![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 22 to 46 of 46. Go back in thread:
Posted by Frustratedmama on June 18, 2009, at 8:23:55
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction?, posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 6:23:10
I was wondering if this was an infraction? someone posted this in response to me earlier in the year and it still bothers me......
"A way has been revealed to me that could open a new life where you could sing a new song. You could have a new heart and a new spirit and a new mind, not like the one that you describe here, but one of peace and joy.
It has been revealed to me that there is a great gulf separating two worlds, one side the world of death and another side the world of life and peace. And it has been revealed to me that one can break on through to the other side."It was in response to feelings of suicide- I assumed the poster wanted me to go through with it- which might be the right choice at this time. I keep myself alive though for the sake of my child- but every time I read this post I wonder....
Posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 8:35:58
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction?, posted by Frustratedmama on June 18, 2009, at 8:23:55
> It was in response to feelings of suicide- I assumed the poster wanted me to go through with it- which might be the right choice at this time. I keep myself alive though for the sake of my child- but every time I read this post I wonder....
I'm certainly glad you didn't hurt yourself. I don't care what your motivations were. For what it's worth, in my way of thinking, I'm not sure that there is much guarantee of anything except for what exists in the moment, including joy and peace. I'll let the moderators (called "deputies" on this website) suggest how you should handle this sort of thing and where best to locate this post.
Thanks for your input.
- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on June 18, 2009, at 21:41:19
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction?, posted by Frustratedmama on June 18, 2009, at 8:23:55
Some infractions, IMHO:
Bullying (not strong opinion, mind you)
Encouraging or condoning suicide or other self-harming
Hate speech
Basic incivility (personal attacks)
I'm here because there is a high quality (information, civility) to the posting and because it is moderated. Unmoderated boards can devolve to a real free-for-all.
Candace
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on June 18, 2009, at 23:35:40
In reply to Rules - What constitutes an infraction?, posted by SLS on June 16, 2009, at 14:49:51
Can I tell Racer, is she still here? what happened....throught a vortex going through "this time.....boom! where am i?"
This poster was the most valued, in my case of ever being here. And ready to make some bent belief's straight, because there was stuff hitting the fan, 2006, 2007...2008. Eventaully that "person" who is "You", evolves, throw's all the residue of the past in the trash. Yet, you know all about, where you born, due! yet, the turmoil that was caused in a distress for help for someone to be there, couldnt take place even through it was "being made" by posters. Evacuation Sequence, back in 2006 failed. You know that movie Alien, if she didnt get out of that ship...., glad she wasnt me. Adios and Muchacho's! Should of left everything behind, forgot about it.
So is this reiencforing stronger rules of, everyone knows my writing, yet, back a couple years ago....it was diffrent through the brain, metaphorhizied into a better form. DNA adaption.
You know i'll post stuff, then...??? no one awnser's, well at least it was wonderful info for people to read, say "naaa" next post.
Deputy Rjlockhart?
after me Deputy Racer make up?
Racer......come back!
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 19, 2009, at 13:24:39
In reply to Rules - What constitutes an infraction?, posted by SLS on June 16, 2009, at 14:49:51
Infractions:
1. Actual words, not intent. In therapy, people learn that they can't mind read. One shouldn't have to mind read here.
2. Sarcasm directed towards a person. Sarcasm is easy to detect. Sarcasm employs actual words. Therefore, #2 is in line with #1.
3. Encouragement of suicidal behaviors, self-injurious behavior.
When an argument breaks out, what should happen? As Deputy Dinah did, so we should do: immediately move the argument over to administration (or a board specifically for hashing things out). As soon as someone has made a move to do that, no one should be able to continue to make comments about it after the fact in the main boards, and especially not as side notes in a message that is primarily not about the argument.
> Hopefully, the diplomatic talents of the moderators will obviate the need for giving warnings and enforcing rules by imposing blocks. However, there are bound to be some posting behaviors that will be in the best interests of the Psycho-Babble community to proscribe.
>
> The current punitive system might not be well conceived, but we can defer that issue for another thread.
>
> What posting behaviors do you think should constitute sanctionable infractions?
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2009, at 12:27:58
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction? » SLS, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 19, 2009, at 13:24:39
> Infractions:
>
> 1. Actual words, not intent. In therapy, people learn that they can't mind read. One shouldn't have to mind read here.
>
> 2. Sarcasm directed towards a person. Sarcasm is easy to detect. Sarcasm employs actual words. Therefore, #2 is in line with #1.
I don't understand how one could possibly detect sarcasm without some supposition of the writer's intent. From where I sit, that sets #2 in opposition to #1.gg
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 21, 2009, at 19:52:14
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction? » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2009, at 12:27:58
Oh, you're right. Sarcasm is *so* hard to detect.
(My tone of voice for demonstrative purposes only and not for offense).
> > Infractions:
> >
> > 1. Actual words, not intent. In therapy, people learn that they can't mind read. One shouldn't have to mind read here.
> >
> > 2. Sarcasm directed towards a person. Sarcasm is easy to detect. Sarcasm employs actual words. Therefore, #2 is in line with #1.
>
>
> I don't understand how one could possibly detect sarcasm without some supposition of the writer's intent. From where I sit, that sets #2 in opposition to #1.
>
> gg
Posted by SLS on June 21, 2009, at 20:13:01
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction? » gardenergirl, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 21, 2009, at 19:52:14
> Oh, you're right. Sarcasm is *so* hard to detect.
>
> (My tone of voice for demonstrative purposes only and not for offense).Sarcasm is sort of like a pornography. It is hard to define for legal purposes, but I know it when I see it.
It really is a tough call, but Dr. Bob seems to make sarcasm one of his pet peeves. I guess he feels that he knows it when he sees it, too.
Unless the sarcasm is completely undisguised, it is difficult to pull out any one sentence from a post as an example of the sarcasm contained within it. Yet, it is sarcasm that can sometimes cut the deepest.
- Scott
Posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2009, at 20:41:19
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction? » gardenergirl, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 21, 2009, at 19:52:14
My point is that you can't have #1 and #2. You can't have it both ways. If you indeed want to only consider the words themselves, then you cannot make assumptions or inferences about tone and/or intent.
gg
Posted by Phillipa on June 21, 2009, at 21:39:17
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction?, posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2009, at 20:41:19
An example for me is that being from CT originally and now being in the South what up North wasn't sarcasm there but is here. Constanting insulting my husband but that is not the intent. Boy if again up there don't think I could again spar every conversation. We use hands up there too down here none. Phillipa
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 22, 2009, at 0:54:07
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction?, posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2009, at 20:41:19
I got what you meant. My point, by example, is that words have connotative and denotative meaning. So #1 and #2 are not mutually exclusive, at all.
> My point is that you can't have #1 and #2. You can't have it both ways. If you indeed want to only consider the words themselves, then you cannot make assumptions or inferences about tone and/or intent.
>
> gg
>
Posted by gardenergirl on June 22, 2009, at 1:18:53
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction? » gardenergirl, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 22, 2009, at 0:54:07
> I got what you meant. My point, by example, is that words have connotative and denotative meaning. So #1 and #2 are not mutually exclusive, at all.
And so if I were to reply with something like, "Gosh, you're so smart", how would you determine whether I am being sarcastic or sincere using just the words themselves?
gg
>
> > My point is that you can't have #1 and #2. You can't have it both ways. If you indeed want to only consider the words themselves, then you cannot make assumptions or inferences about tone and/or intent.
> >
> > gg
> >
>
>
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 22, 2009, at 2:16:40
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction? » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by gardenergirl on June 22, 2009, at 1:18:53
If you replied with that statement only, just "Gosh you're so smart," that would be sarcasm. Who uses "gosh" any more without serious emoticon action?
Gosh, this is fun.
^ Sarcasm or not?
> > I got what you meant. My point, by example, is that words have connotative and denotative meaning. So #1 and #2 are not mutually exclusive, at all.
>
> And so if I were to reply with something like, "Gosh, you're so smart", how would you determine whether I am being sarcastic or sincere using just the words themselves?
>
> gg
>
>
> >
> > > My point is that you can't have #1 and #2. You can't have it both ways. If you indeed want to only consider the words themselves, then you cannot make assumptions or inferences about tone and/or intent.
> > >
> > > gg
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by SLS on June 22, 2009, at 4:29:41
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction? » gardenergirl, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 22, 2009, at 2:16:40
> If you replied with that statement only, just "Gosh you're so smart," that would be sarcasm. Who uses "gosh" any more without serious emoticon action?
ME!!!
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 22, 2009, at 5:13:09
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction?, posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2009, at 20:41:19
> My point is that you can't have #1 and #2. You can't have it both ways. If you indeed want to only consider the words themselves, then you cannot make assumptions or inferences about tone and/or intent.
>
> gg
>Do you feel that sarcasm should be judged as being uncivil when it is putting down another person? Can such sarcasm be identified and demonstrated as being such for the community so as to justify the earning of a PBC or block? Some sarcastic attacks and put-downs are very obvious to me, but are difficult to prove as being such by pulling out any one sentence for identification.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 22, 2009, at 5:24:13
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction? » gardenergirl, posted by SLS on June 22, 2009, at 5:13:09
Should it be an infraction to call attention to one poster that they might have been uncivil to another poster? I guess any such behavior can be looked at as an accusation. If so, then the only way to accomplish the same thing is to notify administration. That seems reasonable.
Will administration hear the complaints of a poster if he is acting as a third party?
- Scott
Posted by Deputy Dinah on June 22, 2009, at 8:13:54
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction?, posted by SLS on June 22, 2009, at 5:24:13
> Will administration hear the complaints of a poster if he is acting as a third party?
Yes, definitely. Dr. Bob encourages posters to use the notification system, although depending on circumstances, deputies may wait to see if posters work it out between themselves.
Sarcasm can be difficult to determine. I know there have been times when people have been sure I am being sarcastic when I am not. Perhaps posters could ask for clarification if they are unsure of intent? Civilly and with, to paraphrase Alex, the most charitable assumptions possible?
Dr. Bob has been asking for posters to encourage each other to apologize lately, and that does leave the poster attempting this at the risk of being uncivil themselves. From what guidance he has given us, Dr. Bob has more in mind the idea that posters would say something like "I like to have you around here, and would hate to see you blocked." rather than something like "You know, that was terribly uncivil, could you please apologize."
I foresee problems even with that since, unless the poster has stated in his post that he believes there is a possibility that he will be blocked for his post, there is perhaps an implied accusation? It could be done of course, but with care to the civility guidelines and sensitivity and respect to the poster.
There is also the possibility that it will not be particularly well received.
I think there is some middle ground too, where posters can explain what they believe to be a misunderstanding (My reading of xxx's post was that they meant this, not that.). I think posters already do that.
I hope this clarifies, and Dr. Bob is of course free to correct any misinterpretations on my part.
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 22, 2009, at 12:14:00
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction? » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by SLS on June 22, 2009, at 4:29:41
Ahhhh! Gosh, I love that. Huh. You have inspired me to use "gosh." I just used gosh. In a nonironic, nonsarcastic way. Huzzah!
> > If you replied with that statement only, just "Gosh you're so smart," that would be sarcasm. Who uses "gosh" any more without serious emoticon action?
>
> ME!!!
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by Phillipa on June 22, 2009, at 20:10:38
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction? » gardenergirl, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 22, 2009, at 2:16:40
I use gosh all the time and it's not sarcasm it's just a word I use. Phillipa
Posted by 10derHeart on June 22, 2009, at 20:43:09
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction? » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by Phillipa on June 22, 2009, at 20:10:38
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2009, at 22:39:00
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction? » twinleaf, posted by gobbledygook on June 17, 2009, at 14:33:02
Dr. Bob has asked me if I would like to clarify these facts myself and I have agreed to do so. I've run this reply by him.
> My perception is that the rules have been carried out inconsistently and subjectively, with one person having the power to be "judge, jury, and
> executioner" when the warnings/blocks are issued. Even though the warnings/blocks are issued with the statement: "The administrator is always
> free to override deputy decisions...feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error," how many cases can Bob actually review
> with his busy schedule? And when he does review a case, Bob is not around enough to keep up with and understand all the dynamics of the boards
> to know the details of who and what led to the warnings and the blocks - leaving him to rely on one person's judgment.Ava, am I perhaps the one person you are speaking of?
You have no way of knowing of course, but I wanted to clarify the facts.
There are three deputies. We rarely if ever act without at least a majority and usually a consensus of whatever deputies are around. Dr. Bob often weighs in before deputies actually do anything. And we inform him in several ways of what we have done as soon as we've done it. If he doesn't get a chance to weigh in immediately, he nearly always is brought up to speed within a couple of weeks at the most and gives us feedback as he sees fit. We don't take that many actions that he is unable to do this. At one time, he might have been absent longer, but at this point he stays in touch at least that often.
Also, posters have unfettered access to Dr. Bob. His email is at the bottom of each page, and the deputies encourage posters to bring any concerns they have about deputy actions, or any concerns about Babble to Dr. Bob directly by email.
Only one person has unlimited power on this site, and that person is Dr. Bob. Dr. Bob is aware of and reverses any deputy action he disapproves of. He might not have chosen the same actions we do in every instance, because reasonable people can disagree. But if he thinks we're wrong he reverses us.
With deputies, it is rarely *one* person's judgement. Only when only one person is around which isn't that often.
Deputies do do their best to do what Dr. Bob would have them do at any given point of time, to the best of our ability. I know I am scrupulous, and I know my fellow deputies to be scrupulous, in acting on the facts according to our understanding of Dr. Bob's wishes.
And this just may be me, but I don't see the deputies as being less reasonable than Dr. Bob. My recollection of the days of Dr. Bob's continuous presence do not coincide with a glorious place of freedom and peace. Dr. Bob did his best. We do our best to do what Dr. Bob wishes.
I was hoping deputies could be left out of this this time, since surely it is clear that Dr. Bob knows and approves of our actions and that any objection to us is therefore an objection to him. We're his *deputies* carrying out what he wishes to be done as best we can based on precedent and his direct conversations with us. The buck stops with him, and I would hope that the Admin discussions would reflect that.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 23, 2009, at 23:48:40
In reply to Re: Rules - What constitutes an infraction?, posted by Frustratedmama on June 18, 2009, at 8:23:55
> I was wondering if this was an infraction? someone posted this in response to me earlier in the year and it still bothers me......
>
> FrustratedmamaI'm sorry that disturbed you. Concerns about specific posts should, however, be directed to us using the "notify administrators" button so those posters don't feel accused.
--
> > How about helping the bullies, who are, after all, also pediatric patients? [schools are suspending and expelling bullies] without paying attention to helping them and their families learn to function in a different way.
> >
> > Perri Klass, M.D.
>
> zenhussyHow to support bullies without supporting bullying? Maybe:
Show them how they might interpret things more charitably. Encourage them to apologize. Suggest they not address those they can't get along with. Help them avoid being suspended or expelled.
--
> At this point, I am more concerned about the rules/guidelines for the administrators.
>
> The real hurt I've experienced in myself and observed in others has come from the way the rules are interpreted and carried out.
>
> My perception is that the rules have been carried out inconsistently and subjectively, with one person having the power to be "judge, jury, and executioner" when the warnings/blocks are issued.
>
> Consequently the current mechanisms and rules in place make me feel fearful and distrustful of the admins judgments ... it is ultimately the poster who suffers through the humiliation and rejection in the end ... when the consequences of these errors result in painful psychological harm, I have to question whether giving one person all of this authority is wise.
>
> gobbledygookThere's inevitably subjectivity (and therefore inconsistency) in how the guidelines are enforced. It occurs to me that the flip side of me being so powerful is posters being so vulnerable. Have any of you been hurt, humiliated, or rejected by someone who had a lot of authority?
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on June 24, 2009, at 4:06:31
In reply to Re: bullies and authority figures, posted by Dr. Bob on June 23, 2009, at 23:48:40
> subjectivity (and therefore inconsistency)
that doesn't follow
> Have any of you been hurt, humiliated, or rejected by someone who had a lot of authority?
yes. by you.
Posted by Kath on July 12, 2009, at 19:27:21
In reply to Re: bullies and authority figures, posted by Dr. Bob on June 23, 2009, at 23:48:40
> Have any of you been hurt, humiliated, or rejected by someone who had a lot of authority?
~ ~ ~ Maybe I have a REALLY warped view of Life, but I can't imagine ANYone who hasn't, at some point in their life!
Kath
Posted by Kath on July 12, 2009, at 19:35:42
In reply to me, too, for years!! :-) (nm) » Phillipa, posted by 10derHeart on June 22, 2009, at 20:43:09
Although sometimes I feel a little silly when it slips out. I wonder why!
Kath
This is the end of the thread.
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