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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 63 to 87 of 102. Go back in thread:
Posted by 10derHeart on July 9, 2009, at 19:28:27
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2009, at 17:45:18
Sigi said:
> > Is Fayeroe in danger of being taken off to the pound?
> > Just trying to keep up here.Dr. Bob said:
> Yes.
For what, exactly? For clarity, please, Dr.Bob. Are we supposed to be guessing that some part of what Pat posted could be uncivil, by virtue of the fact Lou asked a question about it? Is that what everyone else gets and I don't? Is that why you thanked him. Sorry to be this dumb and probably annoying, but I really, really don't understand {shakes head} I'm exhausted from guessing.
*I* can speculate, and I have in another post, but that just confuses the thread and issues further, IMO.
And if you don't know quite how to say that, without actually taking - or seeming to take - admin action, or appearing accusing and uncivil yourself (pretend with me, and assume the role of an ordinary poster) well, that's the dilemma regular posters also face (second part, not necessarily the 1st part, unless they are deputies, trying to post as posters) when contemplating "helping' as you have been suggesting.
It is nowhere near easy.
Posted by henrietta on July 9, 2009, at 20:36:02
In reply to Re: the length » verne, posted by Dr. Bob on July 6, 2009, at 23:35:20
I feel accused and put down by the suggestion that it is my fault (as a member of said community) that Verne got blocked. PBC, Bob.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 10, 2009, at 1:47:42
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derHeart on July 9, 2009, at 19:28:27
> Are we supposed to be guessing that some part of what Pat posted could be uncivil, by virtue of the fact Lou asked a question about it?
Sorry, I intended to make it clear by quoting it:
> > I see what I think are empty apologies from Bob. And , of course, I also see a refusal by Bob to consider anything that any of us say about the blocks.
Bob
Posted by 10derHeart on July 10, 2009, at 2:20:18
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Dr. Bob on July 10, 2009, at 1:47:42
Yes, I saw you quoted it before in the very long post.
What I was trying to say was that you suddenly (apparently) casting Pat as the cat (not even sure if that was correct) and then mentioning the cat needing help to get out of the tree did *not* translate into - "I see potential/actual uncivil words here......" etc. Not even close. You had just said the cat remained civil....so I wasn't even thinking about civility anymore, and didn't know what you were even talking about.
I still find this sort of thing unecessarily winding and requiring too much concentration to follow.
I'm too dense to understand this style, or the need for it, I guess.
I won't ask any more questions, but I do wonder if Fayeroe understands she is the "cat" that might need to do something...
(I actually can't believe I just wrote that sentence)
I mean, I have been acquainted with you around the topic of civil or uncivil posts for a long time, and I was baffled.
Posted by 10derHeart on July 10, 2009, at 2:21:40
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derHeart on July 10, 2009, at 2:20:18
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 10, 2009, at 3:37:11
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derHeart on July 10, 2009, at 2:20:18
> What I was trying to say was that you suddenly (apparently) casting Pat as the cat (not even sure if that was correct) and then mentioning the cat needing help to get out of the tree did *not* translate into - "I see potential/actual uncivil words here......" etc. Not even close. You had just said the cat remained civil....so I wasn't even thinking about civility anymore, and didn't know what you were even talking about.
Ah, thanks for explaining. Maybe I got carried away with Seldom's metaphor. Pat was civil to Lou, but not to me.
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 10, 2009, at 8:11:03
In reply to Re: the length » Dr. Bob, posted by henrietta on July 9, 2009, at 20:36:02
> I feel accused and put down by the suggestion that it is my fault (as a member of said community) that Verne got blocked. PBC, Bob.
henrietta,
You wrote,[...I feel xxx and yyy zzzz by...]
If this feeling that you describe here is from reading a post from here, could you email me with the URL? If you could then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on July 10, 2009, at 19:43:10
In reply to Lou's request-2pstn? » henrietta, posted by Lou Pilder on July 10, 2009, at 8:11:03
The cat is probably thinking something like
'I regret that I mistook an full regret for an empty apology', or
'Help, I'm in a tree and won't get down because I'm scared I'll be raped by the psychiatrist who is standing below me with a net.'
Posted by rskontos on July 11, 2009, at 0:52:44
In reply to Re: trying to get a Pat out of a tree, posted by Dr. Bob on July 10, 2009, at 3:37:11
>>Pat was civil to Lou, but not to me>>
But how was she uncivil she said what I see is empty apologies. She was saying how she felt. How is that uncivil.
If she feels it sounded empty then maybe it did to her. Why should thatnot warrant more explanation from you since it was her perception and that is how she expressed it.
Shakes my head. I think I feel that only Dr. Bob can correctly interpret the civility guidelines.
later this is too weird for me. I still feel on administration we should be able to post views using I feel I think etc statements.
It is obvious we can't. I need to stop coming here. It gets me too upset.
rsk
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2009, at 10:25:19
In reply to Re: trying to get a Pat out of a tree » Dr. Bob, posted by rskontos on July 11, 2009, at 0:52:44
> But how was she uncivil she said what I see is empty apologies. She was saying how she felt.
How would you feel if someone said she felt your apologies were empty? I don't consider those true I-statements, see:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/320097.htmlThanks,
Bob
Posted by Poet on July 11, 2009, at 12:54:51
In reply to Re: Dr Bob » Poet, posted by Dinah on July 8, 2009, at 9:49:38
Hi Dinah,
Thank you. I was hurt by the remarks made about me and I am far from civil in real life, but I forced myself to just ignore it and I'm happy to see you agreed that I did the right thing.
Poet
Posted by Poet on July 11, 2009, at 12:59:31
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2009, at 11:52:49
I was hurt by what you posted about me and would appreciate it if you would apologize for what you said. Thank You.
Poet
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 13, 2009, at 10:36:47
In reply to Eample Apology Request » Dr. Bob, posted by Poet on July 11, 2009, at 12:59:31
> I was hurt by what you posted about me and would appreciate it if you would apologize for what you said. Thank You.
I like that, thank you. Does anybody else have any comments? Or alternative suggestions?
Bob
Posted by obsidian on July 13, 2009, at 18:52:49
In reply to Dr-Bob is the Chestmaster, no one wins! (nm), posted by rjlockhart04-08 on July 9, 2009, at 0:50:30
I don't know about that...I could just decide not to play
I don't see him as that machiavellian, but as a student of human nature and interaction
Posted by Kath on July 13, 2009, at 19:04:48
In reply to Eample Apology Request » Dr. Bob, posted by Poet on July 11, 2009, at 12:59:31
> I was hurt by what you posted about me and would appreciate it if you would apologize for what you said. Thank You.
>
> Poet~ ~ Dear Poet,
If a poet is someone who is good with words, then you sure are one! I think that's a great sentence above.
Thanks, Kath
Posted by BayLeaf on July 13, 2009, at 19:26:03
In reply to Re: Eample Apology Request, posted by Dr. Bob on July 13, 2009, at 10:36:47
And the purpose is to prevent being blocked, right?
Cuz I can see this being abused, misused, or overused. You know we will!
There are some SUPER sensitive people here. I might post something that is civil per guidelines. But someone might find it hurt their feelings. So they may request that I apologize to them.
Now, *I'm* gunna feel bad...or even mad!! So, then I'm gunna request they apologize for making me feel bad, implying my post was uncivil, etc,....repeat cycle.
Will you end up making a new rule about unwarranted requests for apologies?? Add that into your block equation!
It's all a bit nutty to me.
Bay
Posted by Kath on July 13, 2009, at 20:07:58
In reply to Re: Example Apology Request » Dr. Bob, posted by BayLeaf on July 13, 2009, at 19:26:03
Something like:
I felt hurt by ".................."
Did you mean to hurt me? ! ! ! ! ! !
Although I guess people might just say "No."
I don't know. It's pretty complex when it gets down to people's feelings.
I've given a bit more thought to the apology part.
I've never liked the idea of a forced apology. I never made my kids apologize. Because what if someone ISN'T sorry. Why should they say sorry. I guess they could say they're sorry the person's feelings were hurt. But maybe they aren't!!!Yikes.
Kath
Posted by Deneb on July 13, 2009, at 20:23:44
In reply to Eample Apology Request » Dr. Bob, posted by Poet on July 11, 2009, at 12:59:31
Oooh, Dr. Bob, how about:
I felt hurt after I read your post. An apology would make me feel better.
This one is all about me, it doesn't say anything bad about the other person. I think I get "I statements". Right?
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 14, 2009, at 8:59:40
In reply to Re: BLAMING the COMMUNITY! I've had it!!!!! STOP IT!! » Dinah, posted by fayeroe on July 7, 2009, at 18:10:32
> I see what I think are empty apologies from Bob. And , of course, I also see a refusal by Bob to consider anything that any of us say about the blocks.
Please don't post anything that could lead others (including me) to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you. I do hope you choose to remain a member of this community and it helps you, if needed, to avoid future blocks. Lou, Phillipa, and Sigismund, thanks for trying to help her this time.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
PS: According to the formula:
duration of previous block: 4 weeks
period of time since previous block: 8 weeks
severity: 2 (default)
block length = 6.62 rounded = 7 weeks
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 14, 2009, at 9:06:22
In reply to Re: Eample Apology Request, posted by Deneb on July 13, 2009, at 20:23:44
> Oooh, Dr. Bob, how about:
>
> I felt hurt after I read your post. An apology would make me feel better.
>
> This one is all about me, it doesn't say anything bad about the other person. I think I get "I statements". Right?Right, good work!
Bob
Posted by Kath on July 14, 2009, at 9:14:43
In reply to Re: Eample Apology Request, posted by Deneb on July 13, 2009, at 20:23:44
> Oooh, Dr. Bob, how about:
>
> I felt hurt after I read your post. An apology would make me feel better.~ ~ ~ Oh Deneb - I think that's perfect.
Kath
Posted by Dinah on July 14, 2009, at 9:35:34
In reply to Re: Eample Apology Request, posted by Dr. Bob on July 13, 2009, at 10:36:47
My alternative suggestion is that Administration provide a safe environment for people to post their most private thoughts, or be playful and open, without fearing that incivility towards them will be tolerated.
This wasn't a difference of opinion that escalated. This wasn't a case of misunderstanding.
I realize that different people have different views of what is right and wrong. But I don't understand how the proper course of action should be to ask someone who has been hurt by unprovoked incivility to respond with a request for an apology or a statement of how they feel. Asking them not to respond in kind seems enough without that person feel responsible for keeping the other poster from being blocked. Or to feel responsible for future incivilities by the poster they helped not to be blocked towards other posters if they succeed. Because that's how I would feel. If a poster I helped avoid a block by apologizing then hurt someone else through incivility, I would feel responsible.
I don't like this. I know you have said that you are not *asking* posters to respond this way. Just suggesting that they could. But your suggestions hold weight. And your suggestions determine the unspoken values on Babble. Your suggestions lead to third party posters, instead of empathizing with the hurt poster, have the expectations that what is desirable is to refrain from reporting, to express your feelings, and to ask for an apology, and to accept one graciously. To be a good sport. It can lead to fears of social disapproval that amount to pressure to behave in a certain way.
I don't understand this at all. Maybe I'm too old. But to me, third party support should take the form of telling the hurt poster that they never found them to be xxxxx, and that support to someone who has been uncivil should certainly include statements of how the poster is valued, without ignoring the fact that the behaviors can hurt others. Somehow "Please do stay" unaccompanied by "but don't hurt others" is interpreted by me at least as "Please do stay and continue as you are."
I know that there is value in learning how to stand up for yourself. But this is not a process group, and even if it were, a process group requires skilled facilitators. People often come to Babble in distress. They pour out their hearts. They make themselves vulnerable. In my mind, this is not what their expectation of Babble ought to be.
This is not about Verne and Poet in particular. And my examples and statements don't refer to this particular situation.
Posted by Kath on July 14, 2009, at 10:34:47
In reply to Re: Eample Apology Request » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 14, 2009, at 9:35:34
Some really good points Dinah - that I hadn't even thought of.
Thanks for bringing them up so clearly.
If I had been hurt, particularly if it seemed really vicious, probably the last thing I'd want to do would be stick my head out & tell the person they'd hurt me, etc, etc. Once bitten twice shy.
Thx Dinah, Kath xoxo
Posted by Nadezda on July 14, 2009, at 10:50:37
In reply to Re: Eample Apology Request » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 14, 2009, at 9:35:34
Upon reflection, I think Dinah makes an important point here.
I think the long blocks are too severe for a psychology message board, where people come when they're feeling threatened, angry, or hurt, and therefore may be more vulnerable than on other, more information-related message boards.
But this new policy of expecting the hurt perso--or others-- to request in a civil way some sort of apology-- or otherwise to intervene to help the person who's been uncivil-- seems too great a burden. First of all, it encourages someone who's hurt and who may not have a perfect sense of tone, to put themselves in the position of asking in the right way-- and therefore possibly of being uncivil themselves.
Moreover, it takes the responsibility for the incivility and its redress away from the uncivil poster and diffuses it among the community. For example, just to be concrete, when you say that the community wasn't able to help Verne, it could suggest that the ultimate responsibility for getting help here is not Verne's-- but that the community fell short. That seems simply inaccurate to me.
Moreover in the instance we have here-- and I don't mean this as a criticism or put down of anyone-- people were preoccupied by Verne's plight and really ignored the incivility that he had enacted-- and the person who was the subject of his words. This seems to me to be a significant mistake about who needs support in these situations-- I'm concerned about Verne, but the other person seems to have been lost in the discussion. The direction of this change in policy seems to put the enactor in the spotlight, as someone who is not being adequately helped, when the other person becomes someone who hasn't helped enough.
I hope this isn't taken as uncivil, because I'm talking about a specific instance. I just think it illustrates a danger in the new system.
I have to run and can't revise, so I apologize in advance if this is not well stated. I agree that safety is paramount-- although of course not the only value.
Nadezda
Posted by alexandra_k on July 15, 2009, at 0:15:06
In reply to Re: Eample Apology Request, posted by Dr. Bob on July 14, 2009, at 9:06:22
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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