![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 49 to 73 of 102. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on July 8, 2009, at 9:49:38
In reply to Re: Dr Bob, posted by Poet on July 8, 2009, at 9:25:51
Poet, I was the Administrative presence who responded to your situation. I did so as best I could in accordance with my understanding of site guidelines and Dr. Bob's wishes. But I think my actions let you down, and I really regret that.
I don't think you should have to risk a PBC to ask for an apology. I don't think you should have to, even if you weren't risking a PBC. I think it is Administration's responsibility to provide an environment where people aren't forced to defend themselves. I recognize that there is value in learning how to stand up for oneself against incivility. But I don't think a mental health support board is someplace you should have to do that. I think a mental health support board is a place where you can go and expect to have an environment where you can feel reasonably safe to post private and personal thoughts.
It may be that my values are out of step with reality or the wishes of the majority here. Perhaps Babble has moved on, and I haven't.
But I don't think it was your responsibility to do anything but be civil yourself. I think it is administration's responsibility to provide the structure of the environment. If the community wishes to try to help those they care about, in terms of encouraging them to recognize that people on an internet board are real people who can feel hurt, or wish to help them reframe the situation so that they can be civil, that's fine.
In my opinion...
It is administration's responsibility to provide a safe environment, as best they can.
It is a poster's responsibility to follow site guidelines, if only because they agreed to do so when they registered to post.
It is the community's responsibility to provide support to each other, in whatever way they feel they are able to do so. I don't think it is any individual's responsibility to provide support to any individual in particular in any particular way.
In particular, I don't think you had the slightest responsibility to do anything but remain civil yourself until Admin responded.
Posted by fayeroe on July 8, 2009, at 16:45:38
In reply to Lou's request-refucon » fayeroe, posted by Lou Pilder on July 7, 2009, at 21:50:38
Posted by obsidian on July 9, 2009, at 0:12:20
In reply to No, thanks, Lou. (nm) » Lou Pilder, posted by fayeroe on July 8, 2009, at 16:45:38
It was my impression that perhaps some of us were familiar with verne's pattern, that there was anger at his being blocked because some understood the behavior that resulted in blocks as part of his struggle.
Since some had that understanding I felt that perhaps Dr Bob was perhaps being more tolerant in the hopes that those who understood could attempt to help him rather than being upset about the behavior. I did not perceive it as a burden placed on the community, but rather a hope that a more tolerant attitude amongst peers would help him through whatever was going on.
IMHO of course....
-sid
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on July 9, 2009, at 0:50:30
In reply to I get the feeling that Dr. Bob can't win....., posted by obsidian on July 9, 2009, at 0:12:20
Posted by Dinah on July 9, 2009, at 8:25:44
In reply to I get the feeling that Dr. Bob can't win....., posted by obsidian on July 9, 2009, at 0:12:20
> It was my impression that perhaps some of us were familiar with verne's pattern, that there was anger at his being blocked because some understood the behavior that resulted in blocks as part of his struggle.
> Since some had that understanding I felt that perhaps Dr Bob was perhaps being more tolerant in the hopes that those who understood could attempt to help him rather than being upset about the behavior. I did not perceive it as a burden placed on the community, but rather a hope that a more tolerant attitude amongst peers would help him through whatever was going on.
> IMHO of course....
> -sid
>I think you're far closer to the truth than anyone else, myself included. My guess is that he has a few goals. I wish he would be more forthright in explaining them instead of trying to express them experientially. I prefer the forthright explanation, with examples.
For me, I think the emphasis should be on providing a safe environment to the vulnerable posters who come here with a reasonable expectation that they will not be subject to incivility and that Admin will provide a structure that will protect them, as much as possible, from incivility. And that it's fine to try to help posters, but not at the expense of other posters.
Dr. Bob is nicer than me I think, as you are, Sid.
I really am beginning to wonder if I am out of step in this day and age.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2009, at 11:52:49
In reply to Re: Dr Bob » Poet, posted by Dinah on July 8, 2009, at 9:49:38
> He was blocked 1 hour and 7 minutes after his posted. I did not see Verne's post until a few days later, and personally, I can't be here all the time as I'm a mom with real life duties.
>
> Are you saying that we should have tried to get him to rephrase/apologize within an hour of his post...before getting blocked?
>
> AvaRegarding having only an hour to respond, I don't think I can add anything to:
> There were a lot of posts from before by verne and you could just see where it was going. If somebody had stepped in and just tried to detour him from getting to this point and maybe offered to help him with whatever was troubling him, maybe it would have helped.
>
> I think that verne was just needing some help. It sucks that now he doesn't have PB to help him.
>
> HyperFocus> We all could think ... about what we did to help Verne after his PBC, knowing, as we do, how much and how likely he is to be blocked-- and how prone he is to say things that may be problematic.
>
> NadezdaRegarding behind here all the time, I didn't mean to imply that every single poster should've done something. But maybe more could've tried? Maybe those who have more of a relationship with him, or particularly dislike seeing others blocked -- and feel willing and able to take a risk?
--
> I do wish you would stop expecting us to help others ... not get blocked, we can't always do that effectively or even know how to get around doing it civilly.
>
> rskMaybe it would help to discuss what might be effective and civil ways to help someone avoid a block? I made one suggestion:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20090529/msgs/905410.html
Anybody else?
> I chose to ignore what Verne posted to me, which must put me as part of the community that didn't intervene. ... I guess if this situation occurs again I will risk a PBC and ask directly for an apology or retraction of the statement which would be an intervention.
>
> PoetFYI, I consider not retaliating to be an intervention. Not to imply that you wanted to...
But asking for an apology or retraction could be even more helpful. What about posting an example request? You have plenty of civility buddies here!
--
> I would fear, however, that my best efforts might lead to nothing positive, but would potentially open me up to attack, simply for the attempt. Sometimes when one is trying to get a cat out of a tree one gets a faceful of cat!
>
> I guess I need to keep reminding myself that I work with tigers every week and have a houseful of cats. Surely I can deal with a faceful of cat every now and then. :)
>
> Seldom.I can see how there may be anxiety about stepping in. If a poster's been uncivil to someone else, they maybe uncivil to you, too.
Still, if posters approach the cat carefully, each in their own way, and the cat recognizes some of them, and sees how high it is, it may be possible to coax it down.
This is a thoughtful and intelligent group. I have confidence in your ability to find ways to be supportive. Though of course you won't succeed every time. As a last resort:
> The civility guidelines are meant to keep those incidents at a minimum.
>
> DinahWhich might be like the fire department going up into the tree and taking the cat to the pound.
--
> As I see it, the block is too help the person or persons hurt by the block, and to help the blockee not escalate something. How exactly does blocking someone for 52 weeks help us here at babble. And how would you ever expect someone would come back after that when they have to learn to deal without the support of Babble for a year and therefore probably doesn't want to be here anymore.
>
> rskBlocks also help Babble by keeping it more civil. I don't necessarily expect someone to come back afterwards. Though they're welcome to. And sometimes they do. What I'd prefer is for them not to be blocked in the first place.
--
> I wonder what Dr. Bob thinks an apology would do, if posting behavior does not change. I have been taught that an apology consists of regret, taking responsibility, and making amends (which could include taking care that it doesn't happen again). An apology with the first two but without the third doesn't seem like a good way to promote civility.
Well, it's a start. One step at a time.
> I think it would be far better to have willingness to abide by site guidelines be the means by which people return
>
> DinahI agree, I'm just not sure how I'd assess willingness. It would be a form of assessing intent, which I try to avoid.
--
> Does it not make sense then that the posters expect Bob to show compassion and empathy for them?
>
> fayeroeIt's understandable. But it makes more sense for posters to expect compassion and empathy from other posters.
--
> Is it possible for you to more encouraging and less blaming in your introduction of this idea?
>
> wouldn't it be equally valid (and perhaps better received) if you expressed distress that the block happened, support for the second poster, thanks to those who tried to help, and a hope that in the future things will turn out differently and the poster will choose to remain part of this terrific community?
>
> DinahThat's a good point. Thanks for expressing that better. It's more positive to look forward than back.
--
> I see what I think are empty apologies from Bob. And , of course, I also see a refusal by Bob to consider anything that any of us say about the blocks.
>
> fayeroe> I am unsure as to what the criteria that you use to determine if an apology is empty.
> As to a refusal to consider, my undersyanding of what it means to consider something may be different than yours. Could you post here how you determine if one refuses to consider?
>
> Lou> No, thanks, Lou.
>
> fayeroeIn this case, Lou took a risk and approached the cat. And the cat was civil, but stayed in the tree. It would distress me to have to take the cat back to the pound. Does anybody else feel willing and able to help the cat?
Lou, thank you for trying to help. Fayeroe, thank you for being civil to Lou. Whatever happens, I hope you choose to remain part of this terrific, though sometimes stormy, community.
--
> I think a mental health support board is a place where you can go and expect to have an environment where you can feel reasonably safe to post private and personal thoughts.
>
> It may be that my values are out of step with reality or the wishes of the majority here. Perhaps Babble has moved on, and I haven't.
>
> DinahThat's my goal, too. But it's not always clear to me how to get there. I'm adjusting the course I'm taking. I know change can be disruptive. Thank you all for your patience.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on July 9, 2009, at 12:13:22
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2009, at 11:52:49
> But asking for an apology or retraction could be even more helpful. What about posting an example request? You have plenty of civility buddies here!
>
> --To me, this is encouraging posters to tolerate incivility towards them, and applying subtle pressure on them to do so. This is against my value system, although I recognize it is not against your value system and may in fact better reflect the value system of Babble as it currently is.
I know the pressure, subtle and overt, applied by peers and by authority figures for the innocent to work things out with the uncivil. I find that I cannot support that in any way shape or form. The innocent should not have to deal with incivility and should not, IMO, be pressured into doing so by you or by other posters.
> That's my goal, too. But it's not always clear to me how to get there. I'm adjusting the course I'm taking. I know change can be disruptive. Thank you all for your patience.
I have tried to roll with the punches as far as your course adjustments. But there are some course adjustments I am unable to take while maintaining my own self respect in terms of my values.
This is one of those times. If this is what's best for babble, I respect that, but I can't personally be part of it.
I understand the value of asking posters to work things out between themselves in cases of squabbles or disagreements. But not in cases like this.
If this is the course that Babble needs, then it needs a deputy who is on board with the change.
Posted by Phillipa on July 9, 2009, at 12:30:23
In reply to Lou's request-refucon » fayeroe, posted by Lou Pilder on July 7, 2009, at 21:50:38
Fayroe also not clear on your post. Could you word it different or clarify what you mean. Thanks Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2009, at 15:21:11
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Dinah on July 9, 2009, at 12:13:22
> > > I guess if this situation occurs again I will risk a PBC and ask directly for an apology or retraction of the statement which would be an intervention.
> >
> > asking for an apology or retraction could be ... helpful. What about posting an example request?
>
> To me, this is encouraging posters to tolerate incivility towards them, and applying subtle pressure on them to do so.I did encourage Poet to explore her plan. It wasn't my plan. But I guess encouragement could be experienced as pressure. Poet, please feel free not to post an example request.
Incivility in some form is probably inevitable. Even if we approved messages before they were posted, we might consider something civil and others might not. So the question is how to respond. Wouldn't ignoring it actually be more like tolerating it?
> I know the pressure, subtle and overt, applied by peers and by authority figures for the innocent to work things out with the uncivil. I find that I cannot support that in any way shape or form.
>
> I understand the value of asking posters to work things out between themselves in cases of squabbles or disagreements. But not in cases like this.How are cases like this different? Or, when should everyone just wait for the fire department? Being able to work things out with someone who's uncivil could be a useful skill to develop.
Bob
Posted by Timne on July 9, 2009, at 15:35:14
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2009, at 15:21:11
> Incivility in some form is probably inevitable. Even if we approved messages before they were posted, we might consider something civil and others might not. So the question is how to respond. Wouldn't ignoring it actually be more like tolerating it?
>
> BobCould that be formally classified as a false dilemma? Are there other options, such as deleting it?
I'm reminded of the old practice of putting heads on pikes to remind newcomers not to do things that might result in their head being left on a pike. An image comes to mind of a front yard along a busy sidewalk, covered in dog droppings and maybe copies of citations -- or pooper-scoop bags, left there as the owners way of telling dog owners not to let their dogs act that way.
If poop-bags are left in a dog park where there are not stools left lying around, the hint might strongly compel dog owners to use the bags. If the bags are left in a park littered with dung, broken windows theory suggests other dog owners will ignore the bags and leave their dog's leavings unattended.
Broken windows theory does not involve leaving windows broken and placing court records of convicted vandals alongside broken windows. Broken windows theory says keep a clean house and guests will start to clean up after themselves.
Posted by Sigismund on July 9, 2009, at 16:50:07
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2009, at 11:52:49
>Lou took a risk and approached the cat. And the cat was civil, but stayed in the tree. It would distress me to have to take the cat back to the pound. Does anybody else feel willing and able to help the cat?
Is Fayeroe in danger of being taken off to the pound?
Just trying to keep up here.
Posted by 10derHeart on July 9, 2009, at 17:06:15
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Sigismund on July 9, 2009, at 16:50:07
Posted by 10derHeart on July 9, 2009, at 17:15:18
In reply to Lou's request-refucon » fayeroe, posted by Lou Pilder on July 7, 2009, at 21:50:38
well, wait...I can see it is possible for Dr. Bob to feel accused or put down by use of the phrase:
"empty apologies." I can see that. If my apologies were described that way, I might feel hurt. But maybe he could just say so, to Pat, and ask for a rephrase? Or maybe that's not even the phrase? Or the reason behind the pound comment? Dr. Bob lets an awful lot "go" when it's written about him personally, in the interst of allowing posters to vent and to communicate with him - or something like that (I'm expressiong that rationale very badly) So when it may be about him, I just observe, as I have not really known or understood where he draws his boundaries.
I'm a pretty big proponent of plain language. I am fairly easily confused. I dunno. Maybe he will return to explain.
*posting as a poster. Don't get involved administratively on threads where Dr. Bob is posting
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2009, at 17:45:18
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Sigismund on July 9, 2009, at 16:50:07
> Is Fayeroe in danger of being taken off to the pound?
> Just trying to keep up here.Yes. Sorry if I tried to cover too much in that post,
Bob
--
> > I see what I think are empty apologies from Bob. And , of course, I also see a refusal by Bob to consider anything that any of us say about the blocks.
> >
> > fayeroe
>
> > I am unsure as to what the criteria that you use to determine if an apology is empty.
> > As to a refusal to consider, my undersyanding of what it means to consider something may be different than yours. Could you post here how you determine if one refuses to consider?
> >
> > Lou
>
> > No, thanks, Lou.
> >
> > fayeroe
>
> In this case, Lou took a risk and approached the cat. And the cat was civil, but stayed in the tree. It would distress me to have to take the cat back to the pound. Does anybody else feel willing and able to help the cat?
>
> Lou, thank you for trying to help. Fayeroe, thank you for being civil to Lou. Whatever happens, I hope you choose to remain part of this terrific, though sometimes stormy, community.
Posted by 10derHeart on July 9, 2009, at 19:28:27
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2009, at 17:45:18
Sigi said:
> > Is Fayeroe in danger of being taken off to the pound?
> > Just trying to keep up here.Dr. Bob said:
> Yes.
For what, exactly? For clarity, please, Dr.Bob. Are we supposed to be guessing that some part of what Pat posted could be uncivil, by virtue of the fact Lou asked a question about it? Is that what everyone else gets and I don't? Is that why you thanked him. Sorry to be this dumb and probably annoying, but I really, really don't understand {shakes head} I'm exhausted from guessing.
*I* can speculate, and I have in another post, but that just confuses the thread and issues further, IMO.
And if you don't know quite how to say that, without actually taking - or seeming to take - admin action, or appearing accusing and uncivil yourself (pretend with me, and assume the role of an ordinary poster) well, that's the dilemma regular posters also face (second part, not necessarily the 1st part, unless they are deputies, trying to post as posters) when contemplating "helping' as you have been suggesting.
It is nowhere near easy.
Posted by henrietta on July 9, 2009, at 20:36:02
In reply to Re: the length » verne, posted by Dr. Bob on July 6, 2009, at 23:35:20
I feel accused and put down by the suggestion that it is my fault (as a member of said community) that Verne got blocked. PBC, Bob.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 10, 2009, at 1:47:42
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derHeart on July 9, 2009, at 19:28:27
> Are we supposed to be guessing that some part of what Pat posted could be uncivil, by virtue of the fact Lou asked a question about it?
Sorry, I intended to make it clear by quoting it:
> > I see what I think are empty apologies from Bob. And , of course, I also see a refusal by Bob to consider anything that any of us say about the blocks.
Bob
Posted by 10derHeart on July 10, 2009, at 2:20:18
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree, posted by Dr. Bob on July 10, 2009, at 1:47:42
Yes, I saw you quoted it before in the very long post.
What I was trying to say was that you suddenly (apparently) casting Pat as the cat (not even sure if that was correct) and then mentioning the cat needing help to get out of the tree did *not* translate into - "I see potential/actual uncivil words here......" etc. Not even close. You had just said the cat remained civil....so I wasn't even thinking about civility anymore, and didn't know what you were even talking about.
I still find this sort of thing unecessarily winding and requiring too much concentration to follow.
I'm too dense to understand this style, or the need for it, I guess.
I won't ask any more questions, but I do wonder if Fayeroe understands she is the "cat" that might need to do something...
(I actually can't believe I just wrote that sentence)
I mean, I have been acquainted with you around the topic of civil or uncivil posts for a long time, and I was baffled.
Posted by 10derHeart on July 10, 2009, at 2:21:40
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derHeart on July 10, 2009, at 2:20:18
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 10, 2009, at 3:37:11
In reply to Re: trying to get a cat out of a tree » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derHeart on July 10, 2009, at 2:20:18
> What I was trying to say was that you suddenly (apparently) casting Pat as the cat (not even sure if that was correct) and then mentioning the cat needing help to get out of the tree did *not* translate into - "I see potential/actual uncivil words here......" etc. Not even close. You had just said the cat remained civil....so I wasn't even thinking about civility anymore, and didn't know what you were even talking about.
Ah, thanks for explaining. Maybe I got carried away with Seldom's metaphor. Pat was civil to Lou, but not to me.
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 10, 2009, at 8:11:03
In reply to Re: the length » Dr. Bob, posted by henrietta on July 9, 2009, at 20:36:02
> I feel accused and put down by the suggestion that it is my fault (as a member of said community) that Verne got blocked. PBC, Bob.
henrietta,
You wrote,[...I feel xxx and yyy zzzz by...]
If this feeling that you describe here is from reading a post from here, could you email me with the URL? If you could then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on July 10, 2009, at 19:43:10
In reply to Lou's request-2pstn? » henrietta, posted by Lou Pilder on July 10, 2009, at 8:11:03
The cat is probably thinking something like
'I regret that I mistook an full regret for an empty apology', or
'Help, I'm in a tree and won't get down because I'm scared I'll be raped by the psychiatrist who is standing below me with a net.'
Posted by rskontos on July 11, 2009, at 0:52:44
In reply to Re: trying to get a Pat out of a tree, posted by Dr. Bob on July 10, 2009, at 3:37:11
>>Pat was civil to Lou, but not to me>>
But how was she uncivil she said what I see is empty apologies. She was saying how she felt. How is that uncivil.
If she feels it sounded empty then maybe it did to her. Why should thatnot warrant more explanation from you since it was her perception and that is how she expressed it.
Shakes my head. I think I feel that only Dr. Bob can correctly interpret the civility guidelines.
later this is too weird for me. I still feel on administration we should be able to post views using I feel I think etc statements.
It is obvious we can't. I need to stop coming here. It gets me too upset.
rsk
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2009, at 10:25:19
In reply to Re: trying to get a Pat out of a tree » Dr. Bob, posted by rskontos on July 11, 2009, at 0:52:44
> But how was she uncivil she said what I see is empty apologies. She was saying how she felt.
How would you feel if someone said she felt your apologies were empty? I don't consider those true I-statements, see:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/320097.htmlThanks,
Bob
Posted by Poet on July 11, 2009, at 12:54:51
In reply to Re: Dr Bob » Poet, posted by Dinah on July 8, 2009, at 9:49:38
Hi Dinah,
Thank you. I was hurt by the remarks made about me and I am far from civil in real life, but I forced myself to just ignore it and I'm happy to see you agreed that I did the right thing.
Poet
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