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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on January 13, 2004, at 19:41:08
As I sit here sipping on my fourth absinthe drip of the night (improvised with Herbsaint Liqueur d'Anis and extract of wormwood), I'm wondering -- I've often heard of the chemical similarities between alpha-thujone and delta-9-tetrahydrocannibinol. But can anyone tell me whether thujone (or any of the dozen or so other active herbal constituents of absinthe... beta-asarone, anethole, etc.) possesses any qualities which allow it to influence THC receptors? I just have to ask, because my lengthy experience with absinthe sure suggests to me that it does, lol!
P.S. I notice a definite "absinthian" effect even from pastis marketed within the U.S. without wormwood (i.e. Herbsaint, Pernod, Ricard, Absente). That's what leads me to believe that there's more to The Green Fairy than meets the FDA's eye.
Posted by SLS on January 14, 2004, at 15:00:28
In reply to Absinthe, thujone, THC, posted by Ame Sans Vie on January 13, 2004, at 19:41:08
> As I sit here sipping on my fourth absinthe drip of the night
Didn't Vincent Van Gohg consume absinthe?
- Scott
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on January 17, 2004, at 10:13:31
In reply to Re: Absinthe, thujone, THC, posted by SLS on January 14, 2004, at 15:00:28
Yeah, Van Gogh was one of the more notorious absintheurs of days gone by. There is still debate as to whether it was his chronic use of absinthe which led him to cut off his own ear, to stop the voices. Of course, most scientists with knowledge on the subject of "absinthism" today recognize it for what it truly was -- alcoholism. Absinthe was commonly 150 proof, and it was routinely drunk by the bottle.
For the record, Ernest Hemingway, Teddy Roosevelt, Baudelaire, Manet, Oscar Wilde, Marilyn Manson, and Johnny Depp are some other absinthe afficionados.
Also, I've now discovered that even pastis (absinthe w/o wormwood) does contain thujone! The most popular brand in the U.S., Absente, contains 3.5mg/L (they use Southern wormwood, instead of Roman wormwood, to sneak it past the FDA). To put things into perspective, in Spain, Portugal, England, and other European Union countries wherein absinthe is legal, there is a law that allows no more than 10mg/L of thujone in any absinthe. So 3.5mg is a pretty good amount, and surely accounts for the feeling I get from Absente that is so absinthe-like.
Posted by EscherDementian on January 23, 2004, at 2:21:25
In reply to Re: Absinthe, thujone, THC » SLS, posted by Ame Sans Vie on January 17, 2004, at 10:13:31
Van Gogh could not afford absinthe. He sometimes ate his paint which contained the lead that causes visual alterations in toxic levels and might have driven him mad, but severe depression also ran in his family and took his dearly loved brother to suicide. After cutting off his ear, Van Gogh sent it to the woman he was obsessed with, which by some accounts was a 'lady of the night'- unaffordable to him. Other accounts say she was his matronly patron landlady. He was volatile with violent rages, which caused his best friend the artist Gauguin to terminate being roommates and support Van Gogh's scheme of creating an artist's sanctuary.
i think you might be thinking of the french artist Tolouse-Lautrec who painted and sketched the decadent people of Parisian nights in the late 1800s and was nearly just as famous for being an absinthe addict?
Not an artist but a writer, wasn't Edgar Allen Poe into absinthe too? Erhm, hmm... maybe that was opium. He was an alcoholic, and they DID get to inject morphine and/or cocaine in his day. But he was poor, too. Is his writing similar to the "absinthe-like" consciousness you speak of, Ame Sans Vie?
Lord Shelly and his wife Mary indulged in absinthe regularly. Don't know how factual it is, but the film _Gothic_ was a fun spiral into their absinthe madness and her inspired beginning of "Frankenstein" ...
But then again, i may be wrong~ ;)
my own memories are frighteningly spun in this dark night of my soul currently.
It sure is good to see a familiar name here still, Ames Sans Vie. How are you?Escher
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on January 23, 2004, at 20:12:17
In reply to Re: Absinthe, Van Gogh, posted by EscherDementian on January 23, 2004, at 2:21:25
> Van Gogh could not afford absinthe. He sometimes ate his paint which contained the lead that causes visual alterations in toxic levels and might have driven him mad, but severe depression also ran in his family and took his dearly loved brother to suicide.
Well, I wasn't there to witness Vincent partaking of the Green Fairy personally of course, but many resources I've consulted on the matter state that Van Gogh was quite the avid absinthe afficionado. His self-portrait is even featured on the packaging for Absente, a low-thujone pseudo-absinthe (similar to Pernod, Herbsaint, or the pastis Ricard, Duval, Jeannot, Casanis, and Henri Bardouin) which is legal here in the States. It uses Artemisia abrotantum (Southern wormwood) in place of Artemisia absinthium (wormwood) and Artemisia pontica (Roman wormwood) which provides less thujone -- Absente contains 3.5mg/kg. The limit set in the European Union on thujone content is 10mg/kg in beverages with 25%+ alcohol, 5mg/kg in weaker alcoholic beverages, 35mg/kg in bitters, and 0.5mg/kg in non-alcoholic foods and beverages. Pre-prohibition absinthes were commonly 30-100mg/kg, and a modern gray-market Swiss absinthe, Suisse la Bleue, contains somewhere between 50-100mg/kg.
Another bit of evidence pointing toward Van Gogh's use of absinthe is his painting "Still Life with Absinthe" (http://chemweb.calpoly.edu/chem/bailey/377/PapersSp2000/Ann/vangogh.html),
From what I've read, it seems that he may actually have macerated and distilled the liqueur himself (a very simple process of course, with a bit of know-how), or even skipped the distilling process altogether (though I don't know how anyone could stand the inhumanly bitter taste of undistilled absinthe). This could account for the discrepancy between his finances and his alleged excessive absinthe consumption.
I have heard about the paint thing actually... he would ingest paint, kerosene, turpentine, and camphor to satisfy his "fixation" on members of the chemical class of terpenes -- thujone is a member of the terpene family.
I am definitely convinced that the genetics theory holds a lot of weight in this case. As to whether absinthe itself expedited his descent into a delusional hell, or if it exacerbated what may otherwise have been a less serious condition, I'm really not convinced either way. If absinthe was a contributor, I'd probably partially attribute its deleterious effects on his mental health to the stimulant/sedative/psychedelic Acorus calamus alkaloids alpha- and beta-asarone, the psychedelic aniseed alkaloid anethole, and the opioid analgesic constituent of wormwood -- absinthine. These were present in most commercial and homebrewed absinthes of days past (as well as some of the better modern absinthes produced in Europe which stand by the old Henri-Louis Pernod formula of aniseed, fennel, star anise, lemonbalm, angelica, hyssop, wormwood, dittany, juniper, nutmeg, veronica, and calamus). Then you have to consider that, if he *was* purchasing his absinthe, his lack of funds most likely forced him to purchase inferior products which were infused with poisons such as copper sulfate, cupric acetate indigo, turmeric, and aniline green to give the drink its emerald color (chlorophyll is what gives good absinthe its color) and antimony chloride (which helped the absinthe to louche when water was added). And the 70-80% ethanol content common to absinthe surely didn't help his state of mind either. :-) Alpha-thujone, though a convulsant (GABA-antagonist) in large doses (doses which, through absinthe consumption, would be preceeded by alcohol poisoning), appears by most accounts to be rather harmless in moderation, IMHO. Finally, there is speculation that Van Gogh was prescribed digitalis for epilepsy (among other evidence, two of his paintings depict his doctor holding a foxglove plant). Digitalis can cause xanthopsia (yellow vision) and coronas (glowing haloes around objects) which could account for the bright yellow hues used in his later works as well as worsened his visual hallucinations.
> After cutting off his ear, Van Gogh sent it to the woman he was obsessed with, which by some accounts was a 'lady of the night'- unaffordable to him.
Interesting, I hadn't heard that... ya learn something new every day. :-)
> Other accounts say she was his matronly patron landlady. He was volatile with violent rages, which caused his best friend the artist Gauguin to terminate being roommates and support Van Gogh's scheme of creating an artist's sanctuary.
A lot going on behind the scenes here... thanks for filling me in. I'm not very familiar at all with Van Gogh's bio -- I just love his art to death (it may be cliche, but "Starry Night" is easily my all-time favorite work... just about anything Maurits Cornelis Escher's ever done runs quite a close second :-).
> i think you might be thinking of the french artist Tolouse-Lautrec who painted and sketched the decadent people of Parisian nights in the late 1800s and was nearly just as famous for being an absinthe addict?
Nope, not who I was thinking of, but thanks for reminding me... I've heard that Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec actually filled his hollow walking-stick with absinthe when he went out for the evenings, lol.
> Not an artist but a writer, wasn't Edgar Allen Poe into absinthe too? Erhm, hmm... maybe that was opium. He was an alcoholic, and they DID get to inject morphine and/or cocaine in his day. But he was poor, too.
Are you sure he was an alcoholic? I was under the impression that the jury was still out on this one... some say Poe had a metabolic disorder which caused him to become violently ill from consuming even modest quantities of liquor (but as insight into addiction continues to grow, we of course have to acknowledge the possibility that he drank anyway, despite the consequences... and it's possible that his use of other drugs was partially a means to suppress these symptoms).
On the other side of the coin, I've read that Poe was quite fond of a concoction of his own creation which is said to have contained one part absinthe, one part brandy, and 5ml laudanum (tincture of opium -- 10mg morphine/ml, plus small amounts of other naturally-occurring opiate alkaloids -- codeine, thebaine, papaverine). Also, his close friend Henry B. Hirst was a known absintheur. It's speculated that at least a few (and perhaps most) of Poe's works were either odes to absinthe or greatly influenced by his consumption of it.
Whatever the case, it's pretty much undisputed that Poe was a big fan of laudanum which was of course very readily available in those days.
Just as an aside, some others notorious for their love of absinthe include Ernest Hemingway, Oscar Wilde, Charles Cros, Alfred Jarry, Arthur Rimbaud, Paul Marie Verlaine, Ernest Dowson, Edgar Degas, Pablo Picasso, Edouard Manet, Adolphe Monticello, Charles Baudelaire, Pres. Theodore Roosevelt, Guy de Maupassant, Aleister Crowley, Jack London, Mark Twain, Pres. Andrew Jackson, Emile Zola, Jean Lafitte, and Paul Gauguin.
>Is his writing similar to the "absinthe-like" consciousness you speak of, Ame Sans Vie?
Well, absinthe, like any psychedelic, can have wildly unpredictable effects from person to person. The creativity channels in my mind are overflowing with a "Poe-esque" quality, I suppose one could say, but my passion (though I love to write as well) is composing music, so it's rather difficult to draw a comparison. I certainly do not find that absinthe turns my lyricism into a morose thing, however... quite the opposite. It all depends on your underlying deepest thoughts and emotions, I suppose... hence my analogy to psychedelics earlier -- LSD-25, psilocybin, mescaline, salvinorin-A, cannabinoids, and a quite vast array of various tryptamines, substituted amphetamines, and random natural alkaloids are notorious for amplifying what the user feels deep down. Regardless of how diligently they may try to suppress it (unless that diligence constitutes a bit of MDMA/MDA/MDE for supplementation of course, lol).
> Lord Shelly and his wife Mary indulged in absinthe regularly. Don't know how factual it is, but the film _Gothic_ was a fun spiral into their absinthe madness and her inspired beginning of "Frankenstein" ...Once again, something I was not aware of... I'll have to check that film out...
> But then again, i may be wrong~ ;)
> my own memories are frighteningly spun in this dark night of my soul currently.
> It sure is good to see a familiar name here still, Ames Sans Vie. How are you?Likewise! :-) I'm doing just wonderful, thanks... just recently got back into posting after a bit of a break and now I realize how much I missed these boards while I was away, lol.
I'm terribly sorry to hear you're not doing so well... if there's anything I can do to help, or if you just want to talk, feel free to e-mail me at amesansvie@yahoo.com. Take care! :-)
Michael
Posted by EscherDementian on January 24, 2004, at 6:46:00
In reply to Re: Absinthe, Van Gogh » EscherDementian, posted by Ame Sans Vie on January 23, 2004, at 20:12:17
Hmmmm... i am most possibly uninformed or mislead by my art history lectures and required reading - or perhaps by the Dutch themselves ?
lol
Curious though, what are your sources re Van Gogh?
Art school wasn't all that interesting for me when it came to history, but THIS is interesting to me...Ah yes, Laudanum. That must be what this MIA brain of mine must have been trying to remember when recalling Poe...
Thank you for the email invite and the well wishes. And i, too have been away from Pbabble for awhile- since mid November. *sheesh* much has happened since i've been away. Things can get very eventful in one's absinthe, can't they?
Monique
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