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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 15, 2013, at 11:31:41
Friends,
Here we can discuss outside of the confines of other threads that may limit the content. Some things that I am inviting members here to come on in and discuss are:
A. The aspect as to if there is such a thing as an anti suicide pill or pills
B. If psychiatric drugs increase suicidal thinking, how could a parent be swayed to have their child be given psychiatric drugs if their child is suicidal?
C. The condition that Mr Hsiung has posted here
D. What is meant by "blaming the victim" (or victims)
E. Why there are years of outstanding requests/notifications from me to Mr Hsiung
F. any other relevant topic
Lou
But first, be advised that antidepressants can increase suicidal thinking. So I would like for those interested to go to Google and type in:
[experts say antidepressants cause suicide rather than preventing them]
Posted by SLS on May 15, 2013, at 20:32:55
In reply to Lou's Little Shoppe, posted by Lou Pilder on May 15, 2013, at 11:31:41
> antidepressants cause suicide rather than preventing them
It is unfortunate that some people should feel compelled to confine themselves to polar "either-or" thinking regarding this issue.
Antidepressants, even in young people, prevent more suicides than they provoke. The suicide rates in young people have been increasing since 2003, the year that the black-box warning first appeared on antidepressant labeling. This was demonstrated by the CDC as early as 2007. I don't think cause-and-effect has yet been established, though. One can find conflicting interpretations of this data. Nevertheless, they exist.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Healthday/story?id=4508580&page=1#.UZQ0zcoQtJI
Antidepressants can make some people feel more depressed. This is a negative reaction, to be sure. Sometimes, whereas one antidepressant fails to produce an improvement, another might succeed. Paradoxically, some people actually experience an increase in suicidal ideation early in treatment precisely because the antidepressant begins to work. As anergic vegetative symptoms begin to recede without a commensurate improvement in outlook, one has more mental energy to act on their negative impulses.
Each pediatric case must be evaluated individually. I am not a doctor, but I should think it preferable that psychotherapeutic modalities be explored first before pharmacotherapy in this population.
A more balanced perspective, perhaps?
I haven't come to any firm conclusions regarding the use of antidepressants in young people. If the illness is severe enough, I'm not sure there is any better choice but to use one. I don't doubt that antidepressants affect the immature and developing brain of young people in ways that differ from those of adults. The rate of iatrogenic suicidal ideation in younger people is probably higher. One statistic I saw was 0.2% for placebo versus 0.4% for active drug.
- Scott
Posted by Willful on May 16, 2013, at 0:01:44
In reply to Lou's Little Shoppe, posted by Lou Pilder on May 15, 2013, at 11:31:41
From what I've read recently, while anti-depressants can increase suicidal thinking in some adolescents during the early phases of treatment, in general the suicide rate from anti-depressants is primarily from the older tricylic anti-depressants, whereas where use of SSRIs and other newer ADs is prevalent, the suicide rate has decreased.
I wish I had saved the study that generated this data; it used a state by state (and I think county by county) analysis of suicides by those taking ADs. I read it recently while thinking about responses to some of Lou's claims about extraordinary numbers of deaths from psychiatric medications- numbers which seem to be greatly inflated.
The one area in which one could legitimately question the contribution of psychiatric drugs to premature death and serious health issues is that of second generation anti-psychotics, which are associated with obesity, diabetes, high blood pressure and coronary disease-- all of which seem to lead to a earlier mortality for those who use significant ongoing doses.
I haven't gotten the impression that this is what Lou is concerned about-- but it seems a very real concern that one might want to consider in choosing drugs and dosages.
Willful
Posted by SLS on May 16, 2013, at 0:07:03
In reply to Antidepressants and suicide is not either-or., posted by SLS on May 15, 2013, at 20:32:55
> The rate of iatrogenic suicidal ideation in younger people is probably higher. One statistic I saw was 0.2% for placebo versus 0.4% for active drug.
Sorry...
Correction:
The rates of suicide were 2.0% for placebo and 4.0% for active drug.
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=206656
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 16, 2013, at 0:14:28
In reply to Re: Antidepressants and suicide - Correction, posted by SLS on May 16, 2013, at 0:07:03
> > The rate of iatrogenic suicidal ideation in younger people is probably higher. One statistic I saw was 0.2% for placebo versus 0.4% for active drug.
> Sorry...
>
> Correction:
>
> The rates of suicide were 2.0% for placebo and 4.0% for active drug.
That should be "suicidal ideation" - not "suicide"."The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA), in its review and meta-analysis of 24 placebo-controlled trials assessing use of antidepressant medications among more than 4400 children and adolescents, concluded that these medications pose a 2-fold (4% vs 2%) increased risk for suicidal behavior or suicidal ideation, although no suicides were reported."
> http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=206656
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 16, 2013, at 0:16:40
In reply to Re: Antidepressants and suicide - Corrections, posted by SLS on May 16, 2013, at 0:14:28
Posted by SLS on May 16, 2013, at 0:25:02
In reply to Antidepressants and suicide is not either-or., posted by SLS on May 15, 2013, at 20:32:55
> > antidepressants cause suicide rather than preventing them
> It is unfortunate that some people should feel compelled to confine themselves to polar "either-or" thinking regarding this issue.
I did not mean to refer to Lou Pilder here.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2013, at 9:47:24
In reply to Re: Antidepressants and suicide is not either-or., posted by SLS on May 16, 2013, at 0:25:02
I see now where the thread appeared from on medications was confusing. Phillipa
Posted by Toph on May 16, 2013, at 10:29:45
In reply to Lou's Little Shoppe, posted by Lou Pilder on May 15, 2013, at 11:31:41
There is plenty of scientific evidence that bipolar patients taking lithium have a lower incidence of suicide than other bipolar patients. Whether this is an affect of the drug or some psycho/social factor in patients who take the drug remains unclear.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12720484
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2001/12.13/08-lithium.html
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=177812
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10073393
http://www.healthyplace.com/bipolar-disorder/articles/lithium-and-suicide-risk-in-bipolar-disorder/
Posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 11:16:02
In reply to Re: excellent (nm), posted by Dr. Bob on May 16, 2013, at 0:16:40
Can Scott or other posters cut and paste an excellent response? I think it's a bit much to expect people to spend a great deal of effort to prepare responses to repetitive posts. Would it be ok to give repetitive pre-approved responses?
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 16, 2013, at 11:45:49
In reply to Re: excellent (nm), posted by Dr. Bob on May 16, 2013, at 0:16:40
Frinds,
There is much more to this than what Mr Hsiung or Scott or anyone else has [posted here in this thread. And parents, if you are trying to make a more informed decision as to drug your child in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, I am requesting that you read the following. And be advised that there are numerous prohibitions to me here from Mr hsiuing that prevent me from informing you of facts that I think could mark the difference between your child being alive or dead. It is so easy to persuade the uninformed.
You see, the NIMH and other agencies have ties to the pharmaceutical industry.
Here is an article that I would like interested readers to read if they are considering postingin this thread.
Lou
To see this article, go to Google and type in:
[STAR*D Wars, Bruce E Levine, July 1,2006]
Posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 11:56:40
In reply to Lou's request-itzsoeze, posted by Lou Pilder on May 16, 2013, at 11:45:49
I appreciate that *this* thread was started with you, so you have every right to ask that anyone who wants to participate watch something or read something before they respond.
So, aside from thanking you for making the request, this time, on your own thread, I'll respond no more on this thread since I won't be reading your links.
Posted by SLS on May 16, 2013, at 12:59:41
In reply to Lou's request-itzsoeze, posted by Lou Pilder on May 16, 2013, at 11:45:49
> You see, the NIMH and other agencies have ties to the pharmaceutical industry.
Would you care to describe the nature of, and provide evidence for, the ties that you purport the NIMH to have with the pharmaceutical industry?
Is there anything unethical about the relationship that the NIMH has with the pharmaceutical industry? The NIH shares important information with the rest of the world, including pharmaceutical companies. This is a good thing.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 16, 2013, at 16:47:12
In reply to Lou's request-itzsoeze, posted by Lou Pilder on May 16, 2013, at 11:45:49
> Frinds,
> There is much more to this than what Mr Hsiung or Scott or anyone else has [posted here in this thread. And parents, if you are trying to make a more informed decision as to drug your child in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, I am requesting that you read the following. And be advised that there are numerous prohibitions to me here from Mr hsiuing that prevent me from informing you of facts that I think could mark the difference between your child being alive or dead. It is so easy to persuade the uninformed.
> You see, the NIMH and other agencies have ties to the pharmaceutical industry.
> Here is an article that I would like interested readers to read if they are considering postingin this thread.
> Lou
> To see this article, go to Google and type in:
> [STAR*D Wars, Bruce E Levine, July 1,2006]Friends,
If you are considering posting here, I am requesting that you read the following. To see these, go to Google and type in:
[Psychiatry and the Pharmaceutical Complex, the Alliance]
The first two are the ones that I would like for you to read.
Now you parents that are trying to decide as to drug your child or not in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, there are prohibitions made to me here by Mr Hsiung that if those prohibitions were not made to me here, I think that lives could be saved, addictions and life-ruining conditions could be prevented and you could know facts that could mark the difference between your child being killed by the drugs, if they become drugged in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, or having your child live. Be advised that I know how these drugs cause children (and adults) to go into a mind-altered state to kill themselves and/or others and even commit mass-murder. And most of all, when all the chips fall, I wish you life.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 16, 2013, at 17:36:05
In reply to Lou's request-eyewshewlyph, posted by Lou Pilder on May 16, 2013, at 16:47:12
> > Frinds,
> > There is much more to this than what Mr Hsiung or Scott or anyone else has [posted here in this thread. And parents, if you are trying to make a more informed decision as to drug your child in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, I am requesting that you read the following. And be advised that there are numerous prohibitions to me here from Mr hsiuing that prevent me from informing you of facts that I think could mark the difference between your child being alive or dead. It is so easy to persuade the uninformed.
> > You see, the NIMH and other agencies have ties to the pharmaceutical industry.
> > Here is an article that I would like interested readers to read if they are considering postingin this thread.
> > Lou
> > To see this article, go to Google and type in:
> > [STAR*D Wars, Bruce E Levine, July 1,2006]
>
> Friends,
> If you are considering posting here, I am requesting that you read the following. To see these, go to Google and type in:
> [Psychiatry and the Pharmaceutical Complex, the Alliance]
> The first two are the ones that I would like for you to read.
> Now you parents that are trying to decide as to drug your child or not in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, there are prohibitions made to me here by Mr Hsiung that if those prohibitions were not made to me here, I think that lives could be saved, addictions and life-ruining conditions could be prevented and you could know facts that could mark the difference between your child being killed by the drugs, if they become drugged in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, or having your child live. Be advised that I know how these drugs cause children (and adults) to go into a mind-altered state to kill themselves and/or others and even commit mass-murder. And most of all, when all the chips fall, I wish you life.
> LouFRiends,
If you are considering being a discussant in this thread or parallel thread, I am requesting that you view the following.
If you are a parent, and are trying to make a more-informed decision as to drug your child or not in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, be advised that there are facts that I am prohibited by Mr Hsiung from posting here that I think could mark the difference between your child being alive with you or in their grave. And to those that post here advocating to take mind-altering drugs in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, be advised that I am prohibited from posting here what the God that I give service and worship to will do to (redacted by respondent)
Lou
http://www.cchrint.org/videos/drugs/drugging-our-children-side-effects
Posted by SLS on May 16, 2013, at 23:29:55
In reply to The NIMH and its ties., posted by SLS on May 16, 2013, at 12:59:41
> > > You see, the NIMH and other agencies have ties to the pharmaceutical industry.
> > Would you care to describe the nature of, and provide evidence for, the ties that you purport the NIMH to have with the pharmaceutical industry?
> [Psychiatry and the Pharmaceutical Complex, the Alliance]
This article insinuates corruption on the part of the NIH, yet fails to provide evidence of corrupt affiliations and behaviors. It also declares guilt by association.Is anyone willing to state that the motives of the NIH when issuing grants is to divert funds to produce wealth in the pharmaceutical industry? Is there any evidence of the NIH intentionally manufacturing false data to further the accumulation of wealth by the pharmaceutical industry?
I don't have statistics handy, but I know that the number of grants issued by the NIMH and other neuroscience-oriented NIH institutes is very large. At worst, the NIH sometimes issues grants to institutions that abuse its funds and operate unethically. It is impossible to produce oversight before the fact.
It is a fallacious argument that affiliation equates to corruption. Just because an investigator gives lectures to pharmaceutical companies and acts as a consultant does not indicate de facto corruption. I do not subscribe to the conspiracy theory portrayed by this article.
> > The NIH shares important information with the rest of the world, including pharmaceutical companies. This is a good thing.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 17, 2013, at 2:18:06
In reply to Re: excellent » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 11:16:02
> Can Scott or other posters cut and paste an excellent response?
GMTA! A reassuring statement could be developed and reused:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130109/msgs/1043322.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130109/msgs/1043449.htmlBob
Posted by Willful on May 18, 2013, at 13:10:51
In reply to Lou's request-, posted by Lou Pilder on May 16, 2013, at 17:36:05
This is what wikipedia says about the Citizens Commission on Human Rights:
~~~~
The Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR) is a Scientology front group which campaigns against psychiatry and psychiatrists.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9] It was established in 1969 by the Church of Scientology and psychiatrist Thomas Szasz,[10][11][12] and is headquartered in Los Angeles, California.[13]The organization holds that mental illness is not a medical disease, and that the use of psychiatric medication is a destructive and fraudulent practice.[14] CCHR follows the Scientology doctrine that psychiatrists ('psychs') are the primary cause of evil in society:[15][16]
~~~
So the information on their website should be read in view of the basic beliefs that inform it.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 18, 2013, at 15:29:19
In reply to Lou's request-, posted by Lou Pilder on May 16, 2013, at 17:36:05
> > > Frinds,
> > > There is much more to this than what Mr Hsiung or Scott or anyone else has [posted here in this thread. And parents, if you are trying to make a more informed decision as to drug your child in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, I am requesting that you read the following. And be advised that there are numerous prohibitions to me here from Mr hsiuing that prevent me from informing you of facts that I think could mark the difference between your child being alive or dead. It is so easy to persuade the uninformed.
> > > You see, the NIMH and other agencies have ties to the pharmaceutical industry.
> > > Here is an article that I would like interested readers to read if they are considering postingin this thread.
> > > Lou
> > > To see this article, go to Google and type in:
> > > [STAR*D Wars, Bruce E Levine, July 1,2006]
> >
> > Friends,
> > If you are considering posting here, I am requesting that you read the following. To see these, go to Google and type in:
> > [Psychiatry and the Pharmaceutical Complex, the Alliance]
> > The first two are the ones that I would like for you to read.
> > Now you parents that are trying to decide as to drug your child or not in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, there are prohibitions made to me here by Mr Hsiung that if those prohibitions were not made to me here, I think that lives could be saved, addictions and life-ruining conditions could be prevented and you could know facts that could mark the difference between your child being killed by the drugs, if they become drugged in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, or having your child live. Be advised that I know how these drugs cause children (and adults) to go into a mind-altered state to kill themselves and/or others and even commit mass-murder. And most of all, when all the chips fall, I wish you life.
> > Lou
>
> FRiends,
> If you are considering being a discussant in this thread or parallel thread, I am requesting that you view the following.
> If you are a parent, and are trying to make a more-informed decision as to drug your child or not in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, be advised that there are facts that I am prohibited by Mr Hsiung from posting here that I think could mark the difference between your child being alive with you or in their grave. And to those that post here advocating to take mind-altering drugs in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor, be advised that I am prohibited from posting here what the God that I give service and worship to will do to (redacted by respondent)
> Lou
> http://www.cchrint.org/videos/drugs/drugging-our-children-side-effectsFriends,
If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I am requesting that you view the following.
Lou
To view this video:
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in:
[youtube,6NeNT7jdkJA]
Posted by sigismund on May 18, 2013, at 16:38:30
In reply to Re: Lou's request-, posted by Willful on May 18, 2013, at 13:10:51
Yeah, but they were good at Chelmsford in Australia. God knows how many people died there, not to speak of the damage,from psyciatric arrogance. There was a royal commission which went on for years. It was outrageous.
This is the end of the thread.
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