess dopaminergic neurotrasnmission. Vitamin C is antidopaminergic, and niacin is probably too, indiretly.
Linkadge
Posted by circusboy on October 13, 2006, at 15:23:58
In reply to Increased depression from DHA?, posted by psychobot5000 on October 11, 2006, at 21:48:25
I'll chime in...
When I first started taking fish oil ages ago, I found it slowed down my thoughts and darkened my mood a bit if I took it during the day. Partially because of this and partially on Larry Hoover's advice to take it with your fattiest meal of the day, I started taking a full dose in the evening.
Recently I dropped all my psych drugs ('cept trusty methylphenidate) and, as you can see from my posts on SAMe, etc., got deeper into the alternative stuff. This included switching to a higher quality, higher-EPA brand of fish oil. I remembered that likadge (and others?) thought EPA gave them a boost and may even be dopaminergic, but my experience made me skeptical. For some reason, though, taking this new stuff, I wasn't sleeping as well... but I'd been throwing so many supplements at myself in a thoroughly unempirical and increasingly desperate attempt to fight back a resurgent depression, I coudn't pin it on the EPA. Finally, on a desparate whim, I took a dose at lunch and... felt pretty good. I was more focused in the afternoon and in a generally better mood.
I've been taking it at lunch every day for several weeks now with the same results. It's really surprised me, actually, that I had (part of :)) part of the answer all along, just didn't get the brand and timing right.
Anyway: I hypothesize that the old brand of fish oil had more DHA than advertised -- or at least not enough EPA to compensate -- and that's what caused the blahs. And that the new brand, with its quality and EPA content, is improving my mood.
-cb
Posted by MoparFan91 on October 14, 2006, at 9:11:01
In reply to Re: Increased depression from DHA? » psychobot5000, posted by circusboy on October 13, 2006, at 15:23:58
As far as dopaminergic effects of high EPA Fish Oil, is it anything like that of the dopamine agonist medication Mirapex? I've never taken Mirapex before or anything, but I've read that the med is given for conditions or the type of depression suggesting low dopamine (anhedonia, apathy, lack of drive, etc.).
I take high EPA Fish Oil. I use the Country Life Omega 3 Mood Formula. It has a 6.5:1 EPA/DHA ratio. In 2 capsules, there is 1000mg EPA and 150mg DHA.
I use 2 capsules three times per day for a total of 6 per day.
It seems to help various depressive symptoms, and I notice that it seems to help make me more assertive as well.
I use this supplement along with the ones I take for the pyroluria.
Posted by psychobot5000 on October 14, 2006, at 11:51:49
In reply to Re: EPA insomnia, dosing times, etc, posted by linkadge on October 13, 2006, at 15:22:06
I will try the niacin and vitamin C thing--sounds like a good idea for a specific remedy!
Posted by psychobot5000 on October 14, 2006, at 11:56:53
In reply to Re: Increased depression from DHA? » psychobot5000, posted by circusboy on October 13, 2006, at 15:23:58
That's an interesting story--glad it seems to have worked out!
Right now I'm on a 5.5:1 EPA/DHA ratio the last day or two,(after taking a high-DHA version which seemed to worsen my mood), but I've got an order of 'Pura EPA' coming in the mail, which claims to have no DHA whatsoever. Been taking my fish oil at breakfast, for action throughout the day...I wonder how moving it to lunch might work.
Thanks for the info!
Posted by psychobot5000 on October 14, 2006, at 12:00:51
In reply to EPA Dopamine, posted by MoparFan91 on October 14, 2006, at 9:11:01
I don't believe EPA is much like Mirapex--from what I've read, it increases dopamine concentrations in certain areas of the brain, whereas Mirapex somehow enhances dopamine action specifically at D3 and D2 receptors.
Then again...mirapex gives people powerful somnolence. Suppose the tiredness from EPA were not from insomnia, but instead from a reaction to its dopaminergic action, like in the dopamine agonists? Seems like a stretch, but then again, what do I really know about this?
This is the end of the thread.
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