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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on June 21, 2009, at 6:12:17
In reply to Re: Rules Recommended Changes question and comment » floatingbridge, posted by yxibow on June 21, 2009, at 1:30:42
> > Following is a quote I found from the Policy section on Civility. I agree with this quote up to a point (and that is allowing people to be 'uncivil'.). What constitutes infraction incurring incivility can be parsed out later. What I like here is the idea of a flexibility and humanity--other posters in other threads above have made this same point. At the same time, I also like the sense of safety and community that a moderated board provides.
> >
> > "Part of learning how to deal with others might just be for people to be uncivil, have that pointed out by Dr. Bob and other members, and then work on appropriate alternate behaviors, and then keep posting. I have seen that happen many times here. There is the possibility for growth in this setting, kind of like group therapy, and I think people should take advantage of that. Sort of like practice here, before going to the "outside world" and dealing with the humans in our family and work lives. I would encourage people to ignore posters who press their buttons."
>
>
>
> I agree, if I think I am reading right what you are saying that this is a place where one should feel safe, just like in a therapist/doctor's office, but at the same time, some brief introduction to what one might see in the outside world, people are rough and "uncivil", whatever that exactly means is up to the beholder.... in the "outside world".....
>
> ..... and it is sort of CBT therapy in a way not to totally "press someones buttons" but yes, to be contrite occasionally because well, some people are just sh*tty out there, to put it mildly....
>
> ...I've had people "befriend" me because I've said too much "serious" stuff online....
>
> ...I find that the people I chat with outside here online who have or have experienced mental illness themselves are much more likely to be receptive and not "befriend" you whether they are local or long distance buddies.
>
>
> So I think its a balance.
>
> -- Jay
This sounds pretty healthy.Twinleaf-like.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 21, 2009, at 6:17:41
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes » rskontos, posted by yxibow on June 20, 2009, at 21:41:24
> And when I'm blocked for a week, I leave.
Sorry, Jay.Now *that* is against the rules of civility.
(It will earn you an extra week).
All kidding aside, you would be missed incredibly. Who else would there be to shovel all of the snow?
- Scott
Posted by BayLeaf on June 21, 2009, at 9:23:25
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes, posted by fayeroe on June 20, 2009, at 20:55:05
remember those learned helplessness experiements?
i am a worn dog. i give. can't even try.
sending my best fresher pups.
Posted by SLS on June 21, 2009, at 10:14:53
In reply to Re: me too, out of steam after many years » fayeroe, posted by BayLeaf on June 21, 2009, at 9:23:25
> remember those learned helplessness experiements?
I can understand this.
At first, though, it seems counterintuitive that those posters who become the most vocal and impassioned when someone is blocked from posting are now the most silent in offering their views regarding posting rules, even when asked directly.
Learned helplessness is just like depression, though. There is not enough psychic energy to deal with issues for which there is no longer sufficient emotional arousal. Resignation will take away motivation to fight.
- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on June 21, 2009, at 11:08:07
In reply to Rules - Recommended Changes, posted by SLS on June 20, 2009, at 6:44:41
Posted by SLS on June 21, 2009, at 11:45:03
In reply to Scott, so what is a PBC? (nm), posted by floatingbridge on June 21, 2009, at 11:08:07
A PBC (Please Be Civil) is a formal warning. The next similar infraction along the same thread usually earns a posting block.
- Scott
Posted by zenhussy on June 21, 2009, at 12:43:24
In reply to Re: me too, out of steam after many years » BayLeaf, posted by SLS on June 21, 2009, at 10:14:53
>>>Resignation will take away motivation to fight.<<<
So you view admin as a fight? Could you elaborate or clarify?
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on June 21, 2009, at 14:42:08
In reply to Re: Rules Recommended Changes question and comment, posted by floatingbridge on June 21, 2009, at 0:32:26
> Are they, as one poster above mentioned, no longer used?
(rskontos wrote:)
>It has been my observations that PBC's are not used now just blocksNothing has changed as far as use of PBCs. Deputies have asked posters to be civil 8 times in the month of June, and Dr. Bob asked one poster to 'please rephrase..." a part of a post (sometimes referred to as a PRT=Please Rephrase That)
The only thing posters may have noticed recently is Dr. Bob trying different methods to avoid PBCs, blocks altogether, and to encourage posters to work things out in the thread, amongst themselves. You'll find plenty of threads/posts on this Admin board discussing that issue - pro and con. (Not sure if there are any "pro," actually) In those threads, the deputies have not been acting, whether or not we see uncivil posts, once Dr. Bob has engaged the posters. Sometimes, it is many days, even weeks, before Dr. Bob is able to find the time to look at those threads again. That is unfortunate, but true.
In general, deputies will ask a poster to please follow the civility guidelines **at least** once, sometimes 2 or more times before resorting to a block. I know I can speak for all of us when I say our focus is on **asking** a person to follow the guidelines, and/or teaching what they are when there is confusion. That is the goal. None of us likes resorting to blocks. We use our best assessment of the poster and posts, taking into consideration whether they are new, are trying to post civil posts but misunderstanding the guidelines, etc. The times you may see no PBC before a block are with long time posters just coming off a block, who may post in basically the same uncivil manner that resulted in that block, the idea being they know what is and isn't civil, so..... Or, perhaps when a poster posts uncivil things, and immediately says, "I don't care about the XXXX civility rules," or, "I know this isn't civil so block me..., " or words to that effect. I that covers 98% of the times deputies block without a prior PBC.
We consult with each other in most cases, about PBCs, whether things are uncivil or not, whether it is appropriate to block, etc. This may not happen if only one deputy is available for hours (say when something is escalating quickly) or a day or more, etc. We alert Dr. Bob if we feel unable to act in a given situation. We also alert Dr. Bob on anything we've done but feel needs a look by him, to be sure we've applied the guidelines the way he would like. He can, of course, reverse, change, cancel or do anything he likes after any deputy action. Even though he is not here as frequently as we (the deputies) would like, these are still his boards, his guidelines.
Hope that helps answer some questions for the newer posters. As I posted to Scott above, I personally wish to stay out of these threads about rule changes, etc., as I think it's better not to have deputy input...and to just "listen" (i.e. read) what posters have to say. But, I'll do my best to answer any specific questions about current admin policy, if any more come up.
-- 10derHeart
Posted by rskontos on June 21, 2009, at 14:51:56
In reply to use of requests to be civil (PBC, etc.) » floatingbridge, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on June 21, 2009, at 14:42:08
You know actually this was very helpful to know why sometimes I have seen blocks without a PBC and wondered how it escalated straight to a block. I knew about the blocks after coming off after a block and the times when like you mentioned when someone blatantly says "I don''t care about the @@@ rules."
So this did clarify quite a bit for me.
I just do so hate for blocks though. I think they must be hurtful.
rsk
Posted by floatingbridge on June 21, 2009, at 15:56:35
In reply to use of requests to be civil (PBC, etc.) » floatingbridge, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on June 21, 2009, at 14:42:08
Hi Deputy 10derHeart,
Your post is very helpful in my understanding of current discussion and also in the forming of my own opinion. I realize now that I have seen these PBC's.
Thank you for interjecting,
Candace
Posted by 10derHeart on June 21, 2009, at 16:23:48
In reply to Re: use of requests to be civil (PBC, etc.) » Deputy 10derHeart, posted by floatingbridge on June 21, 2009, at 15:56:35
Posted by 10derHeart on June 21, 2009, at 16:26:30
In reply to Re: use of requests to be civil (PBC, etc.) » Deputy 10derHeart, posted by rskontos on June 21, 2009, at 14:51:56
I know blocks hurt. Many posters have expressed that here.
Posted by SLS on June 21, 2009, at 19:51:20
In reply to Re: me too, out of steam after many years » SLS, posted by zenhussy on June 21, 2009, at 12:43:24
>>>Resignation will take away motivation to fight.<<<
> So you view admin as a fight?Naw.
Do you?
> Could you elaborate or clarify?Naw.
Since I don't view it that way for myself, there is nothing for me to elaborate on.
However, learned helplessness is the result of the fight or flight response to stress being extinguished when the individual learns that it has no control over its environment. It is learned helplessness that I was commenting on as a model for "running out of steam" after so many years.
- Scott
Posted by Zeba on June 21, 2009, at 21:04:01
In reply to use of requests to be civil (PBC, etc.) » floatingbridge, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on June 21, 2009, at 14:42:08
Well I wish this were true, but I for one was blocked once with no warning. No caution, no warning, nothing--just blocked. I had not been recently blocked either. What I was seeing was that some people just got blocked and some got warnings. Don't know why that was.
Zeba
Posted by SLS on June 22, 2009, at 4:56:57
In reply to Rules - Recommended Changes, posted by SLS on June 20, 2009, at 6:44:41
I feel that there is too steep a learning curve for people who are just beginning to post on Psycho-Babble to understand and implement the rules of civility, regardless of how many time they read the FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions). To learn a whole new paradigm of communication can take several months, and we are expecting them to be exacting in their verbiage within a week. I see very intelligent, eloquent, generous, and well-meaning people leaving Psycho-Babble before they are here for a month.
- Scott
Posted by Justherself54 on June 22, 2009, at 10:42:42
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes, posted by SLS on June 22, 2009, at 4:56:57
Good point-I agree 100%
Posted by Nadezda on June 22, 2009, at 11:12:07
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes » SLS, posted by Justherself54 on June 22, 2009, at 10:42:42
One of my deepest concerns with blocks is that they are very unpredictable. I mean-- some are predictable-- if there';s been a contentious discussion for a while on a populous board-- or on politics--
I find that there are many ad hominem-ish or objectionable posts that get no response from the TPTB -- and I find myself amazed that they are let go without a mumur. While other posts, that may be sharp or defensive, or just badly worded so that some hostility does get through (or seem to)-- are blocked.
I know that enforcement can only be spotty-- and I don't see posts that don't violate some understandable norm (at least I understand it) blocked-- but I see many many posts that violate the norm left to stand. And so it becomes impossible to know, really, if you've crossed a line or not-- because the line just never gets drawn in a clear enough, consistent enough way.
I mean-- I know when a post has crossed it-- but there's a huge terrain when I think posts must have and yet nothing happens-- and this creates a lot of confusion-- and possibly makes people feel even more constrained than they need to.
I think that may be why many blocks come as a shock to the poster.-- They were kind of in the wrong place at the wrong time-- or someone complained-- and they get singled out-- and rightfully wonder-- how come?
So I do think this is a perhaps unresolveable, but really huge, persistent problem with the civility rules.
And I do personally remember some blocks which just seemed to me so badly timed-- so clearly about to hurt someone who was really in bad shape and just didn't need that to happen, too. I know all blocks hurt-- and all of us struggle-- but there are certain instances when people have just been so overwhelmed and in the midst of a moment that seemed especially hard-- and not the norm for them-- that it seemed that more discretion might have been exercised.
Now I know that this is a personal judgment-- and that we can't have rules that someone who's suffering more at a moment shouldn't be blocked-- I guess it's just that, to me, the rules are so intermittantly applied that it has always seemed to me-- you know-- why not just overlook this one? why not just let this one go, too?
I don't mean this as a reproof to the deputies-- at all. I guess I'm just saying that I do wish there were some other mechanisms in place other than PBCs and blocks to try to help people out of these places they get into--not only after, but before, blocks happen. I'm sure most of us know when someone else is in that danger zone-- and some of us might be enlisted to do more, not only privately, but for board.
I know it would take more work on the part of whoever administers the board. And we're apparently down in participation-- so more helpers aren't necessarily available.
There's no perfect world-- but I do think the blocks and the reactions of anger and hurt to blocks has started to really erode the sense of connection and hope that many had here. And maybe it really is time to rethink how all this has worked.
Nadezda
Posted by Dinah on June 22, 2009, at 16:33:26
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes, posted by Nadezda on June 22, 2009, at 11:12:07
Any inconsistency of result does not result from deputy choice or favoritism. It's just that since Dr. Bob and posters alike seem to prefer that we wait for reports and give people a chance to work things out, inconsistency will result. A return to the previous way where deputies looked for uncivil posts would improve consistency and increase admin actions.
There's something to be said for each way, but to be fair to the deputies, this is not a deputy issue. It's a policy issue.
Posted by Dinah on June 22, 2009, at 16:48:49
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes, posted by Nadezda on June 22, 2009, at 11:12:07
I'll confess that the "how come" question is something that has long concerned me about waiting for notifications (along with inconsistency). I would hate for posters to feel the need to ask that question. Just as I would hate for posters to feel pressured not to report for fear of being censured as a tattletale or poor sport.
Posted by Nadezda on June 23, 2009, at 11:06:04
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes » Nadezda, posted by Dinah on June 22, 2009, at 16:33:26
Hi, Dinah.
I certainly didn't mean to suggest in any way (underlined) that the deputies act from favoritism or choose to go after certain people-- or that Bob does.
Selection prosecution (to use a legal metaphor) is inevitable-- just in general-- plus, since the system often relies on posters to notify the deputies- it brings certain posts to their attention.
For entirely inevitable reasons, some people will be sanctioned and others won't, for what seem (to us, or me) to be possibly uncivil posts--- and in a small community like this, where we have close connections-- selective prosecution has a different impact from what it does in large, diffuse groups-- ie if someone in another part of NYC or Chicago is prosecuted, I don't know about it--or if I do, I have no personal connection to it; if someone on the psychology board in a thread that I haven't read gets blocked, I do-- and I probably have interacted and care about that person. So it has a different impact. So a necessary fact-- selective PBCing and blocking--- causes much more turmoil in a large percentage of participants-- which isn't true in life in general.
My point really, though, was only that: good reasons and intentions can create an experience of not understanding in the person who isn't on the inside and doesn't see how careful and considerate the deputies are really being-- doesn't fully know how the process works to lead to certain blocks or PBCs and not others.
It's no one's fault-- at all-- it's just very unfortunate when people are hurt and don't understand.
best, Nadezda
PS I do wonder, though, if people don't sometimes feel that the deputies are immune from PBCs and blocks-- and if this doesn't, whether true or not, also cause some tension.And it may be harder for deputies to know how it feels on the "outside" and I think it's up to posters like me to try to communicate what some of our anxieties and limitations of insight are. ("outside" and "inside" may be charged terms-- but I simply mean that the deputies are inside the process and the posters are outside it, and only see its results-- and often may misinterpret them)
PPS I really will stop soon with all this posting--But that last thing I want to do is to hurt your feelings or in any way be taken to suggest that you or the other deputies have anything other than my respect and thanks for how caringly and responsibly you do your job.
N
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2009, at 17:05:42
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes » Dinah, posted by Nadezda on June 23, 2009, at 11:06:04
> PS I do wonder, though, if people don't sometimes feel that the deputies are immune from PBCs and blocks-- and if this doesn't, whether true or not, also cause some tension.
I hope I never test Dr. Bob's policies on that matter. I try very hard to be civil. Perhaps moreso because I'm a deputy and know that Dr. Bob relies on me to act as I ought. But perhaps I would anyway. I always am very careful to follow rules and laws. And of course I have the great example of people like Muffled, who has inspired me to aim far beyond merely following the rules into cultivating generosity of spirit. Is it so hard to believe that deputies want to be civil, and even more than civil?
I would not be surprised if other deputies feel the same pressure to be more civil than is strictly required.
And of course, we know the rules...
That isn't a skill limited to deputies, though.
>
> And it may be harder for deputies to know how it feels on the "outside" and I think it's up to posters like me to try to communicate what some of our anxieties and limitations of insight are.Perhaps. I think there was one fill in deputy before me, and as I recall I gave him a very hard time, because Dr. Bob hadn't announced his role, and I was rather suspicious that since he hadn't announced it, it couldn't be true. But of course it was true. Sorry, Mark.
But all current deputies other than me have certainly been nondeputy posters. And I had plenty of experience (and continue to have plenty of experience) being a poster with Dr. Bob as administrator.
> PPS I really will stop soon with all this posting--But that last thing I want to do is to hurt your feelings or in any way be taken to suggest that you or the other deputies have anything other than my respect and thanks for how caringly and responsibly you do your job.
Nadezda, I hope you realize that the last thing I'd like you to do is stop posting. I'm always teasing you to return!
It is true that my feelings are hurt in some of these discussions. Sometimes I wonder if I've been a total fool to invest rather a lot of time and energy into Babble as both a deputy and more importantly a poster over all these many years, if I am perceived as being the problem at Babble rather than someone who supports not only the structure of Babble as a whole, but individual posters.
But I wasn't overly hurt by what you said, because I trust our relationship. If anything, I was emboldened to speak more freely than I usually do because I felt secure in your friendship.
Dinah
Posted by Kath on June 25, 2009, at 21:44:05
In reply to Rules - Recommended Changes, posted by SLS on June 20, 2009, at 6:44:41
Dear Sweetie Scott,
I'm sorry - no energy to read this thread.
It's not that I don't care.
Thanks for caring enough about PB to be involved.
xoxo Kath
Posted by yxibow on June 30, 2009, at 23:34:01
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes » yxibow, posted by SLS on June 21, 2009, at 6:17:41
> > And when I'm blocked for a week, I leave.
I don't HAVE to use my browser to point at dr-bob.org, I'm here for a specific reason, mostly to give my opinion of what I've learned in life and possibly educate people who might gain value from that.
I also know I don't know everything, and everyone has a different opinion.
> Sorry, Jay.
Well, its just how I feel....
> Now *that* is against the rules of civility.
How, its my choice to be here or not?> (It will earn you an extra week).
Why ? That's ludicrous, that I am annoyed to be blocked, therefore I should be sent to my roomo for even longer ? What lovely parenting.
> All kidding aside, you would be missed incredibly. Who else would there be to shovel all of the snow?
Someone who seems to like rules that can ban someone as long as Madoff's sentence, has steel balls, and loves Dr. Bob.
-- Jay
Posted by SLS on July 1, 2009, at 4:44:27
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes » SLS, posted by yxibow on June 30, 2009, at 23:34:01
> > > And when I'm blocked for a week, I leave.
> I don't HAVE to use my browser to point at dr-bob.org, I'm here for a specific reason, mostly to give my opinion of what I've learned in life and possibly educate people who might gain value from that.I know Jay. That's why I would consider it a trajedy if you were to leave the posting community for any reason.
> I also know I don't know everything, and everyone has a different opinion.
>
> > Sorry, Jay.
>
> Well, its just how I feel....I do appreciate that. I hadn't realize how impassioned you were about these issues. If I had, I doubt I would have tried to use comic relief to be so selfish as to want you to stay here.
> > Now *that* is against the rules of civility.
> How, its my choice to be here or not?Your leaving is against the rules of civility? Not returning will earn you an extra weak? Please tell me that you saw this as the joke it was meant to be.
> > (It will earn you an extra week).
>
> Why ? That's ludicrous, that I am annoyed to be blocked, therefore I should be sent to my roomo for even longer ? What lovely parenting.I guess not. :-(
> > All kidding aside, you would be missed incredibly. Who else would there be to shovel all of the snow?
> Someone who seems to like rules that can ban someone as long as Madoff's sentence, has steel balls, and loves Dr. Bob.I wasn't a victim of Madoff, so I can't empathize with their delight in the ruling.
As for the rest, they have turned sour by your post to me. I am saddened by this.
- Scott
Posted by yxibow on July 2, 2009, at 2:07:39
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes » yxibow, posted by SLS on July 1, 2009, at 4:44:27
I got the humour....
Let's just say its a love-hate-and-a-half relationship with the board...
I do come here to check up on what's going on, but loving the entire administration and how things are conducted I feel are mutually exclusive feelings.
I didn't mean to make you feel sour, Scott, but I'm just being honest.
-- Jay
This is the end of the thread.
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