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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 52 to 76 of 78. Go back in thread:
Posted by sigismund on October 7, 2013, at 13:11:47
In reply to Re: sacrifice, posted by Dr. Bob on October 7, 2013, at 2:20:12
>Well, killing someone is in a way sacrificing them.
S'pose
>Thinking more about sacrifice, wasn't it sometimes considered an honor to be the one sacrificed? To redeem the community?
Yes, even in Tenochtlitan (sp?) there was something of that, though it is an example at the edges. Is the American military an example?
>I guess some people might prefer being killed to interminable arguments. I guess at Babble I've chosen interminable arguments.
You have now. I don't know if it was the re-election of Bush when things went wild here (as I read once here) and you made a change before my time? But from around then people could be blocked for nothing.
>There's who we are and how we feel about each other. There's also how we treat each other. What would be the equivalent here of leaving someone alone?
Leaving someone alone is easy, being kind is easy too, being kind and good more difficult.
We don't have that much time left for stupid arguments, not me anyway. It would be hell with eternal life....they would simply never stop....which is why conversations toward the end of a person's life can acquire a new dimension, (along with the forgetfulness and repetition).
Sacrifice is a dangerous concept. Was WWI about anything? From inside, not much, from outside it looks like a struggle for supremacy among thieves. But once it starts going there has to be meaning made of the sacrifice, always at someone else's expense. I suppose you could turn it around and say that the US could have renounced imperial ambition and given its poorest health care and more instead. I can never forget HG Wells saying, when asked about the brown (not black) races, 'I assume they will just have to go'. There's a lot of those, there were 85M in the western hemisphere before Columbus, a drop in the bloody ocean, he was talking about India and China.
Posted by Homelycygnet on October 8, 2013, at 12:02:31
In reply to Re: sacrifice, posted by sigismund on October 7, 2013, at 13:11:47
Sanctify, O Lord, the sickness of your servant , that the sense of his weakness may add strength to his faith and seriousness to his repentance; and grant that he may live with you in everlasting life; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen
That was a horrific image of Hell. I hope you feel better. Did you run out of pain pills?
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 8, 2013, at 16:52:09
In reply to Re: sacrifice, posted by sigismund on October 7, 2013, at 13:11:47
> > Thinking more about sacrifice, wasn't it sometimes considered an honor to be the one sacrificed? To redeem the community?
>
> Yes, even in [Tenochtitlan] there was something of that, though it is an example at the edges. Is the American military an example?Good question.
1. People being willing to sacrifice themselves, but maybe emerging victorious, seems different.
2. Victory and redemption seem to be very different goals.
> > I guess some people might prefer being killed to interminable arguments. I guess at Babble I've chosen interminable arguments.
>
> You have now. I don't know if it was the re-election of Bush when things went wild here (as I read once here) and you made a change before my time? But from around then people could be blocked for nothing.Only very early on was blocking permanent = like death.
> > What would be the equivalent here of leaving someone alone?
>
> Leaving someone alone is easy, being kind is easy tooEasier said than done, if you ask me.
> Sacrifice is a dangerous concept. ... once it starts going there has to be meaning made of the sacrifice, always at someone else's expense. I suppose you could turn it around and say that the US could have renounced imperial ambition and given its poorest health care and more instead.
That's the difference between redemption and victory.
In this context, imperial ambition = changing the rules, and giving its poorest health care and more = supporting each other?
Bob
Posted by sigismund on October 8, 2013, at 17:24:10
In reply to Re: sacrifice, posted by Homelycygnet on October 8, 2013, at 12:02:31
> Did you run out of pain pills?
No no, just being judicious.
Posted by sigismund on October 8, 2013, at 17:35:27
In reply to Re: sacrifice, posted by Dr. Bob on October 8, 2013, at 16:52:09
>In this context, imperial ambition = changing the rules, and giving its poorest health care and more = supporting each other?
After the wars the ambition was composed of different things, not all bad by any means. Why can't rich allied countries (Australia, Japan, Europe) pay their way more for the defence structure? Why could not some of that money be used for health care in the US? We got the public option here soon after 72 and it has been an absolute non-drama and is accepted by both sides now.
As for kindness, I am unhappy if I am not. Not always a good thing.
Posted by Homelycygnet on October 8, 2013, at 19:17:16
In reply to Re: sacrifice » Dr. Bob, posted by sigismund on October 8, 2013, at 17:35:27
I don't think you are kind. I like you but I think your exploitation of thirdworld people for your own emotional gratification is deplorable. You are destroying someone else's culture while touristing about spreading the culture you find so much pleasure in holding in contempt. And you're patronising sentimentality is not kindness it's consumption. But I am glad you are not dying I was freaked out this morning. At least the days of people posting suicide threats on Babble is over right?
Please lobby bob for permanent voluntary blocks. I think his pride in his "empire" makes it impossibe for him to realize that for some of us blocks aren't deaths, they are freedom! The advantage of voluntary blocks over simply staying away is that a block is at least a statement of repudiation for the "empire". As long as there is a possibility of posting there is an element of membership. It's like a club you can't get out of. If you join a book club and it evolves into the Hitler youth and they won't take you off the membership rolls etc etc etc.
I've always been kind too. We just have differnet definitions.
> As for kindness, I am unhappy if I am not. Not always a good thing.
>
>
Posted by sigismund on October 9, 2013, at 1:31:09
In reply to delusions of kindness » sigismund, posted by Homelycygnet on October 8, 2013, at 19:17:16
Well, you might be right (at the beginning of your post). I don't know. I was happy there.
I hope you didn't feel it was a suicide threat. I can't remember what I said exactly. I am just heading into the zone where people die.
Still, I don't agree. Though, you could argue, I should learn an Aboriginal language. They really are in danger of dying out. We are who we are. I am through with trying to change myself.
I was of two minds about my post about Lou. On the one hand I had been reading this for 6 months and I said what I thought. On the other, as you were perhaps implying, a part of me felt it was cowardly and contemptible.
> while touristing about spreading the culture you find so much pleasure in holding in contempt. And you're patronising sentimentality is not kindness it's consumption
You could be right. In part.
Posted by sigismund on October 9, 2013, at 3:16:28
In reply to Re: delusions of kindness » Homelycygnet, posted by sigismund on October 9, 2013, at 1:31:09
I don't think I said I was kind. I said that being kind is easy, and that I am happy when I am kind. I am too angry and contemptuous to be kind very often, but being kind fits with my basic nature. And isn't that true of most of us? That we are happiest giving and receiving kindnesses?
My best time there was sharing the things I love about our culture, like listening to 'Closing Time' or (oddly enough) 'Cygnet Committee' over and over again. I felt blessed.
Posted by HomelyCygnet on October 9, 2013, at 8:42:43
In reply to Re: delusions of kindness, posted by sigismund on October 9, 2013, at 3:16:28
Posted by Phillipa on October 9, 2013, at 19:58:57
In reply to Re: delusions of kindness, posted by sigismund on October 9, 2013, at 3:16:28
Sigi I find you very kind and thoughtful. PJ
Posted by sigismund on October 9, 2013, at 20:06:26
In reply to I'm kind of a duckwit sometimes (nm) » sigismund, posted by HomelyCygnet on October 9, 2013, at 8:42:43
Just to clarify kind being easy.
When one is naturally kind it *is* easy.
And
There was a woman on TV. She had taken in a kid 3 years old, she fostered him and eventually adopted him and now he is almost 20. He had been terribly abused, just shockingly. And she said 'When you see the difference you can make, it is so easy'. She didn't mean the experience was easy. She must have meant that the decision to endure and partake of all the difficulties was easy to make, that she was glad she did it and would do it again.
I meant it like that. Parents know this anyway, unless they are selfish, over-entitled or whatever.
Posted by sigismund on October 9, 2013, at 20:17:28
In reply to Re: delusions of kindness » sigismund, posted by Phillipa on October 9, 2013, at 19:58:57
Well often PJ I feel like Mary McCarthy (mutatis mutandis) saying "Every word he says is a lie, including 'and' and 'the'", and the best that could be said about that is that it gives you something to chew on.
But that is part of therapy isn't it? Learning how to be more truthful? Really I don't know anything, just make it up as I go along.
But that is no problem....one of my favourite Leonard Cohen lines is......
'But I'm stubborn as those garbage bags that time cannot decay
I'm junk but I'm still holding up this little wild bouquet
Democracy is coming to the USA.'It's the 'I'm junk' I love. Very Toaist.
Posted by Phillipa on October 9, 2013, at 20:52:37
In reply to Re: delusions of kindness » Phillipa, posted by sigismund on October 9, 2013, at 20:17:28
Unique & thought provoking. PJ
Posted by sigismund on October 9, 2013, at 21:11:39
In reply to Re: delusions of kindness » sigismund, posted by Phillipa on October 9, 2013, at 20:52:37
The reason I have not been able to find it in the Chuang Tzu is that it is in the Tao Te Ching.
Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 13
Accept disgrace willingly.
Accept misfortune as the human condition.What do you mean by "Accept disgrace willingly"?
Accept being unimportant.
Do not be concerned with loss and gain.
This is called "accepting disgrace willingly."What do you mean by "Accept misfortune as the human condition"?
Misfortune comes from having a body.
Without a body, how could there be misfortune?Surrender yourself humbly; then you can be trusted to care for all things.
Love the world as your own self; then you can truly care for all things.
I had an older friend a long time back, an important man of the world in a way, and one day he said about something or other 'I don't matter', and I guess he was just talking about the evanescence of things and time.I always wanted to be a saint too.
Posted by sigismund on October 9, 2013, at 21:27:17
In reply to Re: delusions of kindness, posted by sigismund on October 9, 2013, at 21:11:39
The translations can be quite different.
"Welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise.
Prize calamities as your own body."Why should we "welcome disgrace as a pleasant
surprise"?
Because a lowly state is a boon:
Getting it is a pleasant surprise,
And so is losing it!
That is why we should "welcome disgrace as a pleasant
surprise."Why should we "prize calamities as our own body"?
Because our body is the very source of our calamities.
If we have no body, what calamities can we have?Hence, only he who is willing to give his body for the
sake of the world is fit to be entrusted with the world.
Only he who can do it with love is worthy of being the
steward of the world.
Posted by sigismund on October 9, 2013, at 21:56:18
In reply to Re: delusions of kindness, posted by sigismund on October 9, 2013, at 21:27:17
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 10, 2013, at 2:29:29
In reply to Re: delusions of kindness, posted by sigismund on October 9, 2013, at 21:11:39
> > In this context, imperial ambition = changing the rules, and giving its poorest health care and more = supporting each other?
>
> Why can't rich allied countries (Australia, Japan, Europe) pay their way more for the defence structure? Why could not some of that money be used for health care in the US?> Just to clarify kind being easy.
>
> When one is naturally kind it *is* easy.
>
> And
>
> There was a woman on TV. She had taken in a kid 3 years old, she fostered him and eventually adopted him and now he is almost 20. He had been terribly abused, just shockingly. And she said 'When you see the difference you can make, it is so easy'. She didn't mean the experience was easy. She must have meant that the decision to endure and partake of all the difficulties was easy to make, that she was glad she did it and would do it again.
>
> I meant it like that.> Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 13
>
> Accept disgrace willingly.
>
> What do you mean by "Accept disgrace willingly"?
> Accept being unimportant.
> Do not be concerned with loss and gain.
> This is called "accepting disgrace willingly."What keeps one from making the decision to care for others? What keeps one from accepting being unimportant? What keeps one concerned with loss and gain?
If one is naturally uncaring, might sacrificing oneself be an (unnatural) act of caring? If one isn't concerned with loss and gain, and accepts being unimportant, might one be more likely to sacrifice oneself?
Bob
Posted by Sigismund on October 11, 2013, at 17:53:19
In reply to Re: kindness and sacrifice, posted by Dr. Bob on October 10, 2013, at 2:29:29
> What keeps one from accepting being unimportant?
Living in a toxic culture of entitlement and narcissism in the anglosphere? No truly, I dunno.
You know round here there are people who believe that your thoughts can give you cancer? And therefore all the poor people in the world have bad karma? Cygnet is right....I do enjoy holding these ideas in contempt.
With loss and gain we are back to the famous passage in the Gita with Krishna and Arjuna. It's too difficult for me....and any human idea will be turned to any purpose.
I think most people are naturally caring at least some of the time. Though when I see some parents and think of the culture of entitlement and self-empowerment?
In one of my Peruvian books a curandero was saying 'Cuando pienso en Fitzcarraldo y estos hombres, preferiria ser serpiente'. That's more or less my bottom line.
Posted by Twinleaf on October 11, 2013, at 18:02:01
In reply to Re: kindness and sacrifice, posted by Dr. Bob on October 10, 2013, at 2:29:29
Dr.Bob, you win the prize for thinking up questions which do not appear relevant to anything actually going on here!
Posted by Sigismund on October 11, 2013, at 18:12:53
In reply to Re: kindness and sacrifice, posted by Sigismund on October 11, 2013, at 17:53:19
It's just maybe a bad dream I live in, a hallucination. No one, not many are really like this. I've stopped watching TV. Cancer seems like a good option, some drugs that bloody well work.
Posted by Sigismund on October 11, 2013, at 18:15:45
In reply to Re: kindness and sacrifice, posted by Sigismund on October 11, 2013, at 18:12:53
Give me an ounce of civet, good apothecary, sweeten my imagination.
Posted by sigismund on October 11, 2013, at 19:43:46
In reply to Re: kindness and sacrifice, posted by Dr. Bob on October 10, 2013, at 2:29:29
> What keeps one from accepting being unimportant?
Any ideas?
>What keeps one concerned with loss and gain?
It comes naturally?
People used to living without hope and empowerment are by necessity better at acceptance.
I think the Buddha said that hope causes suffering. But there are two kinds of hope. The kind that gets you out of bed in the morning, and the hope for gain.
The other day I said to a woman selling good white tea how helpful it could be and she said
'Darling, I wake up every morning knowing God loves me. If only you knew how much he loves you.'
'That must be lovely'.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 12, 2013, at 1:26:10
In reply to Re: kindness and sacrifice, posted by sigismund on October 11, 2013, at 19:43:46
> With loss and gain we are back to the famous passage in the Gita with Krishna and Arjuna.
What passage is that? I'm not familiar with the Gita.
> In one of my Peruvian books a curandero was saying 'Cuando pienso en Fitzcarraldo y estos hombres, preferiria ser serpiente'. That's more or less my bottom line.
Ser serpiente y morderlos?
> People used to living without hope and empowerment are by necessity better at acceptance.
>
> SigismundThat makes sense to me. And people used to getting what they want might be expected to be worse at acceptance?
--
> Dr.Bob, you win the prize for thinking up questions which do not appear relevant to anything actually going on here!
>
> TwinleafI appreciate your kindness in giving me a prize. I accept that my questions are unimportant.
Bob
Posted by sigismund on October 12, 2013, at 17:44:45
In reply to Re: kindness and sacrifice, posted by Dr. Bob on October 12, 2013, at 1:26:10
>What passage is that? I'm not familiar with the Gita.
I'm not either but it is mentioned by TS Eliot and Leonard Cohen.
Arjuna is a warrior, Krishna a god (I'm sure I can't do this justice) and a battle is coming. Arjuna has a vision in which he sees mountains of corpses that he has killed (from the future)and he realises that each one is his brother/mother/father/himself and he is dismayed and says so to Krishna: What should I do? And Krishna says something along the lines of 'You will never understand the chain of causation, the strands of karma that lead to the present. Stop concerning yourself with this and do your duty'. This (to me) is a complex idea that could promote the worst things. But many traditions say this in various ways......they would not be arguing for obedience to orders under all circumstances......in Taoism the argument is, at least in part, for efficient action.>Ser serpiente y morderlos?
I hadn't even thought of that, just being embarrassed to be human. Good idea though, better than being used for target practice or used as food for dogs. The Buddhists say it is a great honour to be human which, I feel compelled to say, I don't recall feeling.
>And people used to getting what they want might be expected to be worse at acceptance?
Yes.
I guess it's all about attachment. We need attachment to begin with to grow, then the attachment gets out of hand, and then we are advised to give it up.
Posted by sigismund on October 13, 2013, at 17:00:55
In reply to Re: kindness and sacrifice, posted by sigismund on October 12, 2013, at 17:44:45
There's a great quote at the beginning of "From the Ruins of Empire" (Noel Annan?) which goes something like.......'Europeans have a history written in blood and long to escape it, but for many peoples in the world they wish to enter history for the first time'......something like that.
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