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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 32. Go back in thread:
Posted by MAxime on January 9, 2011, at 22:34:57
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » BayLeaf, posted by SLS on January 9, 2011, at 10:04:40
>
> Let us presume the innocence of all individuals. The issues that have been uncovered by posting events are still worth talking about now that they are visible. Let everyone consider their own behaviors in private.
>
> Anyway, that is how I feel about things right now.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
>I think, and Scott can correct me if I am wrong, but I interpreted when he said "Let everyone consider their own behaviors in private." That he meant everyone should reflect upon their behaviours as they relate to the subject at hand. To me it sounded like he didn't want another thread about accusations etc. Smart idea.
Posted by BayLeaf on January 9, 2011, at 22:56:42
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » SLS, posted by MAxime on January 9, 2011, at 22:34:57
This was a thread about an apology. That's all it was. If it's being misunderstood in some way, I'm not sure how that's happening. It's not anything but what it seems - an apology.
I'm very confused about the word "accusations". I'm bummed that even this simple thing has become misconstrued. It was I'M SORRY. That's it. Ta Da!
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2011, at 5:01:03
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or, posted by BayLeaf on January 9, 2011, at 22:13:20
> "Let everyone consider their own behaviors in private."
>
> I posted this publicly since my other posts were public. Would it be ok to post negative comments publicly, then apologize privately? That seems insincere to me. I realize that you want to take the poster out of the above discussion, but geesh....this is a separate thread for a separate reason.???
I did not say that two or more people should interact in private.
Try again. You'll get it eventually.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2011, at 5:02:51
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » SLS, posted by MAxime on January 9, 2011, at 22:34:57
>
>
> >
> > Let us presume the innocence of all individuals. The issues that have been uncovered by posting events are still worth talking about now that they are visible. Let everyone consider their own behaviors in private.
> >
> > Anyway, that is how I feel about things right now.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
> >
> >
> >
>
> I think, and Scott can correct me if I am wrong, but I interpreted when he said "Let everyone consider their own behaviors in private." That he meant everyone should reflect upon their behaviours as they relate to the subject at hand. To me it sounded like he didn't want another thread about accusations etc. Smart idea.
>Yes. You got it.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2011, at 5:11:53
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » MAxime, posted by BayLeaf on January 9, 2011, at 22:56:42
> This was a thread about an apology. That's all it was.
Bayleaf, I guess I misinterpreted your intended conveyance. This is often the case with me.
I'll reread your initial post for the sake of my illumination.
Nope. Don't see it.
If you want to apologize to someone and have that be the only contribution to a thread, perhaps you could specify that in your post preambles. Even if you do such, I guess you ought to prepare in the future to expect non-compliance to your requests for ownership of a thread. Courtesy would be a more effective strategy for such a request... Geesh!
- Scott
Posted by europerep on January 10, 2011, at 11:15:54
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » BayLeaf, posted by SLS on January 9, 2011, at 10:04:40
> I agree that it is not productive to cast dispersions or direct accusations towards a specific person, despite the understanding that it might indeed be that person who behaved in a way that is now being deliberated.
>Uhhh, yeah.. I do and always will consider myself to be a visitor on this forum, so I guess it's not up to me to discuss how exactly the forum and its moderation is supposed to work, but I dare to say that, seeing the whole admin board here, (a) the current way of doing things doesn't work and (b) it doesn't really surprise me. Instead of calling people out on misbehavior, there's discussions about whether or not posts are accusatory, whether "accusations" are productive, etc. etc. I think that, first and foremost, this hyper-deliberation of the smallest things is not productive, while larger issues - such as Maxime's problems with other posters - are basically ignored.
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2011, at 13:12:22
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » SLS, posted by europerep on January 10, 2011, at 11:15:54
> Uhhh, yeah..
Huh? Isn't that the type of verbiage that leads to adversarial posturing and drama? Uhhh, yeah..
> I do and always will consider myself to be a visitor on this forum,
Aren't we all visitors?
> so I guess it's not up to me to discuss how exactly the forum and its moderation is supposed to work,
Who is it up to?
> but I dare to say that, seeing the whole admin board here, (a) the current way of doing things doesn't work...
With great sadness, I must agree with you.
> and (b) it doesn't really surprise me.
Nor does it surprise me. Some people saw the inevitability of the demise of Psycho-Babble once its owner devised a set of mechanisms to judge and punish people during the advent of this change in dynamics.
> Instead of calling people out on misbehavior,
Is it a good thing to call people out on misbehavior? What exactly would constitute the misbehavior that is currently being discussed? Who is to judge a person to be guilty of misbehavior? What happens to someone who is called out on misbehavior who has not misbehaved?
> there's discussions about whether or not posts are accusatory, whether "accusations" are productive, etc. etc.
> I think that, first and foremost, this hyper-deliberation of the smallest things is not productive, while larger issues - such as Maxime's problems with other posters - are basically ignored.
I guess the size of the problem is in the mind of the sufferer. I think your way would hurt people by belittling their feelings and judging who should be called out on any given event or issue. Do you have anyone in mind who you think should be called out because of their misbehavior? Let's take me for example. It is not beyond conception that you should find something I did to qualify as misbehavior. What did I do wrong and how would you redress this wrong?
Dr. Bob is alive. His website is dead. I blame him for instituting his system of enforced conduct for its death. I don't find anything wrong with the concept of website moderation. I do have a problem with Dr. Bob's concept of website moderation. It can chase away good people and smother the equally good people who remain.
I am angry, tired, and disgusted with this place. Yet, I only know of one way to save it. Scrap it. Start over. Let people interact without moderation of any kind. Let's see just how crappy we can be with one another. This is happening here anyway, despite rules of civility. Let people go nuts here for a little while. Let us see how we hurt each other without the intervention of Dr. Bob. At the same time, let us see if and how the posting community processes its own issues. Will it become self-moderating through the instrument of peer pressure? I believe that this is a possibility. In my recollection, the most vibrant time for Psycho-Babble was before the rules of civility were formulated and implemented.
Yuck.
- Scott
Posted by europerep on January 10, 2011, at 13:49:08
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » europerep, posted by SLS on January 10, 2011, at 13:12:22
>
> Huh? Isn't that the type of verbiage that leads to adversarial posturing and drama? Uhhh, yeah..
>Personally, I don't think so. I could have said "I strongly disagree", if that makes any difference...
>
> Aren't we all visitors?
>It depends on everyone's own perception of course, but I do think there are "members" and "visitors"...
>
> Who is it up to?
>I would say, members.
>
> Nor does it surprise me. Some people saw the inevitability of the demise of Psycho-Babble once its owner devised a set of mechanisms to judge and punish people during the advent of this change in dynamics.
>I could imagine that these people are right, but it's not just "the rules", or "the system", but also how individuals behave within it.
>
> Is it a good thing to call people out on misbehavior? What exactly would constitute the misbehavior that is currently being discussed? Who is to judge a person to be guilty of misbehavior? What happens to someone who is called out on misbehavior who has not misbehaved?
>I *knew* that that would be the answer. Does this forum really want to reinvent the wheel and put up an own social code of morally acceptable behavior?
Wherever there is misbehavior, there must be proof of course. That goes without saying I think.
>
> I guess the size of the problem is in the mind of the sufferer. I think your way would hurt people by belittling their feelings and judging who should be called out on any given event or issue.
>Well, someone has to be the judge, and that's usually what moderators are for. If they are too harsh, complaints will accumulate and will give the administrator opportunity to think about whether a moderator is judging too severely.
I just don't see the point in this haggling over the tiniest definitions, conceptions, whatever.
Posted by obsidian on January 10, 2011, at 21:36:53
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » europerep, posted by SLS on January 10, 2011, at 13:12:22
Yeah, let's just go nuts!!
It honestly does sound appealing. I also think that there'd be a lot of us who couldn't handle a greater amount of free expression. So you either adapt or you go, it depends on how important it is. No one then will protect you but we all can do that for ourselves ultimately.
I guess.
Posted by SLS on January 11, 2011, at 5:45:42
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or, posted by obsidian on January 10, 2011, at 21:36:53
> Yeah, let's just go nuts!!
> It honestly does sound appealing. I also think that there'd be a lot of us who couldn't handle a greater amount of free expression. So you either adapt or you go, it depends on how important it is. No one then will protect you but we all can do that for ourselves ultimately.
> I guess.When there was absolutely no moderation at all, there was very little incivility (for lack of a more relevant term). It is an empirical observation of mine that this place very rarely saw posts of the type that now appear regularly on the Administration board. Psycho-Babble has become the Administration board. This is indeed a sick website.
I would love to see how this website would evolve were the Administration board to disappear along with the current application of a stoic system of warnings and blocks for speech that is generally adult so that we need not be treated like children by the moderator. Maybe the Administration board should be renamed "Mayhem", and allow people a forum to slam each other, although one could make an argument that mayhem is what is really going on here. I believe Dr. Bob is ultimately the trigger for this outpouring of negative thinking and speech.
I imagine there would be a period immediate to the disappearance of moderation in which people might go nuts, but I would make no guarantee that this would happen. Another empirical observation of mine is that participation has come to a virtual halt as the rate of attrition has accelerated compared to the entrance of new posters. This website has died despite the establishment of a milieu of moderation that many have come to believe is protective of all. If you will take notice, the majority of the people who have left recently have cited their compromised mental health as the reason they left. This website is sick and it makes people sick.
Ironically, this website is the victim of an attempt to inoculate it from victimization.
I did not come here to sit as a student of communication and etiquette. I came here to become a student of the phenomenology of crushing mental illnesses for the sake of pursuing treatments that work to provide me with relief from pain and recover societal functionality.
I would rather see some form of moderation that involves occasional opining and peer pressure rather than rigid autocracy.
I am angry and disgusted. Still, I would rather see Psycho-Babble return to a functional, vibrant, attractive, and stimulating forum to discuss mental health. Perhaps others can make suggestions for how to phase-out the current dysfunctional moderation and enable a more relevant and healthier one.
- Scott
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 11, 2011, at 17:29:42
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » obsidian, posted by SLS on January 11, 2011, at 5:45:42
>Perhaps others can make suggestions for how to phase-out the current dysfunctional moderation and enable a more relevant and healthier one.
Perhaps we ought to get rid of the admin board? Any posts which are highly unpleasant or abusive could simply be deleted by Dr. Bob. Otherwise, let everyone get on with it.
Posted by SLS on January 11, 2011, at 18:46:02
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » SLS, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 11, 2011, at 17:29:42
> >Perhaps others can make suggestions for how to phase-out the current dysfunctional moderation and enable a more relevant and healthier one.
> Perhaps we ought to get rid of the admin board? Any posts which are highly unpleasant or abusive could simply be deleted by Dr. Bob. Otherwise, let everyone get on with it.
I don't know what the entire solution is, but part of it will require the recognition and acknowledgment of the disease-state of the website. If Dr. Bob does not see the disease, he will never address the need for change.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 11, 2011, at 19:02:15
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » ed_uk2010, posted by SLS on January 11, 2011, at 18:46:02
> > >Perhaps others can make suggestions for how to phase-out the current dysfunctional moderation and enable a more relevant and healthier one.
>
> > Perhaps we ought to get rid of the admin board? Any posts which are highly unpleasant or abusive could simply be deleted by Dr. Bob. Otherwise, let everyone get on with it.
>
> I don't know what the entire solution is, but part of it will require the recognition and acknowledgment of the disease-state of the website. If Dr. Bob does not see the disease, he will never address the need for change.It is not civility itself that is the problem, but, rather, that Dr. Bob has not come up with a way to manage incivility civilly. It may be that Dr. Bob is uncivil in the way he attempts to promote civility punitively.
- Scott
Posted by obsidian on January 11, 2011, at 20:30:51
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » SLS, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 11, 2011, at 17:29:42
That sounds like a good idea to me
Posted by violette on January 11, 2011, at 22:11:21
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » SLS, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 11, 2011, at 17:29:42
>Perhaps others can make suggestions for how to phase-out the current dysfunctional moderation and enable a more relevant and healthier one.
Create a new forum-the Rage board. The Rage board would be a healthy place to vent, devalue, express anger, or complain. The emotional outlet would divert passive agressiveness and overt anger or disapproval from the other forums, among other things, resulting in a healthier way to express yourself that parallels the human experience. Example-if you are currently suffering from Effexor withdrawal, you could go on the forum and say "That Effexor is damn poison!!!". You could say "Twitter sucks!!". Or you could say..."My psychiatrist is an *ssh*l*!"...you could say, well, just about anything....because-it isn't personal to anyone but the Ragor. Ragees who personally associate themselves with the Ragor's rages would have to keep out. A Mister Yuk-Rage sticker icon could serve ss a warning.
But instead of creating a quasi government structure complete with a consitution, judicial system, exectuive branch and legislative arm with complex laws - we would have 3 simple, easy to understand rules:
1.No anti:race, religion, sex, sexual orientation
2.No talking about forum members past or present
3.Enter at your own riskA warning would be attached to the Rage forum in bright red font, with flashing highlight. That way, people who are feeling vulnerable, who are rejection sensitive or easily offended; or who are experiencing unfavorable emotional affect - would have no reason to complain. Those who feel that way can simply avoid the forum.
The rest will have a nice, safe place to play out childhood drama, re-enactments, repetition compulsions, devalue-whatever you choose given your mood or problem or issue. And that stuff could then stay off the other boards.
Posted by sigismund on January 11, 2011, at 23:02:17
In reply to Rage Forum » ed_uk2010, posted by violette on January 11, 2011, at 22:11:21
We could have a passive agressive board and a passive agressive irony board.
Thank you for your deeply helpful post. It makes me think so much more of you for having posted it.
Posted by sigismund on January 11, 2011, at 23:12:12
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or, posted by SLS on January 11, 2011, at 19:02:15
There will always be fractious individuals and they will come into conflict with other individuals.
It is those fractious individuals who are some of the most remarkable people I have met here. They are not easy people and they may not get on with others harmoniously. But any system should find a way to so something better than to just get rid of them and/or discourage them.
So what do you do?
Bob says (and I think he really means) that he does not block people for life, but it is so obvious when one of these individuals returns that they are so closely watched and given so little leeway.
I don't know. If you knew the answer to this you would know how to make groups work better.
There has to be a better model than the US penal system.
I'd go with Muffled's idea of very short blocks.
Posted by sigismund on January 11, 2011, at 23:24:58
In reply to Rage Forum » ed_uk2010, posted by violette on January 11, 2011, at 22:11:21
I hope you realise that was directed at myself rather than you.
One must be so careful these days.
Posted by SLS on January 12, 2011, at 5:01:30
In reply to Rage Forum » ed_uk2010, posted by violette on January 11, 2011, at 22:11:21
> > Perhaps others can make suggestions for how to phase-out the current dysfunctional moderation and enable a more relevant and healthier one.
> > Maybe the Administration board should be renamed "Mayhem", and allow people a forum to slam each other, although one could make an argument that mayhem is what is really going on here.
> Create a new forum-the Rage board. The Rage board would be a healthy place to vent, devalue, express anger, or complain.
I like your name better than mine. It represents a more therapeutic goal.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 12, 2011, at 5:12:28
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » SLS, posted by sigismund on January 11, 2011, at 23:12:12
> There will always be fractious individuals and they will come into conflict with other individuals.
Yes.
> It is those fractious individuals who are some of the most remarkable people I have met here.
Me too. Where are they now?
> They are not easy people and they may not get on with others harmoniously. But any system should find a way to so something better than to just get rid of them and/or discourage them.
That's a tough one.
I don't know how to measure incivility, but I know it when I see it...
> So what do you do?
>
> Bob says (and I think he really means) that he does not block people for life,Although there may be an ulterior investigative motive rather than pure altruism going on here, I guess the result is the same.
> I don't know. If you knew the answer to this you would know how to make groups work better.
At this point, it seems easier for me to point out difficulties rather than resolve them. I consider this to be a demonstration of the conundrum of the operation of this place.
> There has to be a better model than the US penal system.
Or perhaps we can conceive of a better judicial institution.
- Scott
Posted by sigismund on January 12, 2011, at 10:13:51
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » sigismund, posted by SLS on January 12, 2011, at 5:12:28
Where are they now?
I think they got sick of it and buggered off elsewhere.
They probably felt they did not have the energy for it or that it was not worth it.
The ones I am thinking of were pretty nifty with the civility rules too.
Posted by SLS on January 12, 2011, at 15:12:57
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » SLS, posted by sigismund on January 12, 2011, at 10:13:51
> > Where are they now?
> I think they got sick of it and buggered off elsewhere.
What is "it", Sigi? Would you venture to answer that question candidly?
> They probably felt they did not have the energy for it or that it was not worth it.
Psycho-Babble asks a lot of people, especially of those who are new to the website.
> The ones I am thinking of were pretty nifty with the civility rules too.I am confused by this statement. Were they particularly good at negotiating the language restrictions?
I have kept in touch with a few people that I would place on my list of valuable posters who left Psycho-Babble because of the changes made in the way the site operates. I would be embarrassed to ask any one of them to return. It has been a long time since summary judgments and posting blocks were first instituted at Psycho-Babble. It was in the year 2000. That's a full decade. It is surreal. It doesn't seem that long ago for me, probably because nothing of import has changed. We are still arguing over this website's mandate to regulate speech and employ frequent posting blocks as a means toward the enforcement of an autocratically formulated set of rules of conduct.
Day by day, I am sickened and disgusted by witnessing the ever more rapid rate at which Psycho-Babble is dying. It is being choked to death.
There are many ways in which people can be hurt. I am hurting right now. In the past, Psycho-Babble was a nearly idyllic place for me. It was safe, communal, educational and extremely supportive. But no more. I am selfish. I do not want to lose the type of Psycho-Babble that attracted me a decade ago. I guess this is my primary motivator for posting here recently.
- Scott
Posted by sigismund on January 12, 2011, at 16:20:14
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » sigismund, posted by SLS on January 12, 2011, at 15:12:57
Well, one who deserves to be remembered for his brilliant and humane posts was Zeugma. He wrote long posts about Valery Plame(sp?) and how her cover was blown and when he got to something beyond the civility rules he would write <uncivil descriptor deleted> like that. Those posts were, apart from anything else, very very funny. So he was nifty with the civility rules.
I have to have breakfast in the Japanese hotel now. I see there is a red flag next to this computer. Perhaps someone is trying to tell me something but unfortunately for them I do not read Japanese.
Posted by sigismund on January 13, 2011, at 0:59:27
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » sigismund, posted by SLS on January 12, 2011, at 15:12:57
I dunno. I don't think Babble is being choked to death. I think it just comes naturally to the living. That is, it's kind of no one's fault and everything is f*ck*d AKA the Human Condition.
I do think people get sick of each other and that if something lasts long enough it will eventually die.
>It has been a long time since summary judgments and posting blocks were first instituted at Psycho-Babble. It was in the year 2000.So you remember it before that? There was a time before the blocks? What was that like?
Posted by SLS on January 13, 2011, at 4:16:31
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phillipa if you are feeling put down or » SLS, posted by sigismund on January 13, 2011, at 0:59:27
> I dunno. I don't think Babble is being choked to death. I think it just comes naturally to the living. That is, it's kind of no one's fault and everything is f*ck*d AKA the Human Condition.
>
> I do think people get sick of each other and that if something lasts long enough it will eventually die.
>
>
> >It has been a long time since summary judgments and posting blocks were first instituted at Psycho-Babble. It was in the year 2000.
>
> So you remember it before that? There was a time before the blocks? What was that like?It was a time of discovery and growth.
Not choking. Afterall, speech on Psycho-Babble is now restricted by design.
People on Psycho-Babble were generally civil. A touch more moderation would have been nice. Dr. Bob seemed to be more of a comrade than a dictator. However, ubiquitous posting blocks and the more recent allocation of responsibility to the posting community for training individuals to communicate differently is not fun and does not work.
Moderation is a good thing. However...
There is so much more I could opine on, but I am reaching my limit of tolerance.
Sorry Sigi. Right now, I am so focused on what I perceive to be the negative aspects of the current state of affairs on Psycho-Babble, that I can see very little else. I grow weary of describing these things.
Dr. Bob tries to do good. He has accomplished a great deal with the invention of Psycho-Babble. He has even taught me better styles of communication, which I place great importance on. It can be invaluable. Unfortunately, I believe the vector of the website has been changed. I don't want the job of accusing people that they are uncivil and suggest ways to correct their behavior. There are gentler ways to suggest to people more effective styles of communication other than to dissect their words and block their posting privileges. Yes, I said privileges. I understand that participating on Psycho-Babble is a privilege and not a right prescribed by law. I still value that privilege.
I hope you have a wonderful day. I plan to.
- Scott
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