![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by barbaracat on December 29, 2004, at 18:21:52
Hi All,
I'm on my 6th month of St. John's Wort and it is definitely helping. I have a particularly nasty and severe form of bipolar mixed-states depression, and it has helped me, despite claims that it's only for mild to moderate depression. I do have to take it along with lithium. One doesnt' work without the other for controlling the different aspects of my mood disorder, but both together work beautifully. My husband has been helped amazingly by it (I'd been telling him he was dysthymic for years and now he believes me). I'd like to share some of what I learned through alot of trial and error, research, and keeping a journal of my responses as I went along.If you don't want to read all of this, here's what works for me:
2 HBC Procotols St. John's Wort extract
1 Flora full spectrum oil-infused SJW extractYou may need to adjust amounts, but the two together are what did the trick for me. See the bottom for websites where to order. Otherwise, here's the background at how I came to discover this effective combo.
- First of all, there are many different manufacturer's, formulations, and properties to the different compounds known collectively as St. John's Wort. Some people swear it has to be the whole herb, others have isolated active ingredients into a standardized extract form. The method of extraction can vary widely too causing variations in the product's properties.
Add to this the fact that there's alot of differing opinion as to what the actual active ingredient is. Some say it's hyperforin (the current favorite), some say it's hypericin. Both seem to work. There have even been extracts of everything else except those two and it's been effective.
So no one knows what is doing the job or how it works. You get a 'this is definitely the active ingredient and how it works' and then it changes with new research.
- There are three major pharmaceutical houses who isolated and extracted the differing active compounds that were used in the major research studies (mainly in Europe - STJ by prescription is the leading AD in Germany and it was rigorously studied over there). The three formulations from these houses are referred to as Perika, Kira, and Indena. Other manufacturers jumped on the bandwagon but those are the gold standard of formulations.
- I started with Perika on good referrals from another board I'm on. It started out gangbusters, almost like too much Wellbutrin then pooped. I gave it the required 4 weeks and it started and stopped. I was also not on lithium during this time and decided I really needed it. Taking lithium supercharged the STW and it really kicked in, but a little too activating. So I switched to Kira and it was a little milder but still left me feeling a little jaggy (plus it's the most expensive). Went down to 2 instead of the standard 3 and started getting depressed again.
So I tried Flora brand, an olive-oil infused whole herb brand that was highly recommended. My depression lifted somewhat, but it wasn't strong enough even at 5 capsules.
Then I got some HBC Protocols brand which uses the Indena formulation that was used in favorable US research studies. I still had some Flora left, so I took 2 of the HBC Procotols and 1 Flora. Within 1 week life began to feel lighter and kinder and stayed that way for 1 month. Until I ran out of the Flora. Thought I could substitute the HBC for the Flora and take 3 HBC's. Nope, too agitating, too hyper.
In short, taking 3 HBC's only was too much, although a different 'too much' than Perika or Kira (HBC uses both hypericin and hyperforin with other neuro-complementary ingredients like B6, methylcobalamin, grape seed extract - plus it's the least expensive. Perika and Kira use only hyperforin). Taking 2 was not enough and I got depressed. So I thought 'hmmmm, let's try that original winner - HBC plus Flora'. And in 1.5 weeks back on Flora, life is sweeter and lighter again.
Recall that Flora is the whole herb brand that alone at 5 pills was not strong enough (perhaps more would have worked but it would get expensive). But with HBC, just 1 does the trick. So there seems to be something in the whole herb that just a little bit of acts as a catalyst to the more potent (very potent in fact) isolated active extracts found in the Big 3.
I recall a story I heard about a study where every ingredient possible was isolated from sea water and then added to regular water to duplicate ocean water as exactly as possible. Salt water fish were dying in this water. Then just 1 cup of ocean water was added to the large tank and the fish survived. Something they hadn't isolated or extracted, and it didn't take much to complete the conditions necessary for life. Maybe it wasn't even an ingredient, maybe it was something energetic that couldn't be measured or isolated.
So, I think that's what's going on with my convoluted yet happy experiment. HBC Protocols contains two of the potent extracts in a higher percentage, and those potent high-dose extracts seem to be important for rooting out a depression. You need the big guns, a true pharmaceutical grade potent extract, and not just a cup of tea. But there's something in the whole herb that makes it all come together and it doesn't take much.
For me, the lithium was crucial as well. I also take L-Taurine 1,000 twice a day for extra mood stabilization. I've tried every combination of on lithium/off SJW and vice versa and know that I need both. I'm an experimentor at heart so I know it won't stop here. Heck, I might even go wild and try two of the Flora's.
I hope this has helped shed some light on the many different variables involved in determining if St. John's is going to work for you and to keep giving it another try if you suspect it might. Give it at least 4 weeks and play with the dosages after that. I can't take too much of any AD because of the bipolar II, but my husband can take alot more with no problems.
If you want to try my regimen, you can get HBC Procotols at:
http://www.hbcprotocols.com/products-HV280.html
You can get the Flora brand at www.iherb.com and type in 'flora st. john's wort' in the search box.
If it works for you and you get it just right, you'll be very pleased with it's gentle effectiveness. No big drumrolls or euphoria, just feeling 'normal', centered, calm, motivated. It's like you can see the light shining through life again. Cheers - BarbaraCat
Posted by LOOPS on December 31, 2004, at 8:30:40
In reply to St. John's success and some thoughts, posted by barbaracat on December 29, 2004, at 18:21:52
Great post barbaracat!
I always found the powdered N American extracts too stimulating, and the high-quality German liquid extracts very relaxing, but not strong enough as anti-depressants.
I also took sjw with lithium, but it was lithium orotate (I got intense mood-swings - not sure if bipolar or not). I too found mixing different sources of sjw helpful. The first time I tried the wort, I wasn't taking the lith, and I got quite manic. Also I was not sleeping at all. Once I added the lith orotate in I calmed down and was more steady.
I didn't like Perika either. It made me very irritable and withdrawn, although it did help with depression, but not sociability. I found GNC standardized very similar - way too agitating.
I find the tea actually quite good for relaxing, but not for treating depression! However this was tea-bags, and I would love to try getting some fresh home-grown wort and infusing it. I have heard wonderful things about fresh wort, which would indicate an overall energy of the plant being important in effectiveness maybe.
I think this is why fresh tinctures are always raved about. I have heard HerbPharm is a good one, but I have never tried it - it is very expensive for just an ounce of extract, so would really tot up the gold for even a couple weeks continuous usage. But maybe it would carry a 'stronger energy'.
I also tried taurine for awhile, and I keep it for emergencies; however I did find after awhile it started making me impatient with other people. At the time I was taking it I wasn't eating any animal foods, just a lot of beans, rice and veggies (NEVER doing that one again!), so I probably had quite a deficiency going on as I don't think I'm very good at manufacturing it in my body.
If my fish oil stops working (I always dread that placebo possibility), I may try some of that flora wort - it sounds good.
Happy New Year
Loops
Posted by ravenstorm on December 31, 2004, at 11:31:06
In reply to St. John's success and some thoughts, posted by barbaracat on December 29, 2004, at 18:21:52
Just a warning to others, SJW can cause mania or mixed states in the bipolar. That is probably why you do so well on the lithium/SJW combo, Barbcat. SJW would probably drive you right up a wall like taking an SSRI without a mood stabilizer!
Do you spread your dosage out over the day, or take it all at once? Any tummy troubles from it? Thanks for all your research and CONGRATULATIONS for finding something that works for you!!
Posted by lotus on December 31, 2004, at 14:22:37
In reply to Re: St. John's success and some thoughts, posted by ravenstorm on December 31, 2004, at 11:31:06
This looks like a good product,and at an affordable price.My local health food store is charging $35.00 for this one.
http://www.evitamins.com/product.asp?pid=5290&brand=NewChapter&mtcpromotion=shop>Serofin
Posted by KaraS on December 31, 2004, at 14:24:24
In reply to St. John's success and some thoughts, posted by barbaracat on December 29, 2004, at 18:21:52
> Hi All,
> I'm on my 6th month of St. John's Wort and it is definitely helping. I have a particularly nasty and severe form of bipolar mixed-states depression, and it has helped me, despite claims that it's only for mild to moderate depression. I do have to take it along with lithium. One doesnt' work without the other for controlling the different aspects of my mood disorder, but both together work beautifully. My husband has been helped amazingly by it (I'd been telling him he was dysthymic for years and now he believes me). I'd like to share some of what I learned through alot of trial and error, research, and keeping a journal of my responses as I went along.
>
> If you don't want to read all of this, here's what works for me:
>
> 2 HBC Procotols St. John's Wort extract
> 1 Flora full spectrum oil-infused SJW extract
>
> You may need to adjust amounts, but the two together are what did the trick for me. See the bottom for websites where to order. Otherwise, here's the background at how I came to discover this effective combo.
>
> - First of all, there are many different manufacturer's, formulations, and properties to the different compounds known collectively as St. John's Wort. Some people swear it has to be the whole herb, others have isolated active ingredients into a standardized extract form. The method of extraction can vary widely too causing variations in the product's properties.
>
> Add to this the fact that there's alot of differing opinion as to what the actual active ingredient is. Some say it's hyperforin (the current favorite), some say it's hypericin. Both seem to work. There have even been extracts of everything else except those two and it's been effective.
>
> So no one knows what is doing the job or how it works. You get a 'this is definitely the active ingredient and how it works' and then it changes with new research.
>
> - There are three major pharmaceutical houses who isolated and extracted the differing active compounds that were used in the major research studies (mainly in Europe - STJ by prescription is the leading AD in Germany and it was rigorously studied over there). The three formulations from these houses are referred to as Perika, Kira, and Indena. Other manufacturers jumped on the bandwagon but those are the gold standard of formulations.
>
> - I started with Perika on good referrals from another board I'm on. It started out gangbusters, almost like too much Wellbutrin then pooped. I gave it the required 4 weeks and it started and stopped. I was also not on lithium during this time and decided I really needed it. Taking lithium supercharged the STW and it really kicked in, but a little too activating. So I switched to Kira and it was a little milder but still left me feeling a little jaggy (plus it's the most expensive). Went down to 2 instead of the standard 3 and started getting depressed again.
>
> So I tried Flora brand, an olive-oil infused whole herb brand that was highly recommended. My depression lifted somewhat, but it wasn't strong enough even at 5 capsules.
>
> Then I got some HBC Protocols brand which uses the Indena formulation that was used in favorable US research studies. I still had some Flora left, so I took 2 of the HBC Procotols and 1 Flora. Within 1 week life began to feel lighter and kinder and stayed that way for 1 month. Until I ran out of the Flora. Thought I could substitute the HBC for the Flora and take 3 HBC's. Nope, too agitating, too hyper.
>
> In short, taking 3 HBC's only was too much, although a different 'too much' than Perika or Kira (HBC uses both hypericin and hyperforin with other neuro-complementary ingredients like B6, methylcobalamin, grape seed extract - plus it's the least expensive. Perika and Kira use only hyperforin). Taking 2 was not enough and I got depressed. So I thought 'hmmmm, let's try that original winner - HBC plus Flora'. And in 1.5 weeks back on Flora, life is sweeter and lighter again.
>
> Recall that Flora is the whole herb brand that alone at 5 pills was not strong enough (perhaps more would have worked but it would get expensive). But with HBC, just 1 does the trick. So there seems to be something in the whole herb that just a little bit of acts as a catalyst to the more potent (very potent in fact) isolated active extracts found in the Big 3.
>
> I recall a story I heard about a study where every ingredient possible was isolated from sea water and then added to regular water to duplicate ocean water as exactly as possible. Salt water fish were dying in this water. Then just 1 cup of ocean water was added to the large tank and the fish survived. Something they hadn't isolated or extracted, and it didn't take much to complete the conditions necessary for life. Maybe it wasn't even an ingredient, maybe it was something energetic that couldn't be measured or isolated.
>
> So, I think that's what's going on with my convoluted yet happy experiment. HBC Protocols contains two of the potent extracts in a higher percentage, and those potent high-dose extracts seem to be important for rooting out a depression. You need the big guns, a true pharmaceutical grade potent extract, and not just a cup of tea. But there's something in the whole herb that makes it all come together and it doesn't take much.
>
> For me, the lithium was crucial as well. I also take L-Taurine 1,000 twice a day for extra mood stabilization. I've tried every combination of on lithium/off SJW and vice versa and know that I need both. I'm an experimentor at heart so I know it won't stop here. Heck, I might even go wild and try two of the Flora's.
>
> I hope this has helped shed some light on the many different variables involved in determining if St. John's is going to work for you and to keep giving it another try if you suspect it might. Give it at least 4 weeks and play with the dosages after that. I can't take too much of any AD because of the bipolar II, but my husband can take alot more with no problems.
>
> If you want to try my regimen, you can get HBC Procotols at:
>
> http://www.hbcprotocols.com/products-HV280.html
>
> You can get the Flora brand at www.iherb.com and type in 'flora st. john's wort' in the search box.
>
> If it works for you and you get it just right, you'll be very pleased with it's gentle effectiveness. No big drumrolls or euphoria, just feeling 'normal', centered, calm, motivated. It's like you can see the light shining through life again. Cheers - BarbaraCat
Yes, that is a great post. Thank you. I'm very impressed by how you've managed to fine tune your treatment. Do you mind if I ask you whether your combination provides any or enough energy and motivation for you (or was that not a problem to begin with)?Kara
Posted by barbaracat on December 31, 2004, at 19:24:09
In reply to sJW, posted by LOOPS on December 31, 2004, at 8:30:40
Sounds to me like you have a touch of good ol' Bipolar II. Have you taken other ADs and gotten the same effects? I too tried Li Orotate when I ran out of my Li carbonate and it simply did not work and I started skidding into a bonda fide dysphoric hypomania. Gave it two attemps too. Dissappointing. But lithium carbonate works great for me, I don't need a huge dose so there aren't the bad side effects. Li Orotate works great for others, though. We're all wired so differently.
I think Herb Pharm products are outrageous rip-offs. Have you ever made a tincture of fresh herb? Just put a 1/4 herb to 3/4 vodka mixture in a dark place and shake everyday and strain it after 2 weeks. Makes you realize how much profit Herb PHarm is realizing.
I like the Flora brand alot. A very reputable company as well. Their method is to infuse SJW flower tops in olive oil for 1000 days, steeping in the hot sun in either Italy or Greece. That method just appeals to me (especially as I sit here watching wet snow falling outside in 20 degree temps). They try to standadize the product as much as possible but it can't be as accurate as standardizing a solvent extract of a particular ingredient. Some day I'm going to see if I can go with Flora alone, if it's strong enough. I've heard you need to double the amount, so 6 pills instead of 3.
I know what you mean about the energetics affecting quality. SJW is not like popping a lifeless pill. At it's best, it's a living organic substance, especially the whole spectrum products, and I've heard talk many times about the plant energy in SJW doing alot of the healing work - as much as the chemical components.
I also take taurine. I've read that it helps stabilize electrical potential in nerves and muscle fibres and any good bipolar needs all the electrical stabilization as possible. I think it helps calm me. - Barbara
> Great post barbaracat!
>
> I always found the powdered N American extracts too stimulating, and the high-quality German liquid extracts very relaxing, but not strong enough as anti-depressants.
>
> I also took sjw with lithium, but it was lithium orotate (I got intense mood-swings - not sure if bipolar or not). I too found mixing different sources of sjw helpful. The first time I tried the wort, I wasn't taking the lith, and I got quite manic. Also I was not sleeping at all. Once I added the lith orotate in I calmed down and was more steady.
>
> I didn't like Perika either. It made me very irritable and withdrawn, although it did help with depression, but not sociability. I found GNC standardized very similar - way too agitating.
>
> I find the tea actually quite good for relaxing, but not for treating depression! However this was tea-bags, and I would love to try getting some fresh home-grown wort and infusing it. I have heard wonderful things about fresh wort, which would indicate an overall energy of the plant being important in effectiveness maybe.
>
> I think this is why fresh tinctures are always raved about. I have heard HerbPharm is a good one, but I have never tried it - it is very expensive for just an ounce of extract, so would really tot up the gold for even a couple weeks continuous usage. But maybe it would carry a 'stronger energy'.
>
> I also tried taurine for awhile, and I keep it for emergencies; however I did find after awhile it started making me impatient with other people. At the time I was taking it I wasn't eating any animal foods, just a lot of beans, rice and veggies (NEVER doing that one again!), so I probably had quite a deficiency going on as I don't think I'm very good at manufacturing it in my body.
>
> If my fish oil stops working (I always dread that placebo possibility), I may try some of that flora wort - it sounds good.
>
> Happy New Year
>
> Loops
Posted by barbaracat on December 31, 2004, at 19:32:31
In reply to Re: St. John's success and some thoughts, posted by ravenstorm on December 31, 2004, at 11:31:06
> Just a warning to others, SJW can cause mania or mixed states in the bipolar. That is probably why you do so well on the lithium/SJW combo, Barbcat. SJW would probably drive you right up a wall like taking an SSRI without a mood stabilizer!
**You're so right. Before I realized I was BP, taking SSRIs were creating untold agony which was getting worse as I got older and hit menopause. Any AD alone destabilizes me these days. SJW isn't an SSRI, however. It's action is very unclear and the best anyone can figure out at this point is it's in the class of a reversable MAO-A and B inhibitor working on all 3 of the neurohormones and probaboy a bunch others we don't know about.
>
> Do you spread your dosage out over the day, or take it all at once? Any tummy troubles from it?**I take 1 HBC in the am and 1HBC and 1 Flora at bedtime. I've just started adding 1 Flora in the am. It hasn't given me any bad side effects and none of the hypersensitivity to sunlight either. My husband takes all of his 3 HBC and 1 Flora at night.
>CONGRATULATIONS for finding something that works for you!!
**Thanks! Let's keep our fingers crossed that it continues.
Posted by barbaracat on December 31, 2004, at 20:23:14
In reply to Re: St. John's success and some thoughts » barbaracat, posted by KaraS on December 31, 2004, at 14:24:24
You asked if SJW provides enough energy and motivation and was it a problem. Yes, having enough steady energy and motivation has always been a problem, as well as periods of disorganization that prevented getting anything done. I'm bipolar so my hypomanias would start gangbusters with projects everywhere and tons of energy and then fizzle out and nothing could interest me in them afterwards. I have a garage full of evidence. I also have fibromyalgia so energy and pain and all that it causes have made energy and motivation a big issue.
I can't say that I've suddenly become Queen of Clean or Miss Organization, but with a clearer, happier feeling I'm more inclined to take care of business without feeling overwhelmed. I think it may take a little while to relearn all those organizational skills I forgot while being severely bipolar depressed for many years - but I now have the motivation and the trust that I'm moving forward and finally enjoying my life, even when nothing much is happening in it, and I didn't just 6 months ago - so that's something.
What I've noticed from the SJW and motivation is that I simply feel better in the present moment and so am natually inspired to do something, whatever seems appropriate for the moment. It's like a feeling of intrigue or curiosity that draws me to it and keeps it interesting. Depression seems to suck away all curiosity and interest and you need that for motivation.
I have more energy, which is a big component of motivation, and energy creates more energy, especially when I kick my butt to get outside and exercise. But I don't know if that's totally attributable to SJW. I'm doing so many nutritional and hormonal things that might all be synergistic, however, SJW has been the most recent addition and I can track my improvement since starting it.
My husband's case might be more definitive. Since I've known him for 20 years he's had dysthymia. His major symptoms were lack of motivation and ambition and lethargy the 'grey zone'. He was on Zoloft for a while during a real stressful time and it helped, but he didn't like the 'other' side effects. He recently started HBC Protocols and at 2 pills we both noticed a difference, but it wasn't quite enough. He went up to 3 pills and the difference in this man has been amazing. He's out there chopping wood, fixing appliances, just getting things done, wanting to do things. He too has been on a good nutritional and hormonal regimen as well which I'm sure is contributing, but the timing of his taking SJW and the changes in him coincide. He himself agrees that he ought to be the SJW poster boy. Plus, no bad sexual side effects. Quite the opposite (Yay!)
For me, when I'm feeling good and my health is good, there's just an impetus to get up and do something because life seems interesting. It's a calling feeling rather than a driven feeling like I've gotten with SSRI's. My motivation and energy improved, but it was a little bit frantic.
If you get on the right combination of SJW, the feeling is a more peaceful centeredness that notices when something needs doing and then responds in a focused manner.
Posted by LOOPS on January 1, 2005, at 9:16:26
In reply to Re: St. John's success and some thoughts » KaraS, posted by barbaracat on December 31, 2004, at 20:23:14
I can really relate to those mass energy surges of mania - I'm not 'officially bipolar', but who knows? I get crazy, crazy ideas for my compositions once in a blue moon. Then I am so driven and anxious it is scary. I also organize things like mad when I'm like this. Then I also never finish anything - it's like the power just gets turned off suddenly and I'm like - 'What's the point?' and don't care. I loose interest so quickly.
I never enjoy life when I'm like this. Recently I have been so bang in the middle and it is very refreshing. I am at present clearing out the house of junk, but I've been doing this steadily for about a month - not madly organizing and then getting exhausted. Before that I didn't have any motivation for about 4 years, apart from the few times I had a spark of hope, or that time I started sjw without the lithium.
My sister suffers from the same excitability and depression and general lack of emotional balance as me. I remember when she first went on ADs - I was terrified. She was pretty giggly and had this kind of mad driven agitation I didn't like - I could see it was pushing her and she looked tired as though she was being pushed into this manic state as well and didn't have the energy to maintain it.
Well, maybe she is bipolar as well. I'm pretty sure it's from my father's side, although he seems to be fairly stable, despite suffering from an overly cynical attitude! His mother had dramatic mood swings - I was terrified of her as a child, but always fought back (can you imagine, two bipolars at war with each other?!!). Her husband was just plain depressed and anxious all the time. Not much hope for us then! The other side of the family are all mad musicians, and suffer from anxiety, but not depression.
I never tried ADs after seeing my sister's reaction. I just knew I'd be the same, so I thought sjw was worth a shot, then I got into researching all kinds of things and really experimenting with vitamins etc. I'm glad I did.
Loops
Posted by KaraS on January 1, 2005, at 13:51:16
In reply to Re: St. John's success and some thoughts » KaraS, posted by barbaracat on December 31, 2004, at 20:23:14
> You asked if SJW provides enough energy and motivation and was it a problem. Yes, having enough steady energy and motivation has always been a problem, as well as periods of disorganization that prevented getting anything done. I'm bipolar so my hypomanias would start gangbusters with projects everywhere and tons of energy and then fizzle out and nothing could interest me in them afterwards. I have a garage full of evidence. I also have fibromyalgia so energy and pain and all that it causes have made energy and motivation a big issue.
>
> I can't say that I've suddenly become Queen of Clean or Miss Organization, but with a clearer, happier feeling I'm more inclined to take care of business without feeling overwhelmed. I think it may take a little while to relearn all those organizational skills I forgot while being severely bipolar depressed for many years - but I now have the motivation and the trust that I'm moving forward and finally enjoying my life, even when nothing much is happening in it, and I didn't just 6 months ago - so that's something.
>
> What I've noticed from the SJW and motivation is that I simply feel better in the present moment and so am natually inspired to do something, whatever seems appropriate for the moment. It's like a feeling of intrigue or curiosity that draws me to it and keeps it interesting. Depression seems to suck away all curiosity and interest and you need that for motivation.
>
> I have more energy, which is a big component of motivation, and energy creates more energy, especially when I kick my butt to get outside and exercise. But I don't know if that's totally attributable to SJW. I'm doing so many nutritional and hormonal things that might all be synergistic, however, SJW has been the most recent addition and I can track my improvement since starting it.
>
> My husband's case might be more definitive. Since I've known him for 20 years he's had dysthymia. His major symptoms were lack of motivation and ambition and lethargy the 'grey zone'. He was on Zoloft for a while during a real stressful time and it helped, but he didn't like the 'other' side effects. He recently started HBC Protocols and at 2 pills we both noticed a difference, but it wasn't quite enough. He went up to 3 pills and the difference in this man has been amazing. He's out there chopping wood, fixing appliances, just getting things done, wanting to do things. He too has been on a good nutritional and hormonal regimen as well which I'm sure is contributing, but the timing of his taking SJW and the changes in him coincide. He himself agrees that he ought to be the SJW poster boy. Plus, no bad sexual side effects. Quite the opposite (Yay!)
>
> For me, when I'm feeling good and my health is good, there's just an impetus to get up and do something because life seems interesting. It's a calling feeling rather than a driven feeling like I've gotten with SSRI's. My motivation and energy improved, but it was a little bit frantic.
>
> If you get on the right combination of SJW, the feeling is a more peaceful centeredness that notices when something needs doing and then responds in a focused manner.
So SJW provides a normal kind of balanced motivation as part of a complete antidepressant response for you. Have you ever tried any SSRIs? If so, did they give you that same kind of response? I know that SJW is not an SSRI but I've read that it's effects can be predominantly serotonergic. Effexor is mostly serotonergic. That provided me with some mood lift but left me with that typical SSRI apathy. I tried Perika but couldn't tolerate it at all. It was just horrible for me. I have tried 300 mg. of Jarrow SJW for a few days only and I tolerated that one well up to that point. I probably should have given it more of a trial but I was afraid of spending two months and ending up with the same problem that I had from Effexor. But when I read your post, I found myself thinking that I should give SJW more of a trial.Thanks,
Kara
Posted by barbaracat on January 1, 2005, at 18:09:23
In reply to Re: St. John's success and some thoughts » barbaracat, posted by KaraS on January 1, 2005, at 13:51:16
> So SJW provides a normal kind of balanced motivation as part of a complete antidepressant response for you.
**Yes, it's not a speedy kind of drive that I experienced from some ADs.
>>Have you ever tried any SSRIs? If so, did they give you that same kind of response?
**Oh, yes. I've been on all of them, SSRIs, tricyclics, atypicals, mood stabilizers, Lamictal. Some of them, like Wellbutrin and Lamictal made me feel hyper. Not the same thing as motivation which is for me, energy combined with interest. Some SSRI's made me feel more motivated as an overall response to feeling better, but I can't say the feeling was ever one of peacefulness. It was a more tight feeling inside and I had jaw and muscular tension..
>I know that SJW is not an SSRI but I've read that it's effects can be predominantly serotonergic.
**Recent studies show that it affects all three, plus GABA. I have not noticed any sense of apathy at all, like I did with SSRIs. Emotions are appropriate responses. I can still cry with emotions, unlike when I was on SSRIs. The symptom relief/effect feels very different than on SSRIs. I never felt 'happy' or 'lightness of spirit' from SSRIs, more just an absence of suffering.
**How did you not tolerate the Perika and Jarrow? As I wrote earlier, I had a hard time with Perika too. It felt like an SSRI and was having some destabilizing bipolar effects from it, like I would if I were taking a real SSRI. This HBC Protocols stuff along with the Flora feels totally different to me. Part of it may be that Perika and Kira and most of the brands out there use only hyperforin extract, thinking that's the active component. Maybe it's effective but only targets certain transmittors, or however it works. HBC has another extract as well which may have a different target. Flora brand is a full-spetrum extract from flowers infused in olive oil. I really do need both brands and I truly cannot tolerate anything that acts like a SSRI because of my bipolar disorder. St. John's also has had no effect on my sexual response. If anything, I'm finally enjoying it since I'm not in constant angst these days.
I'll bet that SJW works best when the whole plant is present at some level. You need the active components in a high enough dose, but you also need the living stuff too. I can only say what works for me, but I do say it should be hyperforin > 4%, hypericin >0.3% and a full-spectrum booster instead of a single extract brand.
Remember, I'm also taking lithium which I could not do without, and fish oil. These three are important for my health. I don't do as well without any of these three. I'm also working on balancing all my hormones as well, so it's not just the SJW alone that's made the difference. But I tell you, just looking at my husband's response and I know it's doing something. Happy New Year, Kara. Looking forward to a year that's gotta be a whole lot better than 2004. - Barbara
Posted by KaraS on January 1, 2005, at 19:09:57
In reply to Re: St. John's success and some thoughts, posted by barbaracat on January 1, 2005, at 18:09:23
> > So SJW provides a normal kind of balanced motivation as part of a complete antidepressant response for you.
>
> **Yes, it's not a speedy kind of drive that I experienced from some ADs.I've never received much motivation from any ADs (maybe a little from low dose nortriptyline but the tachycardia prevented me from continuing with it.) so even the speedy drive kind sounds good to me.
> >>Have you ever tried any SSRIs? If so, did they give you that same kind of response?
>
> **Oh, yes. I've been on all of them, SSRIs, tricyclics, atypicals, mood stabilizers, Lamictal. Some of them, like Wellbutrin and Lamictal made me feel hyper. Not the same thing as motivation which is for me, energy combined with interest. Some SSRI's made me feel more motivated as an overall response to feeling better, but I can't say the feeling was ever one of peacefulness. It was a more tight feeling inside and I had jaw and muscular tension..Interesting how we all respond so differently to these meds. It is such a pleasure, though, to read about your (and your husband's) success with SJW.
> >I know that SJW is not an SSRI but I've read that it's effects can be predominantly serotonergic.
>
> **Recent studies show that it affects all three, plus GABA. I have not noticed any sense of apathy at all, like I did with SSRIs. Emotions are appropriate responses. I can still cry with emotions, unlike when I was on SSRIs. The symptom relief/effect feels very different than on SSRIs. I never felt 'happy' or 'lightness of spirit' from SSRIs, more just an absence of suffering.I bet certain brands of SJW are more serotonergic than others which may account for the apathy some have reported with SJW. The fact that you have the full herb effect with the addition of the Flora probably helps to ensure broader coverage as well.
> **How did you not tolerate the Perika and Jarrow?I tolerated the Jarrow well in the small amount that I took but I didn't continue with it because I read posts where some people who were taking SJW compared their results to SSRIs and also mentioned the apathy they felt. That was what I wanted to get away from. So then I got the Perika because I read it was more dopaminergic. It made me feel so sick and my head felt like it was going to explode (and that was only with 300 mg.) It was truly horrible. Anyway, your posts have renewed my interest in SJW.
As I wrote earlier, I had a hard time with Perika too. It felt like an SSRI and was having some destabilizing bipolar effects from it, like I would if I were taking a real SSRI. This HBC Protocols stuff along with the Flora feels totally different to me. Part of it may be that Perika and Kira and most of the brands out there use only hyperforin extract, thinking that's the active component. Maybe it's effective but only targets certain transmittors, or however it works. HBC has another extract as well which may have a different target. Flora brand is a full-spetrum extract from flowers infused in olive oil. I really do need both brands and I truly cannot tolerate anything that acts like a SSRI because of my bipolar disorder. St. John's also has had no effect on my sexual response. If anything, I'm finally enjoying it since I'm not in constant angst these days.
You really do make it sound ideal.
> I'll bet that SJW works best when the whole plant is present at some level. You need the active components in a high enough dose, but you also need the living stuff too. I can only say what works for me, but I do say it should be hyperforin > 4%, hypericin >0.3% and a full-spectrum booster instead of a single extract brand.When I try it again, I will definitely add some of the Flora brand to it.
> Remember, I'm also taking lithium which I could not do without, and fish oil. These three are important for my health. I don't do as well without any of these three. I'm also working on balancing all my hormones as well, so it's not just the SJW alone that's made the difference. But I tell you, just looking at my husband's response and I know it's doing something. Happy New Year, Kara. Looking forward to a year that's gotta be a whole lot better than 2004. - Barbara
I am also building up on the fish oil now after reading some of the recent threads here. I do like the idea of solving my problems more naturally and safely.
Another concern I remember I had about SJW was that I read about it having a depressing or diminishing effect on estrogen. (I'm not describing it well but you probably know what I mean.) I was having bad hot flashes at the time and didn't want anything else to make it worse. Did you find that the SJW had any negative impact on your estrogen levels? Are you working with a doctor to balance your hormone levels?
Also, did it take you the full 8 weeks to see results? My situation is really quite desperate. I have to get functional soon or I'll lose my apartment and my independence. For that reason (along with their success rate in treatment resistant cases) I have been considering an MAOI. I'm still a bit frightened of them though.
Definitely agree about the better year for all of us here on PB!
Thanks again for all of your help, Barbara.
K
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