![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by hyperfocus on January 9, 2013, at 12:11:26
Any relationship where you are repeatedly made to feel bad about yourself and repeatedly accused of false things with no justification is an abusive relationship. Over the past few years myself and other posters have been abused by being repeatedly accused of being prejudiced, bigoted, racist, stigmatizing and scapegoating other posters, fostering hate against others, hiding the truth about psychiatric drugs, poisoning and endangering our own children, disinformation, indoctrination, and any number of very upsetting things. Furthermore it is also abuse when attempts to defend oneself from these accusations or requests to provide some evidence or rationale for such allegations are met with silence, logical fallacies, and attempts to quote posts out of context to justify these allegations. The last tactic in particular is particularly insidious and shows a level of sophistication that belies any belief that this behavior is not deliberate.
The effects of abuse are subtle and cumulative -- one does not feel the true effects after only one abusive episode. There are posters who do not post as much or have stopped posting all together because of abusive behavior on PsychoBabble. It makes me exceedingly angry that people are being denied support and education and having their conditions worsened because of abusive behavior here. No true member of an online community devoted to support and education makes all efforts to exclude and discourage others from posting.
I do not know of any mental illness that directly causes one to deliberately and repeatedly abuse others, or to engage in an ongoing deliberate campaign to sow discord in this community and foster enmity between individual posters. All of us suffer from anger, anxiety, hatred, guilt, self-loathing, and these things unfortunately will lead us to abuse others at some point in our lives -- I know I have. But I believe there is a clear distinction between a person who abuses others because they do not fully understand how their behavior is seen by and affects others, and a person who knowingly continues with behavior that is designed to hurt and make others feel put down and cause division and strife in a community. From a legal and administrative perspective having a mental illness cannot justify a poster abusing others and attempting to damage the community they claim to be part of.
I'm asking posters on PB for the sake of their own mental health and for the good of the community to not to continue to engage with any poster who is being abusive here. If you see a post from a poster who is known to be trolling the community then the best course of action is to just not read it, or at the very least not reply to such a post until the poster at least acknowledges their behavior. No set of forum rules will ever be enough to stop the abusive behavior pursued by posters who are intent on abusing others -- they will merely find a way to do it that fits inside the rules. I find it to be extremely unfair that people will pursue their own agendas against others who are sick and vulnerable, but that is just how the world is -- all one can do is try to protect oneself and others.
The reason I post on PB is that people here are kind, compassionate, fair-minded, always seeking truth, quick to admit wrong, always wanting to learn new things and new viewpoints, always wanting to share their knowledge, always wanting to help others. But I think all of us at this stage of our lives realize that such instincts can be used to hurt us by people who do not see the world the way we do. I cannot provide help and support and education to someone who does not want help and support and education from me and even less so to somebody who attempts to deliberately deny others help and support and education.Maxime was a poster who left here because of what I can only term 'admin drama'. It pains me to think of others who give up PB as a support means because they don't feel a sense of complete safety posting here. We all hurt other posters in some way, violate their trust or privacy, have disagreements, falling outs, fail to see the other side, become too easily triggered and rush to post things we would not say given some thought. But like I said there is a difference between these things and deliberate abuse. And whereas the former things will always happen, abuse is something that should never happen in a place like this.
Posted by SLS on January 9, 2013, at 13:07:17
In reply to Abuse of posters, posted by hyperfocus on January 9, 2013, at 12:11:26
Thank you for taking the time to write such an eloquent and, in my mind, accurate portrayal of abuse on Psycho-Babble. I would never have realized that this was abuse had you not posted anything.
You are right about the inadvertent encouragement of abuse by paying attention to the abuser and attempting to engage in behaviors to confront him. Yes, I do believe that some people amuse themselves by upsetting the proceedings of an Internet forum and injuring a community. It angers me when I see others - including myself - participate in the disruption. I feel duped, and the abuser gets what he wants - a sense of significance.
For whatever reason, I seem to be unhurt by most of what I would call abuse and ill-will. However, I tend to confront abuse when I think I see that it is hurting others. Perhaps this is a bad habit of mine. Nobody has yet asked me to rescue them. It is frustrating, though, to sit back and do nothing. I guess I feel that this would be an abdication of social responsibility, even though I understand that confrontation of the abuser often "feeds the troll".
I'll need to think about this stuff some more.
I am so glad that you found a way to confront the abuse without confronting the abusers. I would never have been able to do this as well as you have. Again, thank you.
Gosh, you write well!
By the way, you make a good role-model.
- Scott
Posted by sigismund on January 9, 2013, at 14:46:55
In reply to Abuse of posters, posted by hyperfocus on January 9, 2013, at 12:11:26
>Maxime was a poster who left here because of what I can only term 'admin drama'. It pains me to think of others who give up PB as a support means because they don't feel a sense of complete safety posting here. We all hurt other posters in some way, violate their trust or privacy, have disagreements, falling outs, fail to see the other side, become too easily triggered and rush to post things we would not say given some thought. But like I said there is a difference between these things and deliberate abuse. And whereas the former things will always happen, abuse is something that should never happen in a place like this.
Yes, I was thinking of that post of hers from back then in which she said 'I think this place *should* die'.
Posted by sigismund on January 9, 2013, at 14:54:30
In reply to Re: Abuse of posters » hyperfocus, posted by sigismund on January 9, 2013, at 14:46:55
It's not from as late as I had thought it might be.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101201/msgs/973494.html
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 9, 2013, at 14:57:10
In reply to Abuse of posters, posted by hyperfocus on January 9, 2013, at 12:11:26
> Any relationship where you are repeatedly made to feel bad about yourself and repeatedly accused of false things with no justification is an abusive relationship. Over the past few years myself and other posters have been abused by being repeatedly accused of being prejudiced, bigoted, racist, stigmatizing and scapegoating other posters, fostering hate against others, hiding the truth about psychiatric drugs, poisoning and endangering our own children, disinformation, indoctrination, and any number of very upsetting things. Furthermore it is also abuse when attempts to defend oneself from these accusations or requests to provide some evidence or rationale for such allegations are met with silence, logical fallacies, and attempts to quote posts out of context to justify these allegations. The last tactic in particular is particularly insidious and shows a level of sophistication that belies any belief that this behavior is not deliberate.
>
> The effects of abuse are subtle and cumulative -- one does not feel the true effects after only one abusive episode. There are posters who do not post as much or have stopped posting all together because of abusive behavior on PsychoBabble. It makes me exceedingly angry that people are being denied support and education and having their conditions worsened because of abusive behavior here. No true member of an online community devoted to support and education makes all efforts to exclude and discourage others from posting.
>
> I do not know of any mental illness that directly causes one to deliberately and repeatedly abuse others, or to engage in an ongoing deliberate campaign to sow discord in this community and foster enmity between individual posters. All of us suffer from anger, anxiety, hatred, guilt, self-loathing, and these things unfortunately will lead us to abuse others at some point in our lives -- I know I have. But I believe there is a clear distinction between a person who abuses others because they do not fully understand how their behavior is seen by and affects others, and a person who knowingly continues with behavior that is designed to hurt and make others feel put down and cause division and strife in a community. From a legal and administrative perspective having a mental illness cannot justify a poster abusing others and attempting to damage the community they claim to be part of.
>
>
> I'm asking posters on PB for the sake of their own mental health and for the good of the community to not to continue to engage with any poster who is being abusive here. If you see a post from a poster who is known to be trolling the community then the best course of action is to just not read it, or at the very least not reply to such a post until the poster at least acknowledges their behavior. No set of forum rules will ever be enough to stop the abusive behavior pursued by posters who are intent on abusing others -- they will merely find a way to do it that fits inside the rules. I find it to be extremely unfair that people will pursue their own agendas against others who are sick and vulnerable, but that is just how the world is -- all one can do is try to protect oneself and others.
>
>
> The reason I post on PB is that people here are kind, compassionate, fair-minded, always seeking truth, quick to admit wrong, always wanting to learn new things and new viewpoints, always wanting to share their knowledge, always wanting to help others. But I think all of us at this stage of our lives realize that such instincts can be used to hurt us by people who do not see the world the way we do. I cannot provide help and support and education to someone who does not want help and support and education from me and even less so to somebody who attempts to deliberately deny others help and support and education.
>
> Maxime was a poster who left here because of what I can only term 'admin drama'. It pains me to think of others who give up PB as a support means because they don't feel a sense of complete safety posting here. We all hurt other posters in some way, violate their trust or privacy, have disagreements, falling outs, fail to see the other side, become too easily triggered and rush to post things we would not say given some thought. But like I said there is a difference between these things and deliberate abuse. And whereas the former things will always happen, abuse is something that should never happen in a place like this.Friends,
When you read the aove post, be not deceived. For it is the poster that writes the post that is posting hate and hatred toward the Jews here. As a Jew here, it is my duty to use my might to stop the hate from being considered to be supportive. For as Mr Hsiung states that he does what will be good for this community as a whole, I say to you that there has never been a community where antisemitism being allowed by the state has made that community "good".
Here is the post by the innitiator of this thread that Mr Hsiung is allowing to stand, allowing the hatred of the centuries against Jews to flame the members here against the Jews and me as a Jew here. But I say to you that the God that I give service and worship to has made with me a covenant that He will never break. And I pity those here that want to stop me from allowing antisemitism to stand here.
Here is a link to a post that the innitiator of this thread posted here that arouses antisemitic feelings and to this day it is not only allowed to stand, but the bystanders have not tried to stop it either.
To see the hatred toward the Jews posted by the member that posted this here:Look at the last full paragraph and see the statement:
[...made to suffer a horrible death by {them}...]
The statement is allowed so others can think of it as being supportive, civil, and will be good for this community as whole. Good for the community as a whole? Do you know who else said that? And you ask me where the antisemitism is here?
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20101230/msgs/1004107.html
Posted by sigismund on January 9, 2013, at 14:59:14
In reply to Re: Abuse of posters, posted by sigismund on January 9, 2013, at 14:54:30
>All this bickering back and forth is clearly leading nowhere fast.
I kind of like that.
Posted by sigismund on January 9, 2013, at 16:07:53
In reply to Re: Abuse of posters, posted by sigismund on January 9, 2013, at 14:59:14
I only posted in this thread because I was anxious about posting in the thread above.
Hope that makes my posts a little clearer.
Posted by Emme_V2 on January 9, 2013, at 20:59:23
In reply to Abuse of posters, posted by hyperfocus on January 9, 2013, at 12:11:26
Hyperfocus,
I just want to say thank you so much for doing this. You are a superb writer.
emme
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 10, 2013, at 14:39:39
In reply to Re: Abuse of posters » hyperfocus, posted by Emme_V2 on January 9, 2013, at 20:59:23
> Hyperfocus,
>
> I just want to say thank you so much for doing this. You are a superb writer.
>
> emmeemme,
You wrote,[...thank you..for doing this...].
I am unsure as to what you want the readers to think by what you wrote. If you could post aswers here to the following, then I could have the opportunity to repsond to whatever you write.
A. What is it in particular that you are thanking the poster for?
B. Why are you thanking the poster for whatever it is?
C.
Lou
Posted by Emme_V2 on January 10, 2013, at 16:47:41
In reply to Lou's request-wht? » Emme_V2, posted by Lou Pilder on January 10, 2013, at 14:39:39
> > Hyperfocus,
> >
> > I just want to say thank you so much for doing this. You are a superb writer.
> >
> > emme
>
> emme,
> You wrote,[...thank you..for doing this...].
> I am unsure as to what you want the readers to think by what you wrote. If you could post aswers here to the following, then I could have the opportunity to repsond to whatever you write.
> A. What is it in particular that you are thanking the poster for?
> B. Why are you thanking the poster for whatever it is?
> C.
> LouHi Lou,
Thanks for writing. I'm afraid, however, that I'm not particularly interesting in answering questions or otherwise responding.
Have a peaceful day.
emme
Posted by sigismund on January 10, 2013, at 16:51:47
In reply to Lou's request-wht? » Emme_V2, posted by Lou Pilder on January 10, 2013, at 14:39:39
So much memory, really old grudges, settling scores, team sports.
Not worth it. It's so easy to inflame things. Perhaps this will do it?
Everything makes everything worse. Same dynamics as a bad trip, it feels to me.
When that happens the solution is to stop, watch and accept.
Posted by sigismund on January 10, 2013, at 17:08:30
In reply to Back the the beginning, posted by sigismund on January 10, 2013, at 16:51:47
That is what comes from knowing each other.
Posted by Beckett on January 10, 2013, at 18:27:36
In reply to Re: Back the the beginning » sigismund, posted by sigismund on January 10, 2013, at 17:08:30
> That is what comes from knowing each other.
Yes. Sometimes I find it almost unbearable, truly knowing people, I am embarrassed to admit.
Posted by Beckett on January 10, 2013, at 18:31:21
In reply to Back the the beginning, posted by sigismund on January 10, 2013, at 16:51:47
Though to truly know someone would make more space to watch and accept.
Posted by sigismund on January 10, 2013, at 19:22:35
In reply to Re: Back the the beginning, posted by Beckett on January 10, 2013, at 18:27:36
Space, matter, life, consciousness and humanity might all be considered disasters..
After all God himself regretted creation once.
I enjoyed something in a book by Saramago recently. Perhaps it was "The Elephant's Journey", where he says something like....
'So it just goes to show there can be progress and in the right direction too.'
He wrote it as an old man, full of kindness and scepticism.
Posted by sigismund on January 10, 2013, at 19:23:22
In reply to Re: Back the the beginning, posted by sigismund on January 10, 2013, at 19:22:35
Not to speak of time.
Posted by sigismund on January 10, 2013, at 19:29:09
In reply to Abuse of posters, posted by hyperfocus on January 9, 2013, at 12:11:26
I'm sorry if you feel I have hijacked your thread. I was responding to this
>Maxime was a poster who left here because of what I can only term 'admin drama'.
and didn't read your post well.
But the way that offence seems to escalate, as in some recent threads, seems so notable and regrettable.
I remember you posting on Religion. That is what I meant about memory.
We should be kinder and better to each other than we often are.
Posted by hyperfocus on January 11, 2013, at 0:58:32
In reply to Re: Abuse of posters » hyperfocus, posted by SLS on January 9, 2013, at 13:07:17
> Thank you for taking the time to write
You're welcome> It is frustrating, though, to sit back and do nothing.
For me it's about physics rather than morality. Reading posts takes energy, replying to posts even more energy. Energy is a precious scarce resource for all of us. When you make a post on admin you could have used that energy to reply to a poster on meds. This is why I don't get involved with admin stuff anymore. A lot of the time reading threads on admin drains me and makes me want nothing to do with PB for the rest of the day. I think a lot of posters feel the same way and this is what abuse does to a community.You can't help everybody and you especially can't control what other people do. If you have to energy to make a post it would probably be better spent on meds.
> Gosh, you write well!
So do you.> By the way, you make a good role-model.
I mostly follow your example here.
Posted by Solstice on January 20, 2013, at 4:36:38
In reply to Re: Abuse of posters » hyperfocus, posted by SLS on January 9, 2013, at 13:07:17
>
> However, I tend to confront abuse when I think I see that it is hurting others. Perhaps this is a bad habit of mine. Nobody has yet asked me to rescue them. It is frustrating, though, to sit back and do nothing. I guess I feel that this would be an abdication of social responsibility, even though I understand that confrontation of the abuser often "feeds the troll".
>
> I'll need to think about this stuff some more.Scott - while I don't disagree with the OP's message, I want you to know that when you have intervened on my behalf in the past, it was a powerful experience... made me feel sturdier.. sucked the sting out of the abusive behavior coming toward me. So maybe it's not an either/or. Maybe it's both. One's not 'wrong' and the other 'right.' The OP's style can be very, very effective. But your heart-driven eloquent confrontations that feel protective to the poster being targeted are equally effective. At least they were for me.
Solstice
Posted by SLS on January 21, 2013, at 2:04:52
In reply to Re: Abuse of posters » SLS, posted by Solstice on January 20, 2013, at 4:36:38
Hi Solstice.
> Scott - while I don't disagree with the OP's message, I want you to know that when you have intervened on my behalf in the past, it was a powerful experience... made me feel sturdier.. sucked the sting out of the abusive behavior coming toward me. So maybe it's not an either/or. Maybe it's both. One's not 'wrong' and the other 'right.' The OP's style can be very, very effective. But your heart-driven eloquent confrontations that feel protective to the poster being targeted are equally effective. At least they were for me.
>
> SolsticeI would like to extend to you my heart-felt appreciation for your affirmations of me. While I am sure that my "style" is derided by many, it is truly important to me to know that it is not universally so.
Thank you.
- Scott
Posted by Solstice on January 21, 2013, at 23:43:08
In reply to Re: Abuse of posters » Solstice, posted by SLS on January 21, 2013, at 2:04:52
> Hi Solstice.
>
> > Scott - while I don't disagree with the OP's message, I want you to know that when you have intervened on my behalf in the past, it was a powerful experience... made me feel sturdier.. sucked the sting out of the abusive behavior coming toward me. So maybe it's not an either/or. Maybe it's both. One's not 'wrong' and the other 'right.' The OP's style can be very, very effective. But your heart-driven eloquent confrontations that feel protective to the poster being targeted are equally effective. At least they were for me.
> >
> > Solstice
>
> I would like to extend to you my heart-felt appreciation for your affirmations of me. While I am sure that my "style" is derided by many, it is truly important to me to know that it is not universally so.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> - Scott
>derided by many? Pro'ly closer to "some" or maybe even "a few."
Your 'style' of confronting abusive/bullying behavior tends to be mater-of-fact, balanced, often even gracious toward the offender. Your impatience shows only when the offender is persistently arrogant and escalates. With respect to silence vs sanding up and speaking.... what's the old Edmund Burke line? "All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win... is for enough good men to do nothing."
When those on the sidelines don't speak up, it gives bullies latitude... makes them think they have an approving audience. Silence has its place.. but so does speaking up.
Solstice
Posted by SLS on January 22, 2013, at 3:46:58
In reply to Re: Abuse of posters, posted by Solstice on January 21, 2013, at 23:43:08
> > > Scott - while I don't disagree with the OP's message, I want you to know that when you have intervened on my behalf in the past, it was a powerful experience... made me feel sturdier.. sucked the sting out of the abusive behavior coming toward me. So maybe it's not an either/or. Maybe it's both. One's not 'wrong' and the other 'right.' The OP's style can be very, very effective. But your heart-driven eloquent confrontations that feel protective to the poster being targeted are equally effective. At least they were for me.
> > I would like to extend to you my heart-felt appreciation for your affirmations of me. While I am sure that my "style" is derided by many, it is truly important to me to know that it is not universally so.
> >
> derided by many? Pro'ly closer to "some" or maybe even "a few."
>
> Your 'style' of confronting abusive/bullying behavior tends to be mater-of-fact, balanced, often even gracious toward the offender.Thanks.
I am trying to be more deliberative and less impulsive in my posting behaviour.
> Your impatience shows only when the offender is persistently arrogant and escalates.
That's a good observation. I have always thought that arrogance and ignorance makes for a lethal combination. Even if outcomes are not so dramatic, people with these traits carry negative energy and cynicism along with them where ever they go. They can suck the positive energy out of a room with a single word. Man, that pisses me off.
> With respect to silence vs sanding up and speaking....
>
> what's the old Edmund Burke line? "All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win... is for enough good men to do nothing.":-)
Good one.
You make a pretty good antidepressant! You brought a smile to my face and a boost to my self-esteem. Thank you.
Be well.
- Scott
This is the end of the thread.
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